Can skills in traditional shooters help in bullet hell?

[Squire Grooktook]

*and vice versa

I know skills at different stg's can transfer over, but can skills acquired in games like Gradius and Darius help in say, Dodonpachi.

Though I'v picked them up extremely casually for fun, I haven't seriously played a bullet hell shooter in years. I'v mostly been focusing on traditional shooters (Axelay, Gradius, Darius, Aleste). Last night though, I picked up Dodonpachi for the first time in a while, and found myself getting quite a bit farther on one credit then I did years ago when I was serious about the game. I tried it again and got even farther, showing that it was pretty consistent. I had also forgotten most of the levels, so it wasn't a matter of memorization.

So can really simple bullet dodging help one to improve at complex bullet dodging? I'v always thought that the skills for both types of games were very different and would not transfer, but I'm curious now if they can.

[BIOS]

Defiantly.

[trap15]

Well, I'd say ones in traditional verticals can transfer to bullet hell verticals, but I get the feeling that skill transfer between orientations isn't as 1:1.

That's not to say it doesn't transfer at all, but I get the feeling that they aren't similar enough to do much other than general skill building (reaction time, trajectory estimation, etc.)

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, having good reaction time and stuff will translate a bit. But for me, it took time to get the hang of bullet hell.

[ciox]

Well the other way around sure didn't work for me, it was pretty up-hill.

[Jeneki]

I find anything with abstract pattern recognition helpful. Traditional shmups, bullet hell shmups, rhythm games, even strategy games like go.

[Squire Grooktook]

trajectory estimation

I'm thinking this is the most important one. My theory is that when dealing with randomly generated bullet storms in a traditional shmup, you have to really be able to immediately assess all the different trajectories of each bullet to make sure you can find a spot where your much larger hitbox will be unscathed. I imagine this would help a lot in bullet hell when dealing with stuff like criss crossing streams or clusters of bullets.

[casualcoder]

EDIT: older shooters still involve dodging, so yes it helps.

[Kobayashi]

For me, the answer is: yes!

[nimitz]

In old school verts you very rarely dodge if you play properly, since all bullets are aimed sniper shots.

That being said, there are still skills that translate: skill with your input device, pre-planning of ship trajectory depending on your speed while taking into account bullet trajectories, reaction time, threat prioritization etc...

[shaowebb]

It'll help with reaction times and such but if you're a Gradius person its a different beast entirely since that game in particular is more about precision shooting and such with a low fire rate. For me bullethells seem to be about large pattern recognition. Bullets fly in and I have to quickly recognize the arc paths its trails will follow to know where to place my ship. Thats a bit of a different skill than the normal ship and enemy pattern recognition of stuff akin to Gradius. Similar but very different in the speed you need to have to recognize the patterns.

Plus in bullet hells your rate of fire and bullet coverage tends to be far greater in most games so theres also a bit of pattern clouding that goes on due to your own bulletpaths confusing your eyes initially to enemy patterns and sometimes even bullet patterns. Its not much but it makes a difference.

I think you'll do fine, but start with a few easy ones like Eden's Aegis (free online similar to espgaluda). Also I suggest the Castle Shikigami games. Not so much bullet hell as somewhere in between, but very good for growing you into pattern recognition.

[nimitz]

Gradius is actually one of the older shmup series that translates the best to bullet hell type dodging. Despite the superficial layer of path planning/precision shooting, if you're any decent at the games you quickly run into situations where the screen is filled with rather slow bullets in which you have to know where your hitbox is and navigate it through the bullet curtain. There is also the fact that the Gradius games slow down with a lot of bullet on screen making it even more similar to cave style bullet hell.

Getting better at bullet hell will make you better at Gradius and vice versa, it's actually the only hori series that translates so well.

[O. Van Bruce]

Dunno about the skills that transfer from one genre to another besides the basics of a shmuper but I'm sure someone who starts by danmaku will have a tougher time getting used to traditional shmups than the other way.

[Deca]

It really depends on the game. A lot of traditional games, mostly horis, don't really teach any skills at all and have to be memorized.

Anything where you're actually dodging, streaming, misdirecting, etc is going to help build your skills. Remembering safespots and where dangerous enemies appear so you can speedkill them before they attack isn't going to help you outside of the game you're playing.

[Squire Grooktook]

Gradius is actually one of the older shmup series that translates the best to bullet hell type dodging. Despite the superficial layer of path planning/precision shooting, if you're any decent at the games you quickly run into situations where the screen is filled with rather slow bullets in which you have to know where your hitbox is and navigate it through the bullet curtain. There is also the fact that the Gradius games slow down with a lot of bullet on screen making it even more similar to cave style bullet hell.

Getting better at bullet hell will make you better at Gradius and vice versa, it's actually the only hori series that translates so well.

I have to strongly agree with this. Also just the way Gradius works, you can't just use memorization or macro skills to utterly avoid ever having to deal with lots of bullets in the first place. Sooner or later you're going to make a small mistake, then your going to have to manage a very tricky recovery, with enemies who are very bullet heavy, somewhat random, and cannot be realistically crowd controlled no matter how well you know the stage (obviously this depends on the recovery though, some are easy and some are borderline unwinnable).

It really depends on the game. A lot of traditional games, mostly horis, don't really teach any skills at all and have to be memorized.

I highly disagree. Even in a game like R-Type, where memorization is claimed to be everything, there are still dangerous areas where you have to rely heavily on execution and reflexes, even if you'v already drilled the pattern into your head.

It's also not taking into account that a lot of these games often have strong random elements in their attacks to offset the memorization. For example, I believe most of the turrets and popcorn enemies in Gradius fire on a somewhat random period, which can often result in dieing on the second stage if your not paying attention. Darius also has a lot of bosses with random periods on their attacks as well (for example, when Titanic Lance launches the rocket during his third phase is not possible to predict iirc).

Knowing what's going to happen next helps in any game, but it's not everything.

[Ed Oscuro]

Defiantly.

FIST PUMP your way to success

[Squire Grooktook]

Okay, so I was just spent about 30 minutes or so practicing Gundemonium on demonic mode. Afterwards I went and played Rayforce on hard mode, and proceeded to sucessfully evade situations and bullets that normally kill me every single time, and furthermore got way farther then I had ever been on hard mode and broke my high score by a wide margin.

So yeah, I'd also add Rayforce to the list of games that skills in bullet hell can transfer to and from.