MSX help.

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akumajo
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MSX help.

Post by akumajo »

Hi

This year I would like to add another piece of hardware to play some MSX/MSX2 games in "real" condition.

I already googled but I would like "players" opinions. The other problem is that I know NOTHING about MSX :).

So what do I need to play MSX/MSX2 with best condition (audio, video, controls).

Thanks !
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The situation is quite similar in many ways to the X68000. The controller pinout is the same as for the X68000, and I think Atari-style 2 button pads work on either system without modification. Micomsoft released some fairly well respected controllers, although I haven't looked into modifying them with more modern joysticks (I have a XE-1 ST2 pulled apart somewhere because I was too lazy to find the molybdenum grease for relubricating it). It's also possible to rewire, or build a converter to use, a 6-button Mega Drive pad for use on the MSX/X68000. I also suspect that FM Towns controllers might work.

About audio, there are some various fancy things out there like the Moonsound card but it was not supported by Japanese games (it couldn't have been; it was only released in 1995). Konami games either use the internal MSX sound or they have, like the Famicom, their own internal sound expansions (SCC is this, I believe). A couple games make use of both the cartridge port and the floppy drive at the same time.

The base hardware specification is what matters most for MSX software, like the X68000. At the same time, and again like the X68000, you get diminishing returns from buying higher-end units - high RAM units serve no apparent purpose for gaming, and only a few games make use of the newer MSX specifications. As you know there are roughly four lines: Original 1983 specification MSX, then c. ~1986 MSX2 (this already should cover 80%+ of games), MSX2+ (99%+ of games), and finally the MSX Turbo-R (released by Philips in Europe, and Panasonic in Japan; maybe somebody else, but most players had bowed out by this time). You have to wonder if Micomsoft got some inspiration here for the naming of a certain line of video peripherals.

The situation is a bit more complicated than it might seen. Many games advertise MSX2 *and* MSX2+ on the front, and some of the good unique games on the system are included: Space Manbow and Aleste 2 for example, and Undead Line too. For these you can assume that they will run on a MSX2 but they may be somewhat nicer on the 2+, perhaps improved scrolling. (I honestly forget what the differences are, and they come down to the individual implementation of any extra features; I didn't exhaustively test anything on MSX2 because I didn't have a floppy drive, or many games when I had a regular MSX2 - that said I would enjoy getting the old black-and-orange Panasonic unit I had again, complete with jellybean controller, for old times' sake).

Only a few games use the Turbo-R. Undead Line, on a 2+ machine, has a lot of slowdown in spots. I don't actually know if the Turbo cures this slowdown, and the game doesn't advertise Turbo-R compatibility on the front - it probably doesn't. Some Ys game might use the Turbo-R, but probably this isn't the best way to play that series anyway after the release of those games on CD-ROM formats.

About video, I haven't looked into it much. I was already pleased enough with the video quality merely from composite video, but they do also offer some kind of RGB pinout (I'll have to look at that sometime, but honestly I don't care much).

Aside from the Turbo-R units (rklok on eBay is asking too much), there are a couple units I am fond of: The Sony HB F1-XV and the F1-XDJ. I have never been able to find any hardware differences in the units' descriptions online; I personally have an XDJ. It has many great features like a relatively large, two-level set of Kanji ROMs (4K?) and, more relevantly for us, sliders for ren-sha (autofire) as well as hardware pause, CPU speed limiter (which doesn't work in all games, however), and of course the important second cartridge port. Aside from its inability to run Undead Line at full speed (which is probably a problem with all MSXes), I'm a big fan of this unit. It has pretty good build quality and is quite rigid despite all the heavy stuff inside. It also looks very sexy, especially if you find one that has the shiny advertising sticker still on top. My only regret is I don't have a box for mine.

So to boil things down:
MSX - only good for playing old-fashioned single-screen games
MSX2 - better, can play Contra on it, as well as some early choppy scrolling shooters like Nemesis II (why did I buy the European copy after I had the Japanese one?)
MSX2+ - probably all you need for 99% of games
MSX Turbo-R - has a really strange but apparently stable new implementation of a faster CPU with some tweaks to memory fetches to ensure compatibility with older stuff. Kind of hacky, not as elegant as a simple speed switch. Doubtful it cures slowdown in games like Aleste 2 or Undead Line. Might have some worthwhile golf game, not sure.

My quite-good-enough setup:
Sony HB F1-XDJ in racing black and grey with red detailing. Its keyboard is quite good for shooting games actually.
Micomsoft XE-1 ST2 (XE-1 AP looks almost like Kirby ate a modern Dual Shock style controller but unless you love MSX or, more likely, X68000 flight sims, it doesn't look very useful)
Games: No SD Snatcher, Snatcher, or Metal Gear 2, nor even Goemon or penguin adventures, but plenty of good stuff regardless: Dracula; Shimon Goes Metroiding, Aleste 2, Nemesis 2, Undead Line, Contra (like Dracula, another almost-made it semi-port of a real classic, although this one bears even less visual resemblance to the original, and although it plays more like it's supposed to be a Contra game, it's also a single-screen game, i.e. you leave the screen to move on), and Space Manbow. Sometime I would like to get more stuff, but Space Manbow and Aleste 2 alone make me happy. Not sure if Aleste has less slowdown than the SMS version, but it might!
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Re: MSX help.

Post by SuperDeadite »

I have a Turbo-R. It's a nice machine if you can afford it. Turbo-R only games are few, but some of the doujins that use it such as Multi-Plex (true 60fps hori shooter!) are awesome.

Undeadline does not officially support the Turbo-R. However, there is a fan made boot disk which forces the game into R800 mode, and then it runs slowdown free, a very nice improvement. You can actually use this bootdisk to force any floppy game into R800 mode, some work better then others though, gives a nice boost to Valis II, still choppy but it's an improvement.

These days if you don't live in Japan though, MSX is a very expensive system if you want original games. It's the NeoGeo of the computer world. Even games that are identical across other computer platforms like PC-88 always cost at least double on MSX. Still a lot of fun can be had though.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Perhaps you can shed some light on something discussed years ago - there was some uncertainty about which version of Snatcher was "original," the MSX or PC- series one. Talking with somebody at the time I think they became convinced that one of the versions clearly had its colors ported from the others (I take this to mean the palette conversion looked less than optimal on the one system - the PC- series one I think).

Interesting note about Undead Line. I had always suspected that it would run faster if it could run on the R800 taking advantage of the extra speed, but it's certainly interesting it would not suffer from speedup-related problems. Others had assured me it didn't help. Well, little did they know!

In my view, it's worth it for a few games (including Nemesis or Gradius 2 / 3, although Nemesis/Gradius 2 might be better played as Nemesis '90 Kai, except the original MSX music is quite good), and the rest you can probably just ignore.

Speaking of the cost of games, Rudolf Lechleitner's MSX page has a handy "Disk-Manager" program, which I do not attempt to use for backing up MSX disks, but I have successfully written a few disks with it. It's a good way to "try before you buy," shame that TOSEC MSX is filled with a bunch of trained and intro'd images.
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akumajo
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Re: MSX help.

Post by akumajo »

thanks, many things to check now !

I also heard about OneChip MSX...

So yeah, MSX2+ seems to be the better choice and there are not many models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MS ... rs#MSX2.2B). Just to be sure, no MSX2 game on MSX1 hardware right ?

edit : it seems that HB-F1 have RGB output, maybe it works with this cable http://www.retrogamingcables.com/msx-tu ... -sale.html

The controls are VERY expensive and they seems too big... think I will go with a NES/MEGADRIVE hacked pad. The question is, how many buttons are supported (Start,Select,A,B, more ?).
SuperDeadite
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Re: MSX help.

Post by SuperDeadite »

Sounds like you're looking at silly European controllers. 95% of Japanese MSX pads are Famicom pad clones. Quality varies though. System only supports 2 buttons. I like the good old Panasonic PowerPads. Tiny, but comfortable and the later models of individual autofire sliders for both buttons.

As for Snatcher I'm not sure which came first, but i'd bet on the NEC version for sure. NEC versions were the originals the vast majority of the time.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Yeah, there is a 9-pin RGB plug. Luck would have it that Mr. Firebug (of the superguns) would have wired up a 9-pin cable for me, but apparently with a different pinout (no video via XRGB2 or 2+). I'm sure it works of course.

I tried composite (mono audio, also; this is standard for MSX games) and my Wega gives a beautiful picture. Nothing to complain about there. One of those rare cases where I don't see any benefit to the RGB setup because of the limited resolution yet stable picture via composite. Maybe the Space Manbow intro doesn't give any situations for displaying dot crawl or interference effects, though.
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rolins
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Re: MSX help.

Post by rolins »

If you're new to the MSX then you need only 2 things: (1) MSX2+ w/ bulit-in disk drive and (2) MegaFlashRom SCC+. This will be enough to play everything minus Turbo-R games. The MegaFlashROM SCC+ allows you to play roms on your MSX, and with the SCC+ chip included you can listen to the music in games like Metal Gear 2 and Snatcher.
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akumajo
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Re: MSX help.

Post by akumajo »

MegaFlashRom is a linker ? Well I could be interested but I will still buy the games after ...

So, MSX2+ + LINKER + RGB CABLE + 2 HACKED FAMICOM PAD (OR ANYTHING ELSE?). Should cost up to 400€ I think.
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Artemio
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Artemio »

I recently acquired mine, after having about 10 games for almost a decade and not biting the bullet on the hardware. I couldn't be more happy about the choice. I got a Sony HB F1XDJ

I made an adapter for the Mega Drive 6 button controller, and it works pretty well, It might not be pretty, but it was cheap and easy to build.

And yes, it looks stunning via RGB. A couple of friends were playing "Castlevania" the other night and they were impressed by it, through an XRGB-3.

Some pics:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And regarding Snatcher, I believe that the PC-88 was the first (original) release. It did came out earlier the same year, and I guess it was the original target platform. A few more pics at the link.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Oh, I've never seen the box before. Very nice. Looks great just in composite though, I think Sony designed this one very well.

I think between us we've got all the major releases covered. The Snatchers are a bit text heavy for me and the Metal Gears just weren't high on my list at the time I got it.
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Opethian
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Opethian »

those sony HitBit models are some of the easiest FDD drive to fix if the belts ever turn to gum. I have the same model. wish to have a Turbo-R someday
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hey, this guy has apparently put a belt-less drive in an XDJ:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ordenador-Sony- ... 3a7ea84ae8
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akumajo
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Re: MSX help.

Post by akumajo »

This gamepad looks good :).

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SuperDeadite
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Re: MSX help.

Post by SuperDeadite »

That pad is TINY, but still good. I have the slightly bigger version with turbo sliders for each button. (There is also one with just a single slider). I quite like it, but the down direction doesn't respond too well these days sadly.
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Opethian
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Re: MSX help.

Post by Opethian »

I have that same MSX pad and it is a hand cramper unless you have children hands,.
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