10th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[soupbones]

Shouldn't the 10th Annual VOTE thread be a sticky?

Just a thought.

[Tyranix95]

Hey,

emphatic: Just listed HALLEY'S COMET on this TOP 25 List.

...
[5] Halley's Comet
...

I love that game. Always one of my favorites. But, I always thought it was too obscure and unknown to be a TOP 25 game. Anyone else like this game?

The game is in MAME if you want to check it out.

Here is a quick vid on the TUBE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7atimkypz8

[Vyxx]

Would help

[EmperorIng]

Shouldn't the 10th Annual VOTE thread be a sticky?

Just a thought.

Especially since the deadline is approaching. Need to squeeze every last vote out.

Halley's Comet is one of those games I really want to try but haven't gotten around to it. I love that PSG music.

Though I probably can't put any more Taito games on there without losing all shreds of credibility!

That vote with Halley's Comet though does have some excellent taste.

[louisg]

Oh man, I used to love that on the Game Gear. I haven't played it in years, so I have no idea how it stacks up. Maybe next year it'll be on my list...

[Squire Grooktook]

You know it's funny, I just played R-Type 3 for the first time in years today, and it was a LOT easier then I remember. Is that just muscle memory guiding me through the patterns, or is the game significantly less challenging then I originally believed?

Still a fun game though. It's definitely taking the spot for my favorite R-Type game, having not played Delta (more then once).

[Aquas]

This list was the hardest to make / revise for me this year. Since we skipped a year I feel like my taste has refined. Many considerations went through my head.

1. Would I have the same fun if I went back and played that game (that I voted for in years past)?
2. Should I chuck away some of my lower tier games to the weight system since they probably aren't going to be voted by others? (Which the end result is that they are thrown into the bin *of what games everyone voted for*) (In this case it was yes.)
3. Am I biased because it's what I'm currently playing?
Or because it hit that certain spark with me, that another similar STG could have filled the void with?
4. Honestly, just how fun is each game compared to others?
5. I may not play this game a lot but I can't get enough of it's style... uh oh.

After all, I had weighed in my time spent with each game as that may be a tangible indicator.

I know I have a thing for cute'em'ups. But I really do think as time goes on Guwange could be in my top 3 or top 5. In the end, Dragon Spirit is just so pure to me. I had to give it a top ranking. And well, Eschatos has pleasantly surprised me.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Darius II Lovers: the few, the proud[?], the utterly insane

I wish I liked Darius 2 more than I do. The stages are really entertaining, but I'm not a fan of the feel or powerup system. I tried to like it- I even bought the Saturn version

It would definitely be better if the Silver hawk was smaller, and didn't have such a punishing power-up system (basically the other two Darius's I listed: G-Darius and Darius Gaiden), but when you're doing well you really ride that high, and that's one of the reasons I enjoy playing it.

Darius 2 came close to my list - I have the Saturn version and the seriously admirable SMS version. The power up balance is wrong though. With enough power, the earlier stages breeze past but die on the final couple of stages and you're done for.

[EmperorIng]

I think Skykid said it well in the stinkers topic, in regards to Darius: "treat death like an involuntary restart and you may learn to love it."

If you made it to the last stage without dying though, the amount of power-ups you have at that stage should be more than capable of dealing with the threats coming at you. not like I've ever managed that more than once or twice!

As far as point weight goes, I tried to keep things simple, though the top three shmups in my vote deserved all the points I could possibly give them. Based on the votes thus far, I'm hoping for a nice Taito revaluation/comeback.

[emphatic]

I realized that I had a better game for slot 13 in my list, so made the proper adjustments.

[Tyranix95]

Shouldn't the 10th Annual VOTE thread be a sticky?

Just a thought.

Especially since the deadline is approaching. Need to squeeze every last vote out.

Halley's Comet is one of those games I really want to try but haven't gotten around to it. I love that PSG music.

Though I probably can't put any more Taito games on there without losing all shreds of credibility!

That vote with Halley's Comet though does have some excellent taste.

If your a sucker for TAITO, then I'm a sucker for CAPCOM.

But I absolutely dig that Comet game, that and ZANAC, so I just have to add it to my list.

The game is so simple and yet so fun. Heh, it's got to be those neat little chip tunes and flashy little sprites.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I'm tempted to throw HRtP back on my list but I doubt any of the games I have on there are worth replacing even though it has such high replay value for me...

[Jeneki]

Should I chuck away some of my lower tier games to the weight system since they probably aren't going to be voted by others?

Those are my favorite part actually, to see some hype for games I haven't spent much time with.

[Tyranix95]

I spy 79 ballots so far.

Think we'll break last year's total of 99?

We're only 20 ballots and 2 weeks away.

[jasoncslaughter]

Playing a lot of games I haven't touched in a while was a blast! Making a Top 25 list was not.

[trap15]

Updated my list, and wrote out an explanation for each game's placement (for Tier III and higher):

TIER I:
[25] Battle Bakraid
Battle Bakraid is one of the most interesting games on my list, having an extremely deep scoring that's simple at face value yet extremely demanding and satisfying, and an interesting twist on the "enemy chaining" mechanic. Because of how absolutely fascinated I am with its scoring, and the extreme enjoyment I get from a good run, I can't give this game any less than 25 points: a full score.

[25] Battle Garegga
Battle Garegga is one of the finest experiences the genre has to offer, with its mix of simplistic shooting fairly reminiscent of older STG from Toaplan and Taito, and deep and complex scoring. Anybody who's played this gem and appreciates the finer and even simple things, will understand why I have to give Garegga 25 points, tying it with Bakraid and my next game:

[25] Hishouzame
One of the most intense, and earliest of Toaplan titles, this game holds my heart as my favorite game from Toaplan, and one of my favorite games of all time. Being one of the first STG I played a significant amount, I've also had plenty of experience with it to be able to give it a proper examination and score: 25 points.

[15] Mad Planets
A very curious game, and probably the most complex pre-1985 game I've played. It uses a very bizarre control scheme -- a "flight stick" and a spinner -- to control your ship, while you blast planets that attempt to collide with you, or shoot their moons at you. I've not had enough experience with this game yet to truly evaluate a score for it, but I've had far too much fun with it to not give it an extremely high place on my list. An unfortunate shortcoming is how unorthodox the control scheme is, and as a result, feels uncomfortable to play in most situations.

[15] Thunder Dragon 2
THIS IS A VERY ORTHODOX SHOOTING GAME. One of the finest titles from defunct developer NMK, it seems extremely simple at face value. However, it features "Dangun Feveron"-style stage design, where the ground enemies are fixed, and aerial enemies are thrown in "wave-by-wave", only spawning more enemies after you've cleared the current ones off the screen. Unlike Dangun Feveron however, this game doesn't punish bombing, and even encourages it in places. Hidden "fast" medals help spawn bomb pickups, and are a significant scoring mechanic. One of my favorite games of all time, getting 15 points.

TIER II:
[12] Ibara
A truly insane game. Take Armed Police Batrider, turn up the "Yagawa-isms" to max, and you have the insanity that is Ibara. An extremely difficult game, with two "extra" modes -- Extended, a 2-loop version and Harder, a mode where rank starts much higher than default -- for even more replayability once you can clear the original game. A highly enjoyable game with amazing character art by Tomoyuki:Kotani, deserves my score of 12 points.

[10] Armed Police Batrider
Armed Police Batrider takes Garegga to the next level, bumping up the importance of boss milking to insane proportions, and absolutely covering stages in discoverable secrets. An enjoyable experience, but a frustrating and difficult one as well. While not quite as enjoyable as Ibara or the Battle games, it's certainly one of my favorites, and earns a score of 10 points.

[10] Same!Same!Same!
The sequel to Hishouzame, this is an absolutely ball-crushing game. Despite being a 'later' Toaplan game, this one has very little scoring to speak of, very similar to Hishouzame. A great game, but you're going to need to pick up a PCB for this one, as it lacks sound in MAME.

[9] Raiden Fighters 2
My favorite entry in the Raiden Fighters series, with a fairly simple scoring mostly based around secrets and perfect execution. I don't have too much to say about this game, considering it's already fairly well known and simplistic.

[9] Kyuukyoku Tiger
Another early entry from Toaplan, right off the heels of Hishouzame. A fantastic game, but I can't seem to enjoy it nearly as much as Hishouzame or Same!Same!Same!, possibly because the game feels a bit more boring than the previously mentioned.

TIER III:
[7] Pink Sweets Arrange
Probably my favorite arrange mode of any game ever, and certainly my favorite game on the MuchiMuchiPork & Pink Sweets collection. The scoring is extremely similar to Battle Bakraid, albeit a bit simplified. Instead of enemy chains based on killing large enemies, it's based on bombing enemies. This game would have a higher score (closer to Ibara or Thunder Dragon 2), but I know nobody will be voting for this, and I felt I could better allocate points elsewhere.

[5] Strikers 1999
A pretty different game from the higher-ups in my list, being a very simple memory-based STG. There's not too much to say here, but this is probably my favorite of the two Psikyo games I have listed here, possibly because I have a bit more experience with this one.

[5] Strikers 1945 II
Not all that much to say here, another simple memorizer from Psikyo.

[3] Gun Frontier
A very deep and emotional STG from Taito. This game served as the basis for many mechanics of Yagawa's games, including the "bomb fragments" and "small powerups". This is one of my personal favorites, but the scoring is completely ruined by the unfortunate inclusion of checkpoints, which allows for checkpoint milking in many places.

[2] ESP Ra.De
My favorite CAVE game, with extraordinary stage design (TABLES COME FIRST!!) and a fantastic scoring mechanic. Much like Gun Frontier, however, this game also has horrible unintentional milking-based scoring at high-level play, which forces me to give such a low score.

Developer Breakdown:
[5] Raizing (and Yagawa-developed CAVE)
[4] CAVE (non-Yagawa)
[3] Toaplan
[3] NMK
[2] Taito
[2] Irem
[2] Psikyo
[1] Gottleib
[1] Oriental Soft Japan
[1] Takumi
[1] Seibu Kaihatsu

[WarLord]

I'm very surprised about the absence of Hyper Duel... Never played or never liked ?

@Edit for Trap15 : I see you talk about NMK Thunder Dragon 2 and I'm currently interested in this title, so, did you played Gunnail ?

If yes, is that these two games are comparable (NMK games) and wich one do you prefer ?

I think these are the best productions of this editor.

[trap15]

Never played! I'll have to give that one a shot later today.

[WarLord]

The Jamma PCB is quite unfindable nowadays but you can try it via Sat Conv., it seems this one is better than the original arcade one.

[k39bk]

I'm very surprised about the absence of Hyper Duel... Never played or never liked ?

@Edit for Trap15 : I see you talk about NMK Thunder Dragon 2 and I'm currently interested in this title, so, did you played Gunnail ?

If yes, is that these two games are comparable (NMK games) and wich one do you prefer ?

I think these are the best productions of this editor.

I voted for Hyper Duel..

[EmperorIng]

Gun Frontier might have made it on to my list, since the game really is fantastic, but during that tourney week where everyone kept on milking stage 2, it moved down a few notches in my estimation. Still a great game, but not worth playing for score.

ESPRade is cool, but I hate boss milking plain and simple (which should be funny since i like Darius games).

[trap15]

@Edit for Trap15 : I see you talk about NMK Thunder Dragon 2 and I'm currently interested in this title, so, did you played Gunnail ?

If yes, is that these two games are comparable (NMK games) and wich one do you prefer ?

I think these are the best productions of this editor.

I have played Gunnail. It's also very good, but I can't really judge it since it's pretty broken graphically in MAME. I also believe the scoring system isn't as straightforward. So, take that as a "I like Thunder Dragon 2 better".

Gun Frontier might have made it on to my list, since the game really is fantastic, but during that tourney week where everyone kept on milking stage 2, it moved down a few notches in my estimation. Still a great game, but not worth playing for score.

ESPRade is cool, but I hate boss milking plain and simple (which should be funny since i like Darius games).

Yeah, the milking in those is why they don't have a higher score. Quite unfortunate too, since they're really great games.

[BIL]

I'm very surprised about the absence of Hyper Duel... Never played or never liked ?

One of my favourite shooters, but despite being the only Tecno Soft STG with rank it's a little lightweight for a desert island list. I'm sure quite a few other participants feel similarly - it's usually well-regarded whenever it gets the odd mention around here.

It unfortunately has both dumb scoring ideas (stay still for points) and contradicting ones (keep AI safe, yet also destroy everything which will lead to the AI getting itself killed), but neither bother me any more than Gun.Smoke's stupid boss milking.

The Jamma PCB is quite unfindable nowadays but you can try it via Sat Conv., it seems this one is better than the original arcade one.

SS ver is definitely my favourite of the two - looks and sounds fantastic and improves on the already smooth AC ver by letting you lock the mech mode's aim. And it includes a perfect port of the AC version on the disc, so it's a no-brainer. Pricey, though.

[Ed Oscuro]

GunNail's scoring is this: Get hit repeatedly until you are one hit from death, and rake in the multipliers. If it wasn't for the getting hit repeatedly part, it would be a lot easier to swallow, but that's just a bit of anxiety at the beginning of each stage as you whittle away your shield. Pretty straightforward risk/reward balancing.

I'm still feeling uncertain about whether I'll turn in a list this year - too many new thoughts on games and not enough expertise (to put it mildly) to feel warranted at throwing together one. However I do think that I would treat ability to play for scoring (without unenjoyable tricks) as one of the top criteria. And unfortunately this means that, for me, something like Gun Frontier will be worth one play through with low-scoring, but not really agreeable to me with serious play (especially considering the game boosts rank in tandem with score - wtf?)

Playing with the idea of Gekirindan but I'm not sure on its replayability level. It definitely doesn't have the level of scoring goodness you'd find in Raiden Fighters (in any region).

[Nifty]

I'm still feeling uncertain about whether I'll turn in a list this year - too many new thoughts on games and not enough expertise (to put it mildly) to feel warranted at throwing together one.

Can't go too wrong as long as they're games that could do with a bit more credit

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Daymn, I don't think any of us put in as much thought as Trap15 did into making a list this year.

[Friendly]

Are people forgetting Border Down? sadface.

[BIL]

Top five for me. You should vote for it.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I have it as my #3 spot. For some reason, the version I'm playing also has more color and cooler bosses than the others I've seen.

[shadowbringer]

breakdown by dev:

Zun = 6
Cave = 3
Len = 2
Raizing = 2
Seibu Kaihatsu = 2
ADK = 1
Capcom = 1
Gazelle = 1
Irem = 1
Konami = 1
NMK = 1
Takumi = 1
Toaplan = 1
x.x = 1
Yotsubane = 1

comments: this isn't meant to be an objective information on which developers are better or worse; much of my game choices were affected by personal factors, which I'll try to explain below.

[25] [Phantasmagoria Trues]
[25] [Phantasm Romance]
[25] [Mystic Square]
[25] [Lotus Land Story]

comments: I haven't played a lot of shmups after STGT, since I've acquired a PS3 (so I could play Arcana Heart 3 in english, because learning japanese is suffering ;_;), and then an arcade stick (which ended up more expensive than the PS3 itself, but it's worth every cent and more :3), so I haven't picked up new (shooting) games iirc. Those who stand at 25 points are those which I found I could enjoy playing with the least restart count and with the least time invested to begin having fun with their systems.

[15] [Crimzon Clover]
[15] [Twinkle Star Sprites]
[15] [Phantasmagoria of Dim Dream]
[15] [Phantasmagoria of Flower View]
[15] [Double Spoiler]
[15] [Varth - Operation Thunderstorm]

comments: I could play the games at 15 points for variety, but once I pick them up, I find myself replaying them (even if there's restartitis involved)

[10] [Eden's Aegis]
[10] [Dangun Feveron]
[10] [Thunder Dragon 2]
[10] [ESP Ra De]
[10] [ESP Galuda]
[10] [Great Fairy Wars]

comments: those at 10 points would do well in a weekly tournament, I think, but I'm not too interested in them to invest much time on them or keep playing for a long time atm; they can grow on me later, though, who knows..

[5] [Air Gallet]
[5] [X-Multiply]
[5] [Raiden Fighters Jet]
[5] [Raiden Fighters 2]
[5] [Armed Police Batrider]
[5] [Battle Garegga]
[5] [Giga Wing]
[5] [Gokujyou Parodius]
[5] [V-V]

comments: those at 5 points are still games that I like, but would take a lot of time for me to get good at them and feel some progress, plus, I need time to get myself ready for the higher restartitis which they seemingly induce, due to me having a poor memory and being clueless past the first stages.