Understanding Scrolling Shooters

[Special World]

Obviously you guys already understand shooters, but I wrote up an article to try and get people interested in the genre:

http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... -shooters/

I mostly just want to promote discussion, but I'd be happy if you guys had friends who could benefit from this. Let me know what you think.

What games would you have chosen, and what would you have asked people to think about? How would you explain the genre to newcomers without turning them off?

ED: I've followed up the initial article with a guide to accessible, affordable scrolling shooters: https://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2015/ ... -shooters/

[Vyxx]

[quote="Special]and what would you have asked people to think about? How would you explain the genre to newcomers without turning them off?[/quote]

I'm sure I'm not the normal kind, but for me the original appeal was the whole "you can't do that".

I saw a second DDP loop and someone said to me there's no way I could come close. They were right, but that brought me into the shmup world, playing for survival. Once I learned about scoring systems I just picked shmups accordingly to what I believed I would enjoy the most.

[KAI]

Not a single word about Touhou. I love you.

I like to tell my friends that they don't have the balls to play these games the right way.

[Squire Grooktook]

Read through it quickly, and I don't see anything I remotely disagree with. I think you hit the nail on the head pretty much.

I'll have to show this to some of my friends.

[Shelcoof]

Originally I had planned to scroll through the article really quickly but for some reason it ended up being a fun read.

Really appreciate it. The screen shots inserted between each paragraph was a nice touch as well.

[emphatic]

DAT LIVINGROOM.

[trap15]

Fantastic article, will be showing to friends.

[Special World]

@ Vyxx and KAI: Hah, maybe I took the wrong approach then. I should have titled it "You'll never understand scrolling shooters" with paragraphs headed "You're playing it wrong" and "You'll never score with anyone." ;D

And yeah, not huge on Touhou. I don't hate 'em like a lot of people here seem too, though. Truth be told, I've only played Perfect Cherry Blossom. Been meaning to play Phantasmagoria of Flower View, since that sounds pretty cool. They seem solid, just not amazing. I'd probably play them more if they were on 360, for some reason I hate playing on my PC so I only really play Garegga or Batrider when I get that Raizing urge.

@ Shelcoof, Squire Grooktook, and trap15: Thanks! I'm glad you guys like it, it always takes me 20 minutes to finally hit that "publish" button. I always ask myself "is this article good?" and then sit staring at it for a while. So it's great to just hear "I enjoyed this." Keep that in mind when you're reading other blogs as well. People love to hear this, because nobody ever comments and it feels like you're posting into an empty auditorium.

@ emphatic: Not my livingroom It is my dream to own an arcade cabinet and Futari Black, though. And Ketsui and Garegga and Pink Sweets...

[CptRansom]

Great write-up!

[emphatic]

@ emphatic: Not my livingroom It is my dream to own an arcade cabinet and Futari Black, though. And Ketsui and Garegga and Pink Sweets...

It's MY livingroom.

[Special World]

@ emphatic: Not my livingroom It is my dream to own an arcade cabinet and Futari Black, though. And Ketsui and Garegga and Pink Sweets...

It's MY livingroom.

Your living room was so cool that I couldn't help but put it in my article. Congrats on living the dream :O

[Squire Grooktook]

Thanks! I'm glad you guys like it, it always takes me 20 minutes to finally hit that "publish" button. I always ask myself "is this article good?" and then sit staring at it for a while. So it's great to just hear "I enjoyed this." Keep that in mind when you're reading other blogs as well. People love to hear this, because nobody ever comments and it feels like you're posting into an empty auditorium.

I actually read a lot of your other articles and reviews afterward, and liked them very much. I was going to comment, but I was busy with homework and didn't have time to start rambling lol. I'll have to do so later.

[Shelcoof]

I actually read a lot of your other articles and reviews afterward, and liked them very much. I was going to comment, but I was busy with homework and didn't have time to start rambling lol. I'll have to do so later.

I didn't know you had more lol
I'll take a look at them as well when I get the chance.

I really do like the layout. Very easy on the eyes.

You should consider doing something similar with RPGs, Fighters, Racers etc... if you haven't already done so.

[emphatic]

Sorry, forgot to say - good article, man.

[Weak Boson]

Yep great read. I will smear it round the net as best I can. Sincerely, though, I must thank you. The more I get into shmups the harder it seems to be to articulate their appeal. I just don't have the faculties to explain this madness.

[Special World]

@ Squire: Thanks! Loving all this positivity. I actually try to keep my blog's focus on positive aspects of games rather than negative, since there's already so much negativity on the internet. This post actually evolved out of an idea I had for explaining why lots of scrolling shooter fans don't like Sine Mora, but I think it turned out a lot better without that aspect bogging it down.

@ Shelcoof: Yeah, I tried to keep the layout basic so I could liven it up with my banner :p To be honest, I play a metric ton of almost every type of game, but shooters are really the only genre that I feel I know enough worth imparting. It's a matter of loving the genre combined with there not being much discussion about it. I could say a lot about other genres, but there's already so much out there that everyone's heard it before.

@ Weak Boson, emphatic, and CptRansom: Thanks I really tried hard to think about what might be interesting games for newcomers. I figured giving them the widest scope of shooters was a good idea. Star Parodier, Twinkle Star Sprites, and Battle Garegga might look weird juxtaposed with one another, but I think it's good to combat the idea that shooters are a stagnant, samey genre.

[BPzeBanshee]

Adding my +1 for a rather good article. After the other one I read the other day (from a different author/website) where it was all artfag Touhou garbage I didn't exactly have high expectations, so it's quite refreshing to have good writers around.

[Special World]

Adding my +1 for a rather good article. After the other one I read the other day (from a different author/website) where it was all artfag Touhou garbage I didn't exactly have high expectations, so it's quite refreshing to have good writers around.

I didn't think that article was so bad, but the more I write, the more I feel that the "academic style" or writing is kind of a lazy default mode. It looks like a really intelligent style when you first start writing essays, but once you've got a better idea of how to get your point across, it begins to feel a bit bloodless. I do veer into it from time to time, but then I sit down and edit and just cut out large segments and sometimes dump entire articles. The author did have some good passages and points, but there was too much Touhou. I have like 10 awesome Cave poster images thanks to Rancor's site, but I felt I couldn't possibly use more than two without totally unbalancing the article.

I need to get those printed out, they're too cool to leave on my computer. Thanks for reading, Banshee!

[Ed Oscuro]

I can commiserate with you on writing too much. I thought the article was very inviting in tone and covered many essential points. I did have a couple criticisms though, mainly related to length and content:

First, the "Not Playing It Wrong" section discusses a concept (1CC for "quality of life" ) which is essentially similar to the concept the next block of paragraphs introduces (playing for score). This calls for a segue, and also presents an opportunity to pare down the word count.

Content-wise, in the "Understanding Bullet Hell" section, I thought I was anticipating what you'd focus on because you mention the various opportunities presented by masses of bullets - but then you did not mention that bullets themselves often do not act like traditional bullets and even become scoring items, which is what is not immediately apparent from the visual spectacle. To really appreciate these kinds of games and feel they are approachable, knowing if you can cancel bullets (for example) is key to making the leap past fear.

[Special World]

Good points, Ed. I did think it was quite long when I was writing it, and I know sometimes that can drag. Unfortunately, whenever I try to pare things down too much I end up sounding like Game Informer, saying things like they're obvious and not really backing them up. So for my writing style, I think it's better to say a little too much rather than a little too little. I try to pare it down a good bit though, and look out for areas that are needlessly wordy.

For the 1CCing and scoring, I do think there are a lot of ways that they can and should be linked in people's minds. I tried to touch on it a little bit, but for me the main focus is on getting people to understand why both facets of the game are important in and of themselves. A lot of new players might understand the 1CC but not the scoring, and I think blurring the lines too much can end up tipping their importance one way or the other. There are 1CC motivations for scoring, and scoring motivation for the 1CC. But they're both interesting aspects of the game even divorced from one another, and I really wanted to make them two distinct ideas for new players to focus on.

I tried to highlight that the bullets didn't just act like normal bullets but have an organic life of their own, but maybe I didn't take it as far as I should have. They're really something else entirely, and it's gonna be hard for people to grasp that unless it's really delved into or they see it for themselves. For me though, I never considered the scoring angle to be an aspect of the bullets themselves. I may say "those bullets cancel," but what I mean is "those bullets can be cancelled." It's not a property of the bullets, but an outside force manipulating them, whether that be the scoring system or the player. To me, they lack the agency to cancel themselves, and it's actually kind of blowing my mind to think about. I just never thought of it that way. I still don't really think of it in that mode, but it's kind of absurd that it's something I never even considered. I think about the bullets patterns as having life, but never the bullets themselves. It seems like a sort of self-termination or transformation. You prove yourself worthy and the bullets transmute in servitude. Pretty wild.

More than anything, it's just that the writing takes me where it goes. I brainstorm what I might write about and then put some stuff on the page as well as I know how. So if I thought about it, I'd probably touch on those ideas, but I wrote myself somewhere else. But thanks for giving me my "interesting thought of the day," in regards to those bullets, even if I got carried away with it. And thanks for reading, and providing insightful criticisms on my article. It's hard to find meaningful criticism on the internet. I guess it's because there's so much breadth of thought, but here we're on a website where we automatically have some small sort of common ground.

And now to decrease the length of this post by hitting submit.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

+1 for Good job on a well written article

[louisg]

That was a really good article. The only thing that popped out at me was a mention of Battle Garegga without discussion of rank, which seems to be the heart of that game.

[moh]

DAT LIVINGROOM.

excuse me while I change my underwear

[Special World]

@ Trevhead: Thanks

@ louisg: I did discuss rank, I just didn't call it "rank." I find with a lot of genre-specific terms, it's better to describe it than to use insider jargon. If I told somebody "this game has rank," I don't expect they'd know what I mean. They'd think maybe it was a level-up system like Halo's matchmaking service, where you get ranked numerically according to your skill level and playtime. So I described it more as an increase in difficulty as you gain more points and powerups. I guess I didn't address the fact that it can also get easier, but I was trying to explain the game and ask questions in a short paragraph, so it wasn't all there. I am just one man, and it would take some sort of deity to fully describe Battle Garegga in one (short) paragraph :p

Thanks for reading and responding! I love getting the chance to talk with you guys about this, and I hope you're getting something out of it as well.

[Special World]

Wrote up a Ginga Force review: http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... nga-force/

Loving the game, both in story mode and score attack.

I also posted it in the Ginga Force topic, but I wanted people to be able to find it once it falls off the most recent page of posts. I'd like to highlight these games when I can, get people interested in the genre, and promote discussion, so I hope it doesn't feel spammy that I post here. I just know I don't regularly check the reviews section, and I often lose certain posts that I wanted to keep referencing.

Anyways, I hope you guys enjoy the review. More people need to check out this great game, and Eschatos as well.

[Hibachi]

Really enjoyed the article but from a western standard point (and more specifically my wife) it's the click clack of my arcade stick and what she calls the silly speech and noises (upon death) that put her off. Fortunately most of this can usually be turned down but I think the mechanics usually go over an average gamers head and I think that's a by product of the 'Duck and cover to rejuvenate health' mentality of modern gaming. They just blow stuff up for however long the game is then move onto the next unless it has a robust online multiplayer. I can be guilty of that too but due to I think to my age (38) an STG should be savoured and enjoyed as to me, it is much less throw away than the usual blockbuster.

I can be guilty of being an achievement whore on some games but still love playing for score on the STG's as to me that's what it's about.

[Special World]

Really enjoyed the article but from a western standard point (and more specifically my wife) it's the click clack of my arcade stick and what she calls the silly speech and noises (upon death) that put her off. Fortunately most of this can usually be turned down but I think the mechanics usually go over an average gamers head and I think that's a by product of the 'Duck and cover to rejuvenate health' mentality of modern gaming. They just blow stuff up for however long the game is then move onto the next unless it has a robust online multiplayer. I can be guilty of that too but due to I think to my age (38) an STG should be savoured and enjoyed as to me, it is much less throw away than the usual blockbuster.

I can be guilty of being an achievement whore on some games but still love playing for score on the STG's as to me that's what it's about.

I love the crap out of scrolling shooters, but I feel there are a lot of things devs could be doing to get people invested in these games without compromising the core gameplay. We see games like Sine Mora that really just don't capture the appeal of the genre, and a lot of the time we abstract that into thinking nothing can be done to hook new players while pleasing old players. I think that Ginga Force does a really good job of proving that a traditional story and progression-based unlocks can really add to the feel of a shooter, and that new ideas can flourish within the genre. Sure, a lot of people just don't have the patience to play these games for more than five seconds, but it's really the developer's job to make sure that people stay glued to the screen.

Some stuff that developers could do:
1. Don't start players with infinite continues. Tie extra credits to a score-based shop or time-based unlocks. This feature makes no sense if you want people to actually play your game. I don't think anybody would have played Ikaruga for more than 30 minutes if there had been infinite continues off the bat. Infinite continues makes your game disposable.
2. Think about meta-structure. Ginga Force's unlockable lives and level selection really rework the standard formula, and even something as simple as Mars Matrix's shop really gives players incentive to score.
3. If you have to, separate the story modes and score attack modes. If you want to make an RPG shooter then do that, just don't put it in the way of the score attack. Please the fans first and then make something everyone will love.
4. Make a modern Twinkle Star Sprites and then don't call it Twinkle Star Sprites. I want a new Twinkle Star Sprites style shooter so badly. So badly.

I'd like to hear if you guys have any thoughts on it. I really wouldn't want to change Cave or anything, since they're so perfect at what they do that I'm not sure they could do anything else remotely as good. But I really wish smaller devs would come out, realize that the core gameplay in these games is fucking fantastic, and then work on building a successful framework that doesn't get in the way of the game. Let me ignore the framework if I want to. If it's good, I'll give it a chance, and I'll be really happy you took the risk.

[Squire Grooktook]

Speaking of RPG elements and ways to get people outside the genre interested, personally I'm still waiting for a good spiritual successor to The Guardian Legend. I can't believe nobody has taken a stab at such a brilliant concept (well, there's Sigma Star Saga, but that game was bleh iirc), especially when the original game itself was such a fantastic proof of concept that such a game could work and be extremely fun. I know it seems daunting and you'd have to put a lot of thought and work into preventing the concept from degrading into an unfun Euroshmup, but there's so many untapped possibilities that I think it would be worth the work.

[louisg]

Devs need to make it more obvious that there's something going on in the game besides blowing a lot of shit up. They should reinforce the idea that it's about quick games: It's not about just playing to the end, but playing to the end *well*.

A game like Ikaruga was successful in this regard because they put their clever gimmick right up front. It was hard to miss. Developers should hold the player's hand a little more and show them that there's more to the game than meets the eye. There's no reason that other games in the genre can't enjoy that level of "indie cred" success; the problem is that most people don't understand them.

And I think earning credits goes a long way, as someone earlier in the thread pointed out. And instead of just altering the score if you continue, maybe write it out-- "X CONTINUES USED"-- right there on the scoreboard.

[Special World]

Speaking of RPG elements and ways to get people outside the genre interested, personally I'm still waiting for a good spiritual successor to The Guardian Legend. I can't believe nobody has taken a stab at such a brilliant concept (well, there's Sigma Star Saga, but that game was bleh iirc), especially when the original game itself was such a fantastic proof of concept that such a game could work and be extremely fun. I know it seems daunting and you'd have to put a lot of thought and work into preventing the concept from degrading into an unfun Euroshmup, but there's so many untapped possibilities that I think it would be worth the work.

Yeah, there's so much that can be done with the genre, but I feel like changes are coming from people who either aren't 100% on what makes these games great, or people who think shooters aren't that great in general. If we had a few small developers who understood the core gameplay strengths but were willing to add small innovations, I think the genre would be in a lot better state. Right now the games are great, but nobody wants to play them. I'm worried that a lot of my favorite devs won't be around for very long. I'm a huge fan of Cave's games, but even I feel like there's too much similarity between their games. I can only imagine how they look to somebody who doesn't like them.

Devs need to make it more obvious that there's something going on in the game besides blowing a lot of shit up. They should reinforce the idea that it's about quick games: It's not about just playing to the end, but playing to the end *well*.

A game like Ikaruga was successful in this regard because they put their clever gimmick right up front. It was hard to miss. Developers should hold the player's hand a little more and show them that there's more to the game than meets the eye. There's no reason that other games in the genre can't enjoy that level of "indie cred" success; the problem is that most people don't understand them.

And I think earning credits goes a long way, as someone earlier in the thread pointed out. And instead of just altering the score if you continue, maybe write it out-- "X CONTINUES USED"-- right there on the scoreboard.

Absolutely. I think part of the problem for many games is that a large part of their greatness is dependent on the greatness of their scoring system. So you have this system in place that fans love, but new players don't understand how or why they should even bother with it. A huge aspect of the game is hidden away. I think the genre would really benefit from some surface level stuff to draw players in and get them to discover the nuance. The problem for a lot of devs is that their games start in the arcade, so they have a much stricter framework to work within. Maybe that's why Qute's so able to break out and try radical new approaches - they're unbounded by the traditional format.