Pope Resigns

[Skykid]

Art does not exist in some vacuum.

Of course it does. Art is nothing outside of a vacuum because its value is relative and proportionate only to the particular demographic that take express interest in it. A bin on the side of the road covered in cigarette butts is an inanimate object of no worth, but inside the Saatchi gallery with Damien Hirst's signature on it, it's a significant and influential statement on the nature of political corruption.

But only in a vacuum. You might think Berserk is art, your parents would think it's crap. You'd probably both be right because the appeal of the material is subjective.

[antron]

I still don't understand why our species groups everything like we do.
The more I study physics, biology and mathematics, life just appear to be a random thing. However, I don't need any answers to why we're here, only how. I hope more people have similar thoughts on the subject, however I'm doubtful.

can you (or our race) really expect to find the full answer of how without answering why?

And I think you have brought up the most interesting word in the thread, random. Oh how abused you are.

There is certainly nothing random about math. Physics, ok, measurements can be like coin tosses. Biology, very much so. Mutations over time are random, meaning a large group of them show no pattern. You can only call a group of measurements random. This says nothing about individual events. They could all be caused by an external influence that leaves you unable to find a pattern in the group.

Atheist scientists have been fucking this up so badly they are partially to blame for the revolt against evolution.

Creationists have been so lazy to understand how this sets them free they are as well.

[mesh control]

can you (or our race) really expect to find the full answer of how without answering why?

And I think you have brought up the most interesting word in the thread, random. Oh how abused you are.

There is certainly nothing random about math. Physics, ok, measurements can be like coin tosses. Biology, very much so. Mutations over time are random, meaning a large group of them show no pattern. You can only call a group of measurements random. This says nothing about individual events. They could all be caused by an external influence that leaves you unable to find a pattern in the group.

Atheist scientists have been fucking this up so badly they are partially to blame for the revolt against evolution.

Creationists have been so lazy to understand how this sets them free they are as well.

Good job adding some more condescension into the thread with your third sentence. Can't talk about religon without it.
My very elementary understanding of mathematics is that it's just a tool we use to better understand and reveal nature. So of course it's not random. In my original statement I never meant for it to come off as "MATH, PHYSICS & BIO. ARE ALL RANDOM.", as you seemingly took it.

They could all be caused by an external influence that leaves you unable to find a pattern in the group.

If you cannot observe or measure this, it's irrelevant. It should be removed from the table. That's all I'm saying and nothing more.

There's probably a Richard Feynman quote from the Horizon special I should plug here, but I'm not going to do that.

Atheist scientists - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxDLkoK8vQQ

[antron]

Yeah, that was a pretty poor interpretation of your statement on my my part.

If you cannot observe or measure this, it's irrelevant. It should be removed from the table.

Certainly for science. I just wanted to point out that religion has always been unaffected by the word random, and the religious should have never felt threatened by it.

[BryanM]

Somehow we've gone from the "Pope was a hate spewing pedo-enabler" to the "religion is lulzers" to the "what is art?!?!!?!?!" subject, which is the lowest possible rung of discourse just above petty semantics squabbles.

A quote from Carter's wife about Reagan: "I think this president makes us comfortable with our prejudices."

I think that cuts to the bone about what the pope is supposed to be, and really verbalizes my snide "anyone under a million years old" sentiment is about. The role of the pope isn't to be a spearhead for modern times; it's to be whatever is most profitable for their brand. That doesn't include acknowledging homosexuals and atheists may actually be people, that pedos should be brought to justice, etc.

Whatever is most comfortable for the people they have left.

---

Personal story time, when I was going into Basic, my father gave me this advice:

"When they ask you what religion you are, tell them you're Methodist."
"Dad, times have changed. It isn't like back in your day; you can say you're an atheist now."
"..Really?!"

Aw, I miss that old bastard. His surprise at how the world kept changing amused me on a number of occasions. And how he'd work on moving along with it; admire that now that I'm An Old. You hear these guys on the AM radio confused and scared about the election, just because the current version of Reagan is black or democrat, but in all other ways roughly identical. Just pitiful people. More-so than the "3d pig" ronely otaku crowd.

---

(Siren saying how manufactured trends are is correct I suppose, however. Take the bra: God, aka, science, has indicated it very likely causes sag, and, if worn constantly, almost certainly increases the odds of boob cancer by around twice. If we were rational, sane human beings, alternatives would have become the standard long ago, instead of this freaky fetish sex thing.

His explicit comments about how many people lack souls altogether, whether by birth, or ground out of them by expectations, are of course too depressing to address. This cat-squid has chosen denial to cope with reality.)

[EmperorIng]

I think that cuts to the bone about what the pope is supposed to be, and really verbalizes my snide "anyone under a million years old" sentiment is about. The role of the pope isn't to be a spearhead for modern times; it's to be whatever is most profitable for their brand. That doesn't include acknowledging homosexuals and atheists may actually be people, that pedos should be brought to justice, etc.

First step: Define "modern"

Second Step: Elaborate on how said 'modern' is de facto 'good' and how this relates to being a 'spearhead'

Third Step: find quote "atheists/homosexuals aren't people"

I find it a little amusing myself that most of this burnout and anger comes from just not, well, knowing what the stance is, aside from some bigoted moron like Chris Hitchens or Richard Dawkins say. Someone tells somebody to be angry, and that person chomps at the bit.

While the sex scandal is a tragic state of affairs, I think it is worth mentioning that of all the clergy accused, 88% accused turn out to have been accused falsely. It is also worth noting that nearly every single offender was ordained before the council of Vatican II, and that most seminaries these days weed out potential hazards very early on.

[Ex-Cyber]

While the sex scandal is a tragic state of affairs

"Sex" scandal? Seriously? It's a rape scandal (or rather, more than one).

[O. Van Bruce]

Welp... the conclave should be before the end of march...

meanwhile...

[system11]

Final countdown before the lock?

And lol @ siren's posts.

We have no rules about politics/religion threads here - a conscious decision. If even one person who has never questioned issues or beliefs before, stumbles across a thread like this and finds viewpoints exist outside their own, it was all worthwhile. That's why I disagree with forums banishing them as a subject of conversation. If people object to these subjects being discussed occasionally, they should not read the topics, or stay out of off-topic. I'd hope this balance can continue.

I see no reason to lock this although I might start deleting a few petty snipes here and there.

[EmperorIng]

While the sex scandal is a tragic state of affairs

"Sex" scandal? Seriously? It's a rape scandal (or rather, more than one).

Uh, glad you could shoot that one off there, but how does that change anything I wrote?

[Ex-Cyber]

While the sex scandal is a tragic state of affairs

"Sex" scandal? Seriously? It's a rape scandal (or rather, more than one).

Uh, glad you could shoot that one off there, but how does that change anything I wrote?

The intent wasn't to change anything you wrote, it was to call out whitewashing.

[EmperorIng]

"Sexual Abuse" is definitely a white-washing term, of course.

I hope you were just as up in arms over the Penn State "Rape Scandal".

[Jonathan Ingram]

Third Step: find quote "atheists/homosexuals aren't people"

They may not have explicitly stated that(at least I don`t believe they have), but the Catholic Church has indeed on many occasions(last time as recently as 2010) vilified atheists as bearers of the "dangerous materialist view of the world". And their stand on homosexuality and gay marriages is not exactly a secret either - the Catholic Church finds them socially unacceptable and that`s putting it very mildly.

[system11]

Had to clean up the thread. Those people who wish to trade attacks should continue to do so in PMs.

[Lord Satori]

Thats what I don't like about catholicism. They're so sexually aroused by their own intolerance to everything that they forget what their religion is really about.

[antron]

Can anyone here who believes in hell explain why they would worship a god that tortures people ( besides out of fear)?

[Moniker]

Can anyone here who believes in hell explain why they would worship a god that tortures people ( besides out of fear)?

Whom has thou then, or what, to accuse,
But Heaven’s free love dealt equally to all?
Be then his love accursed, since, love or hate,
To me alike it deals eternal woe.
Nay, cursed be thou; since against his thy will
Chose freely what it now so justly rues.
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrauth and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell;
And, in the lowest deep, a lower deep
Still threatening to devour me opens wide,
To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven.
O, then, at last relent! Is there no place
Left for repentence, none for pardon left?
None left but by submission; and that word
Disdain forbids me

-Paradise Lost, Book IV

[EmperorIng]

It's easier when you realize that the notion of hell you are alluding to isn't, theologically speaking, what hell is or supposed to mean. Most of our fanciful depictions of hell come from Dante's Inferno, which is first and foremost a [sublime] work of fiction.

In the Catholic teaching, hell is a complete, willful removal from God and His Creation. God doesn't "send" people to hell, the people that reject so utterly everything that is good, holy, and just in life have a place of their own in the afterlife. It is pitiable, miserable, and painful, yes, because that's what complete separation is like - it's complete self-absorption and rejection of the world. That's why C.S. Lewis wrote something to the effect that what hell is really like is everyone going off and building their house in the middle of nowhere, to get away from any neighbor that might bother them - loosely speaking, of course.

I suppose I could say that God mercifully gave a place for such souls to be instead of outright destroying them. In the Christian context, God acts out of love, and hell, if you look at it in a certain way, is an act of love in that God allows souls to reject him, instead of coercion or forced consent (which isn't love).

Most moral teaching that tries to strike the fear of hell into peoples' hearts are missing the point of morality. Yes, there are consequences for evil actions, but consequences should never motivate behavior.

[antron]

It is pitiable, miserable, and painful, yes, because that's what complete separation is like - it's complete self-absorption and rejection of the world.

Whatever the mechanism, torture is torture. You make it sound like the tortured will continue on with that after they realize God and Hell are real. They won't, and the only thing keeping them there will be god. How can you worship a god that would do that?

[Lord Satori]

My personal belief is that hell is a world for demons, and that people who have either lost their way to/cannot find/are being kept from heaven remain in this world as ghosts. Actually, I'm not 100% certain heaven exists at all. There's lots of evidence of demons and ghosts, but what of angels?

[Moniker]

The point is that God isn't the torturer. Man tortures himself. "Myself am hell." God will not force devotion on anyone, even those who choose self-torture as an alternative.

[antron]

No one sane person chooses eternal self torture. God tricks them into it with temptations and uncertainty.

One is locked in hell for eternity right? Or am I missing something?

[EmperorIng]

It's God's fault that some men choose greed, power, envy, pride, etc. over virtue?

[antron]

Not fully, but do they deserve eternal pain regardless?

I think men choose greed because greed worked, and that got their sperm in a hole that would carry it. Envy too for that matter. Power, holy shit power. Genghis Khan fathered 11% of Asia or something like that.

[EmperorIng]

Not fully!

Two scenarios, at the "pearly gates." Two sinners, bad men in life, but one is repentant and the other persists in that he has done nothing wrong.

===

"If you want to enter heaven, you are going to have to give up your greed and egotism. In life it made you sinful and wicked, and has no place here."

"No. I know what I want, and what is best for myself. I won't ever give up this thing that is me."

"This saddens me, but you have made your choice. Depart from here."

===

"If you want to enter heaven, you will have to give up your lust and infidelity. It hurt God, the people close to you and it hurt yourself. Repent of your sin."

"I realize now that I haven't lived as I should. Please forgive me."

"Your soul still needs strength - stay a while in purgatory, and soon you will join the glories of heaven."

===

To explain further:

The "eternal pain" is from the absence of God. Evil and hell are not substantial things - they are negative things. They are lacking in God's light and grace. Someone who completely rejects that brings the pain on themselves. It's not politically-correct in this day and age to say that some people will have to live with the negative consequences of their actions - we all want everyone on earth to be happy and well. But this just can't happen - some people are too far gone. The love is that God doesn't force you to love him. So if someone turns their back on goodness and closes his ears, what can you do? You can say "come back," or "you will suffer" but some people are so hard-hearted that they refuse to even acknowledge their misery. It's not what they "deserve," so much as what they chose, because the alternative (changing themselves for the better) frightened them.

[antron]

This isn't political correctness, it's humanity.

Even if they suffered without acknowledging it, because of their "hard" heart, why would they then be forced to receive more suffering beyond their control at all, forever? It makes no sense.

Ironically, I have to give some credit to the church, for instilling these feelings of goodwill towards mankind. I see no reason to cease them after death.

[Lord Satori]

There's a difference between turning your back on good and turning your back on God. Religion has yet to learn the difference.

[O. Van Bruce]

This thread made me happy. I spend some time last night thinking of a way to revive this but now it seems there is some good material flowing.

[trap15]

There's lots of evidence of demons and ghosts

Such as?

[Friendly]

There's lots of evidence of demons and ghosts

Just because some people hear voices inside their heads, that doesn't mean those have any external source. Much like god/gods.