Dungeon crawl

[CMoon]

Guys, stop beating around the bush.

nethack.alt.org

The problem is that there is a distinct difference between wizadry-likes and rogue-likes. Lots of overlap, wish I loved both equally, but I don't. I don't even know why they should seem so different from one another. Perhaps it is just that random element?

[Mortificator]

I think the biggest difference is that Roguelikes keep everything in one system, while Wizardry clones segregate things into two. In Rogue, you're essentially playing against the floor you're on and there's no gameplay change between moving around and fighting monsters. Wizardy has one system that's used for navigation, but when you get in a fight, you're whisked away to a battle system that works differently and is almost divorced from where you are in the dungeon.

[Ganelon]

First of all, let me just issue a clarification so folks aren't confused by the terminology. "Dungeon crawl" is probably not the best term to use for dungeon games in general. The definition makes logical sense, but the term sounds too close to "dungeon crawler," which, as has been mentioned earlier, refers to Wizardry-style games. I'm deducing that you found the "dungeon crawl" term on Wikipedia, which doesn't stress enough that its use is almost entirely confined to the P&P RPG domain. In fact, I don't recall any commercial CRPG or JRPG ever using the term.

Anyway, it took me a long time to properly enjoy dungeon games, and even now, I still only enjoy Wizardry-style dungeon crawlers due to the simple, straightforward mechanics. A big problem of many of these games is the repetition involved and the unappealing visuals of most dungeons. There's also the aspect of how much of the game you want to spend in dungeons. For me, too much time in dungeons has always led to quick burnout. It can be depressing at times. It seems most US folks feel the same way, which is why games focused on dungeons have fared so poorly in the last decade. Over time, dungeon-oriented games have trended from 100% dungeon to more and more time in pseudo-dungeons (outside areas, towers, other dimensions) with more variety and some outside environments. For example, Ultima blew past Wizardry by the 1990s thanks to its substantially increased plot and expansiveness while The Elder Scrolls has focused more and more on its world and cities with each new installment.

If you're looking for dungeon games of all genres. I'd say there are a few key types of dungeon games. All of the well-known dungeon-oriented CRPGs have slightly different rules beyond the perspective. Even within the dungeon crawler sub-genre, Wizardry has party-oriented turn-based battles, Might & Magic started with character-oriented turn-based battles, Eye of the Beholder had real-time mouse-clicking battles, and Ultima Underworld has real-time mouse-swinging battles. For roguelikes, all the classic ASCII games (NetHack, Angband, ADOM) have their own focuses and Chunsoft's Mystery Dungeon series has nearly completely defined JP level-resetting roguelikes, and no graphical CRPG has been able to match Diablo's ease of play. For hardcore dungeons in otherwise normal RPGs, Tactics Ogre has a 100-floor Hell Gate with battle after battle. Tales of Destiny has a 60-floor Tower of Druaga optional dungeon with different mechanics than in the actual game, and Estpolis II has a 99-floor randomized Ancient Cave. There are also dungeon-oriented games in other genres, such as Wizorb, Crimson Tears, Spelunker HD, but by that time, I had already realized these games weren't for me.

Once you try most of the big names, you should get a sense of what you enjoy. I definitely wouldn't force myself to enjoy them though. For example, I don't understand at all what's the big deal with recent fan favorites Torchlight and Legend of Grimrock but I do respect that the games appeal to fans who can appreciate them. If you want a taste of one of my Wizardry-style dungeon favorites, try Elminage Original on the PSP (warning: I hear the US translation is atrocious) although I don't expect everyone to enjoy it as much as I did.

[cj iwakura]

Atrocious is a strong word. It isn't Castle Shikigami 2.

It's buggy. The menus have poor translations("Friend Is Call"), and some battle commands appear in Japanese.

The script itself is competently done, I think. And yes, it's a very good game.

[Mortificator]

There doesn't seem to be any consensus on what the terms "dungeon crawl" and "dungeon crawler" mean, save that they refer to some sort of game revolving around dungeons. Terminology aside, I think first-person dungeon video games can be put in three broad categories.

1. First-person tile-based exploration. When combat occurs, a separate battle system is switched to to resolve it.
* The Wizardry series
* The Bard's Tale trilogy
* Dragon Wars
* Might and Magic I and II
* The Gold Box games
* The Dark Heart of Uukrul
* Phantasy Star
* Lots of MegaTen games
* Madou Monogatari
* Shining in the Darkness and Shining the Holy Ark
* Etrian Odyssey
* The Dark Spire
* Class of Heroes

2. First-person tile-based exploration, but battles take place in the dungeon itself in.
* Dungeon Master
* Eye of the Beholder
* Might and Magic III/IV/V
* Dungeon Hack
* Lands of Lore
* Black Crypt
* Xenomorph
* Captive
* Hired Guns
* Crystal Dragon
* Ishtar
* Abandoned Places
* Anvil of Dawn
* Mazes of Fate
* Orcs & Elves
* Legend of Grimrock

3. The first-person real-time single-character games.
* Ultima Underworld
* King's Field
* The Elder Scroll
* Shadow Tower
* Arx Fatalis

I guess I like the third category best.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Dungeons in games are like bosses - both hardly ever define a game. "Boss games" could be also talked about as a genre, ranging from Omega Fighter to Contra: Shattered Soldier.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Never mind.
Since the post's already made, I'll digress. Diablo seems prominently patterned upon roguelikes, but what I like best about it is the co-op (be it the PSX or PC version, depending on distance between gamers). Typically associated with Gauntlet and its clones (Dungeon Explorer).
Diablo was (is?) also competitively played by certain people. I doubt I've ever met any of them, but for such a hackable game, Diablo spawned quite a duelling scene.

[shmuppyLove]

3. The first-person real-time single-character games.
* Ultima Underworld
* King's Field
* The Elder Scroll
* Shadow Tower
* Arx Fatalis

I guess I like the third category best.

I remember Morrowind being super fun for random exploring. You can even make a game out of just that -- looting bandit hideouts and daedra shrines for fun and profit!

[Ganelon]

Thanks for the clarification, cj. That sounds like all the more reason for anybody new to dungeon games to give Elminage a try.

There doesn't seem to be any consensus on what the terms "dungeon crawl" and "dungeon crawler" mean, save that they refer to some sort of game revolving around dungeons.

Even if there's no consensus, there's a clear standard on what the proper terms are. Having been involved in online forums regarding electronic RPGs for over 20 years, I've never heard the term "dungeon crawl" used by any experienced RPGer and have always heard the term "dungeon crawler" used for first-person RPGs. I do recall "dungeon crawl" being officially used to describe D&D P&P adventures that focused on dungeons but, again, never in any commercial CRPG.

Wikipedia is the only place that proposes the "dungeon crawl" term but has no sources to show for its CRPG claims. If you have evidence otherwise in a manual or box, I'd be very curious since I do like to keep track of syntax to make sure my points are clear to others. Forgive me for any pedantry but unnecessary, nonstandard terms only add to ambiguity. Right now, I believe that Wikipedia is wrong in promoting the use of the "dungeon crawl" term for all RPGs and is creating needless confusion.

Dungeons in games are like bosses - both hardly ever define a game. "Boss games" could be also talked about as a genre, ranging from Omega Fighter to Contra: Shattered Soldier.

Sure, you're talking about "games set in dungeons," which is different from "dungeon crawler." Prince of Persia is a sidescroller set in a dungeon. Wizorb is a Breakout-type game set in a dungeon. Battle Hunter is an SRPG set in a dungeon (with competitive multiplayer at that). Crimson Tears is a 3D action game set in a dungeon. La Mulana is a 2D action-adventure set in a dungeon. Wizardry is not only an RPG set in a dungeon but also what many commonly define as a "dungeon crawler" due to its 1st-person perspective. NetHack is not only an RPG set in a dungeon but also what many commonly define as a "roguelike" due to its top-down ASCII visuals. See how not knowing/using the proper terms can cause confusion?

There are rules as to what a "dungeon crawler" and "roguelike" are as sub-genres within the RPG genre, but they're much greyer and sometimes skirt the "set in dungeons" requirement. For example, nobody questions ADOM's status as a roguelike even though it has plenty of outdoor areas and multiple non-dungeon areas. Might & Magic has much of the same non-dungeon aspects even though it's frequently lumped in as a dungeon crawler due to its first-person perspective. Nobody has ever put forward a definition of anything involving RPGs that everyone agrees with (to say that hundreds of newbies have tried would be an understatement) so all the experienced folks just accept the ambiguities of the genre and its sub-genres.

To summarize, "dungeon crawl" isn't a standard term when talking about electronic RPGs so I would avoid its usage. In the future, just use "games set in dungeons" instead and folks will more easily realize you're looking for a broader set of games across genres.

As for Diablo, it may have been competitive in some corners but I'd say it was unplayable except with people you knew. If anyone else here played multiplayer Battle.net and didn't encounter cheating and griefing (townkills, anyone?), then I'd be interested to hear. Complaints ultimately prompted Blizzard to add essential anti-cheating checks and bans over time to bnet for Diablo II, where the real competition started. And now, the pendulum is probably shifted in the opposite direction for Diablo III with an overemphasis on maintaining competition that prohibits hacking even in offline games.

Oh, and speaking of dungeon crawlers, to hype up the release of Etrian Odyssey IV, Atlus just reprinted the first 3 installments of the Sekaiju no Meikyuu / Etrian Odyssey series in the US/Canada. They're available again for $30 new at Amazon and other retailers. Sekaiju is the best-selling dungeon crawler series today (FYI, its combat is rooted in Wiz-style party turns) and may be worth a look if you find the chibi character designs appealing (I unfortunately can't).

[CMoon]

Oh, and speaking of dungeon crawlers, to hype up the release of Etrian Odyssey IV, Atlus just reprinted the first 3 installments of the Sekaiju no Meikyuu / Etrian Odyssey series in the US/Canada. They're available again for $30 new at Amazon and other retailers. Sekaiju is the best-selling dungeon crawler series today (FYI, its combat is rooted in Wiz-style party turns) and may be worth a look if you find the chibi character designs appealing (I unfortunately can't).

I know I've mentioned this series no less than 3 times in this thread, but honestly it is as good a place as any to mention it again. Replaying the first one now to get hyped for the new one. Of course EO1 is much more primitive, but still deeply rewarding when you finish a quest, get the right materials for a new weapon or beat a tough boss. Fortunately they quickly realized they needed to add a 'suspend' feature as some of the dungeon dives (especially once you find a heal point) become extraordinarily long.

I know there's a lot of people on here who don't or will never own a ds/3ds, but I bought the console specifically for these games, the other atlus entries and the dragon quest reissues. Old school rpgs are what this system does well--and its library is deep enough to make the purchase worth it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I certainly used the term "dungeon crawl" for lack of a better one, but there's no easy way to talk about it. If the difference I see between Diablo and Diablo II single player modes eludes you, I have no better example to give.
Surely dungeons were some of the most immersive "worlds" possible to build in early computer games. No wonder that, when possibilities allowed, games walked outside. A bit like flight sims were popular when you couldn't get any more 3D at home, but when Doom came along, flight sims were doomed.

There are, however, comebacks every now and then.
I'm pretty sure Icewind Dale was developed mainly because the engine was good just for that (I don't like the BG combat engine, but Icewind Dale got the dungeon thing right). Same with Disgaea - the engine and dungeons were a match made in heaven.
Crimson Tears does have more in common with Diablo than your average DMC-clone. The bouns dungeon should make it clear to anybody. Sure thing, Crimson Tears is not about collecting loot. As a matter of fact, entering any dungeon there with too developed equipment is a mistake. Then again, in the original Diablo played solo, death means "game over" and you restart practically barehanded.

If there's any competitive Diablo scene alive and kicking, it must be in computer-centric coutries (thus finding any "proof" in English that those people are serious about the game might be difficult). From what I know, righteous "clans" fought naughty ones; this kind of tribal stories.
In computer games, though, cheating has been always rather easy, so it's like a part of folklore now. The scene is obviously unlike arcade environment, where tournaments and such can be played on "trusted" systems.

[MX7]

Me and my girlfriend just went halfsies on an NTSC-U 3DS just for Etrian Odyssey IV, Soul Hackers and SMT IV. Stupidly excited, especially about Soul Hackers, but now I just need to find a way of buying these games without selling a kidney. Any suggestions on where I could pre-order Etrian Odyssey IV that would ship to the UK with all those bonus things?

EDIT: Went with videogamesplus.ca. Very cheap indeed. Now I've just got to wait for Etrian Odyssey IV to come out...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Started Crimson Tears on Hard last evening. The sooner you realise that to chain well is to play it well, the better. Thankfully, the chaining isn't nearly as annoying as in Vagrant Story. Quite the opposite. The most effective way I found (possible once you obtain a knife/dagger) is: enter the dungeon as knife-wielding Kaede and keep spamming: x-x-x-square. Deadly effective (and if you think it makes the game too easy, play it on Hard).
Another hint - start with a low level weapon. Once it begins to wear off faster than it levels up, sell it. By the time you reach the first boss, I doubt you won't be hooked.

Is the Ultima Underworld I&II bundle GOG sells as playable as it can be on WinXP? I hoped the first one got ported to a bit less ancient engine (I don't mind the graphics; it's the playability that concerns me).

[Jonathan Ingram]

I hoped the first one got ported to a bit less ancient engine (I don't mind the graphics; it's the playability that concerns me).

It did in a way:

[Ghegs]

I actually bought the Ultima Underworld pack from GOG last summer and played it quite a bit, but in the end the kind of clunky interface and tiny playing window (=where you actually see what's going on) did me in. Which is a shame, as I really have a soft spot for exploration-based games like this, in an environment with a lot of personality. I did play Arx Fatalis almost to the end and that was great fun, but there was some stupid sequence that I didn't care for and just dropped it. The PS1 version of Ultima Underworld looks pretty damn good, I would've loved that. Doubtful anybody will ever make a translation patch, though.

I do have the Lands of Lores bought as well, but haven't even installed them yet...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Knew about the PSX port, but it's a game with storyline after all. Those don't hurt even this kind of games. Here's hoping it will be translated like Policenauts was (also a computer game remade for consoles).
Funny that in Crimson Tears, where bosses are literally called "bosses" by one of the characters, the story is quite good (by video game standards).

[MX7]

Currently playing through Crimson Shroud, a crawler in the purest sense of the term in that it seeks to emulate the exposition of pen & paper RPGs. Designed by Yasumi Matsuno, music by Hitoshi Sakamoto, eccentric presentation and now fully translated for only $8 on the 3DS E-Shop. Lovely.

[cj iwakura]

Currently playing through Crimson Shroud, a crawler in the purest sense of the term in that it seeks to emulate the exposition of pen & paper RPGs. Designed by Yasumi Matsuno, music by Hitoshi Sakamoto, eccentric presentation and now fully translated for only $8 on the 3DS E-Shop. Lovely.

It is a wonderful game. I believe the localization was handled by Alexander Smith, and boy does it show. Big Vagrant Story vibes too.

[MX7]

Currently playing through Crimson Shroud, a crawler in the purest sense of the term in that it seeks to emulate the exposition of pen & paper RPGs. Designed by Yasumi Matsuno, music by Hitoshi Sakamoto, eccentric presentation and now fully translated for only $8 on the 3DS E-Shop. Lovely.

It is a wonderful game. I believe the localization was handled by Alexander Smith, and boy does it show. Big Vagrant Story vibes too.

I'm on Chapter 3 at the moment, still enjoying it though the length of some of the boss fights are a bit arduous... How long is the game, roughly?

[Obiwanshinobi]

One more thing about Crimson Tears - it should be perfectly playable with an arcade stick. Nothing wrong with the joypad controls (six buttons and all that), but they don't really feel analogue and I don't recall the walking speed being of any use.
That's it, I'm gonna give it a try with a pretty worn out arcade stick I have here. (Bought some time ago for peanuts, just to check out whether such a controller suits my gaming place in terms of ergonomics. It does, but obviously said stick isn't great.)

[cj iwakura]

Currently playing through Crimson Shroud, a crawler in the purest sense of the term in that it seeks to emulate the exposition of pen & paper RPGs. Designed by Yasumi Matsuno, music by Hitoshi Sakamoto, eccentric presentation and now fully translated for only $8 on the 3DS E-Shop. Lovely.

It is a wonderful game. I believe the localization was handled by Alexander Smith, and boy does it show. Big Vagrant Story vibes too.

I'm on Chapter 3 at the moment, still enjoying it though the length of some of the boss fights are a bit arduous... How long is the game, roughly?

I've heard seven hours. I'm roughly two in, after the zombie minotaur. I'm taking my time.

[MX7]

I've heard seven hours. I'm roughly two in, after the zombie minotaur. I'm taking my time.

I was two hours in after the zombie minotaur even after trying to rush through it. Guess i'm somewhat lacksidasical. Hope it's not spoiling anything but get ready for some Wizardry style item farming on chapter 2

[Moniker]

About an hour into Legend of Grimrock.

My feelings are sort of mixed. I like the fact that battles occur in realtime, although there doesn't seem to be much dynamism. You just use your weapons and dodge/strafe if possible. I'm still getting used to the rune system for mages - while it's nice to get away from a spellbook, it's fairly cumbersome in the heat of battle. I wish you could have some presets, but I guess that'd be besides the point?

The skill system also seems pretty limited. You pick two or so specialties and keep at them. For fighters and rogues, all it seems to affect is what kind of weapons you can use, and whether you want to go the tank or berserker route. It's a little more interesting for mages, probably, but even though I have just one spell (fireball) I'm reluctant to diversify. The puzzles have been nice but not particularly interesting (all pressure plates and hidden switches, of which there's only one type - small rocks - so far).

In any case, it seems to lack the great depth of the Etrian Odyssey games. Maybe I'll find it more interesting further on.

[cj iwakura]

About an hour into Legend of Grimrock.

My feelings are sort of mixed. I like the fact that battles occur in realtime, although there doesn't seem to be much dynamism. You just use your weapons and dodge/strafe if possible. I'm still getting used to the rune system for mages - while it's nice to get away from a spellbook, it's fairly cumbersome in the heat of battle. I wish you could have some presets, but I guess that'd be besides the point?

The skill system also seems pretty limited. You pick two or so specialties and keep at them. For fighters and rogues, all it seems to affect is what kind of weapons you can use, and whether you want to go the tank or berserker route. It's a little more interesting for mages, probably, but even though I have just one spell (fireball) I'm reluctant to diversify. The puzzles have been nice but not particularly interesting (all pressure plates and hidden switches, of which there's only one type - small rocks - so far).

In any case, it seems to lack the great depth of the Etrian Odyssey games. Maybe I'll find it more interesting further on.

Some of the later puzzles are very clever. Combat, sadly, never changes much shy of new gear and new spells. Also has some sadistic maps.

[SuperDeadite]

Wordsworth (original version, not the 3D remake) is my favorite in this genre. Good challenge level with a few clever puzzles, but nothing too tiring and the length is just about perfect. The way the game is "split" (hard to describe without spoilers), is a big breath of fresh air right when I needed it too. Being an Elf parody like Dragon Knight, it's hilarious. And for bonus points it's banned in Canada.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Bad news, Crimson Tears refused to run without analogue controller plugged in. Even weirder requirement than it was on Onimusha 2 (where sticks were necessary to perform certain things).
Not that you can't play Crimson Tears with a d-pad, if you want to.
By the way, spamming x-x-x-square with a knife as Kaede is harder once you upgrade knife skills, therefore I don't recommend upgrading any skills before you really "get" what the game is all about.

[cj iwakura]

I've heard seven hours. I'm roughly two in, after the zombie minotaur. I'm taking my time.

I was two hours in after the zombie minotaur even after trying to rush through it. Guess i'm somewhat lacksidasical. Hope it's not spoiling anything but get ready for some Wizardry style item farming on chapter 2

Sheesh, you weren't kidding.

[CoolgyFurlough]

I looked up some stuff for Etrian Odyssey, and it looks really fun! I've always wanted to try a game where you have to do your own cartography. I really want to play one of these, but I must know, which one out of the first three is the best for newcomers?

[Moniker]

I looked up some stuff for Etrian Odyssey, and it looks really fun! I've always wanted to try a game where you have to do your own cartography. I really want to play one of these, but I must know, which one out of the first three is the best for newcomers?

2 and 3 are both for good for those starting out. I'd say 2, since character building is a bit simpler (although still plenty deep). The first is still great, just lacks some of the nice tweaks of the sequels.

[CMoon]

Etrian Odyssey 3 is my favorite of the series, and while it is the most complicated I also think it is the most forgiving. EO3 also features a sailing component and subclassing which adds an entirely different dimension to the game. Not really sure you can go wrong with any of them though.