Best beginner / advanced / master level shooters?

[Special World]

I was thinking about this the other night. What sort of shooter progression would you recommend for new players? You probably wouldn't want to start them out on Espgaluda II, but rather something that's focused on pure survival and solid core mechanics. Maybe a game that has limited lives and continues so they can work themselves up to a multi-credit clear, before giving them a title that's meant to be 1CCed or a title where scoring is a large factor.

Maybe something along the lines of: MUSHA > Gate of Thunder > Super R-Type > Raiden Fighters Jet > Dodonpachi > Eschatos > Deathsmiles > Mars Matrix > Battle Garegga?

Do you think that's a generally good progression? What would be your reasoning for progressing them in a certain way? What points about the genre would you want to emphasize with each game?

[Erppo]

What sort of shooter progression would you recommend for new players?

All levels: play whatever you find fun.

[Special World]

What sort of shooter progression would you recommend for new players?

All levels: play whatever you find fun.

That goes without saying. But if somebody's trying to get into the genre they might not know a good place to start. So they pick up Otomedius and Radirgy, don't have any fun, and decide the genre's not for them.

I know a ton about video games, but I would have no idea where to start playing adventure games. Does Day of the Tentacle still hold up, or was it just good back in the day? People loved King's Quest, but are those generally crap now? Same with music and jazz. I would listen to Miles Davis and Charles Mingus and have no idea where to go from there.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I know a ton about video games, but I would have no idea where to start playing adventure games. Does Day of the Tentacle still hold up, or was it just good back in the day?

Rex Nebular and the Cosmic Gender Bender. Seriously. One of the best adventure games ever, easily Microprose's best, and it even has multiple riddle difficulties. Make sure you get a copy that comes with the game log that was bundled with the original game, cause it's just as hilarious to readthrough as the game itself is to play. It doesn't have any unwinnable situations either (as far as I know, the only possibility is one puzzle that's only on Expert I can think of might be rendered unwinnable if you mess up too many times then save after you've used up the items incorrectly, not tested this yet), so it's not frustrating to play.

As far as shmups go, there's so many that offer multiple difficulties & courses, as well as enjoyment both for people purely playing for the 1CC/survival as well as trying to seriously maximize their score, that you could easily just pick one with a theme you like and go with it. Only a few shmups like Garegga or Galuda II are generally thought to be bad territory for newbies as far as I can tell.

[Erppo]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that I don't think you can make a meaningful classification like this. Unless a game is really easy and lacks any scoring depth, it should be a good pick for players of any level.

I don't know if you meant anything by your example list or if it's just a list of random games, but I can use that as an example. RFJ is rather low in that list, but the game is filled with all sorts of advanced tricks meaning it's a good pick for good players too. DDP is around the middle, even though just clearing it is harder than any other listed game. Garegga is at the top while it's not that hard and a lot of the scoring in it is rather simple.

[To Far Away Times]

Start with Touhou or Deathsmiles, and start going for the 1CC right away.

[Hagane]

I think the only way you could tackle this is measuring how forgiving games are at start. From my experience:

Low starting difficulty:

Touhou
Mushis
DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu
Deathsmiles
Espgaluda
Akai Katana
Battle Bakraid
Armed Police Batrider

Intermediate starting difficulty:

DoDonPachi
Battle Garegga
Sengoku Blade
Strikers 1999
Raiden Fighters Jet
Cyvern
Espgaluda II

Less forgiving starting difficulty:

Ketsui
Progear
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou
Dragon Blaze
Gunbird 2
Image Fight
Pink Sweets
Gradius III
Great Mahou Daisakusen

But still the games in the first and second group can become as hard or even harder than the less forgiving ones if you are trying to maximize score or pick harder difficulty modes if available. Most games are hard if played to maximize score.

[trap15]

I agree with Erppo. Don't pick games to play based on difficulty. Play games you like. If you really like them, you'll play them regardless of the difficulty.

Playing for a 1CC collection is silly, just play what's fun.

[Squire Grooktook]

I usually don't care about the difficulty, as long as it's hard enough to be exciting. I don't "get mad" or frustrated with games, so being slightly overwhelmed earlier on isn't a problem with me (so long as it's clear that I'm getting wrecked because of my own lack of skill, not because it's a poorly designed game).

For that, like everyone else says, I would just recommend what I find really fun.

On the other hand, if you want a game that's fairly forgiving difficulty wise but still very fun and classic, then I'd recommend:

Gradius III SNES
Axelay
Touhou

I don't know if Gradius III and Axelay are really that easy, or it's just Mega Man 2 syndrome where I have every stage layout drilled into my head from playing it to death in my childhood. Axelay and Touhou also are pretty forgiving when it comes to distributing 1ups, compared to a lot of arcade shooters.

[chum]

Touhou

which?

Don't we get threads of this nature all the time anyway

like some people enjoy not being able to pass level 3 in gunbird 2, skill doesn't dictate taste, etc everyone's been over all this already

[Squire Grooktook]

Touhou

which?

I dunno, depends on your tastes. Personally I liked EOSD, SA, and UFO the best. But a lot of peeps like PCB and IN. Doesn't really matter, they're all fun (except Ten Desires, apparently).

[Deca]

EOSD, SA, and UFO are probably the most difficult in ascending order

But yes, as has been said a thousand times over, don't worry about perceived difficulty at all. Even if the game is "easy" you'll find it difficult to commit time to meaningful practice and your progress will suffer considerably. Just play a bunch of stuff until something grabs you.

[Special World]

Well, I was actually writing a sort of "introduction to shooters" article (I know it's done to death, but it's what I wanted to do with my free time). So I'm not worried about games I'd find easy or interesting or whatever, but rather a list of shooters that have notable features that could wean players into the genre.

Take Gate of Thunder for example - there's little scoring depth, and the emphasis is on pure survival. That said, it's a great game for beginners because they can focus on the cool core mechanic/gimmick of changing shot direction, the difficulty isn't too brutal, and it limits your lives and checkpoints so it's not a pure credit-feeder. It's a study in the fundamental aspects that make a great shooter without needing the insider's perspective of 1CCing or scoring.

Something like Dodonpachi amps up the challenge a bit, and relies upon the player to impose their own limitations - the 1CC. That said, it's a great introduction to bullet hell because it maintains the stylistic trappings of earlier shooters and doesn't go overboard with bullet waves. In addition, the scoring system is great for intermediate players because it's simple enough to intuitively grasp. Most gamers have played something with a combo meter, and it just makes sense to try and go for a higher combo when you can. The mechanics are really very transparent, even if it is a bastard to score well in.

Mars Matrix DC is, in my opinion, the game that will make somebody love high scores. You take those high scores and translate them into tangible benefit via the in-game shop. The difficulty's absolutely brutal, but it maintains an emphasis on solid core mechanics combined with scoring. The mosquito mechanic is great in itself, and really gives players the idea that even though the game is tough, there's always a way out. Plus, there are the replays, which do a great job of showing players how high the ceiling goes.

It's not so much a "this game is good for beginners and this game is good for advanced players" sort of deal, but rather "a beginner can learn a lot about genre structure from this, and when they've learned that lesson they can move onto the next." Some of the games are very mutable - Raiden Fighters Jet and Battle Garegga in particular are great for either advanced or master level play.

Your responses seem to show that this is a bad idea, but let me know if it makes a little more sense now that I've explained it. Because I really do think there are interesting lessons that can be learned about the design of these games past "always 1CC and score high," and these lessons are mutable based on familiarity with the genre. If you had me play Battle Garegga right off the golden bat, I'd probably say it's garbage. But since I've accumulated a foundation for these games, it's really easy to appreciate its design.

[evil_ash_xero]

Interesting thread(I think so anyway).

I found that the shift from normal shmups to bullet hell was pretty freaky. I mean, I was lost. So, that jump right there should be handled pretty carefully. I've let my friends play Mushi Futari, and they level of suck they have going on, is pretty sad. They sucked at Death Smiles too, so there you go. It's a big change of pace.

As mentioned above Do DonPachi is a great introduction to bullet hell. It's simple to understand, and has a good difficulty curve. Death Smiles is way easier, but for some reason my friends had trouble getting the "shoot left, shoot right, strong shot, weak shot, hyper, bomb, lock on" stuff down.

[Bananamatic]

Start with Pink Sweets, it has infinite bombs

[Ed Oscuro]

Who needs infinite bombs when you have infinite bullets?

Also, Toaplan bomb pride bonuses. 5000+

[shmuppyLove]

Start with Pink Sweets, it has infinite bombs

Too funny. But actually, if you only use the Rose Cracker as a shield and know how to cancel it by changing speed (and also some other tricks for controlling rank), Pink Sweets is pretty fun and not too hard.

Almost has infinite bombs - Batsugun Special Version

Also, I just managed a Bakraid Normal clear, and the only other 1CC I have is Crimzon Clover Original mode.

I would say Bakraid if you're not playing for score was actually not super difficult.

[lilmanjs]

Gunbird 2 when playing in mame is pretty easy on the default region. Once switching to the Japan region its very un-forgiving. So if you wonder why its listed as hard when playing in mame and it doesn't seem that way, there's a good reason.

[Special World]

I think one really big problem when discussing STGs is that 1CCing and scoring really are such a large part of the appeal, but there's really no good way to talk about it without making people who don't 1CC or try for score feel like you're insulting them.

Like, they're not playing it wrong because they're ignoring these elements. Some people ignore those elements and have an absolute blast. But if they're playing the games and not really having any fun, they should really try out the elements that fans love about the genre. It's especially frustrating because it's not a problem in other genres. People expect that they'll have go for killsteaks in FPS games and huge combos in 3D brawlers. But tell them they should aim for a 1CC or new personal high score in an STG and it seems like the strangest concept in the world.

[trap15]

People expect that they'll have go for killsteaks in FPS games and huge combos in 3D brawlers. But tell them they should aim for a 1CC or new personal high score in an STG and it seems like the strangest concept in the world.

I think that's mostly because killstreaks and combos have a very clear result: in FPS, it usually gives you special items or whatever; in fighters, it helps you win the fight and defeat your opponent.
In STG, sure a 1CC does have a clear result, but scoring? Scoring's only result is that little number in the top-left going up faster. Not really anything an average person would care about.

[To Far Away Times]

I think the best way is to offer games that limit or don't have continues.

Before I'd ever heard of this mythical "1CC" I played Contra: Shattered Controller on PS2. The game has limited continues, you can't access the last stage unless you 1CC up to that point, and it has a grading system for each level.

The game encourages you to practice on a stage by stage basis to get a higher grade for each stage. IIRC, when the stage ends you see your all-time best grade, and then how you compare on your current run.

I didn't realize it at the time, but it was conditioning me for the 1CC. Though I never got the 1CC, I put something like 20 hours into that game and was getting more replay value out of it, even though I never really had the 1CC mindset at the time.

[casualcoder]

In STG, sure a 1CC does have a clear result, but scoring? Scoring's only result is that little number in the top-left going up faster. Not really anything an average person would care about.

Getting extra lives is often tied into scoring. So are other helpful side effects like slowdown, and learning proper technique. I'm not a stickler about scoring when first trying to 1cc, but I often look at scoring for a way to play the game properly. chances are, if you know how to score well you know the game system better which will help you better survive.

[Squire Grooktook]

People expect that they'll have go for killsteaks in FPS games and huge combos in 3D brawlers. But tell them they should aim for a 1CC or new personal high score in an STG and it seems like the strangest concept in the world.

I think that's mostly because killstreaks and combos have a very clear result: in FPS, it usually gives you special items or whatever; in fighters, it helps you win the fight and defeat your opponent.
In STG, sure a 1CC does have a clear result, but scoring? Scoring's only result is that little number in the top-left going up faster. Not really anything an average person would care about.

It really depends on the game (scoring in an endless game, like Robotron, is different then in a finite game), but I also think scoring really needs the competitive element to be satisfying. You can't help but love that feeling of pride when you go back to your arcade and see that top score of yours still there month's later that nobody has managed to beat.

[Special World]

People expect that they'll have go for killsteaks in FPS games and huge combos in 3D brawlers. But tell them they should aim for a 1CC or new personal high score in an STG and it seems like the strangest concept in the world.

I think that's mostly because killstreaks and combos have a very clear result: in FPS, it usually gives you special items or whatever; in fighters, it helps you win the fight and defeat your opponent.
In STG, sure a 1CC does have a clear result, but scoring? Scoring's only result is that little number in the top-left going up faster. Not really anything an average person would care about.

That's only this generation of FPS games, though. Before Modern Warfare, killstreaks/multikills/etc were only rewarded by the announcer shouting out TRIPLE KILL or M-M-M-MONSTER KILL rather than any tangible in-game benefit. It's just as arbitrary as being rewarded by an increasing counter and an explosion of gems. And yet it was instantly understood - I want to kill people as fast as I can and not die doing it.

Not dying is the central idea behind 90% of games, and I really just think it's "don't continue" that really confuses people. Like TFAT said, shooters that manage your continues really make a whole lot more sense to the average player. I think more shooters should take Mars Matrix's approach of unlocking continues via a score-based shop, or at least Ikaruga's approach of unlocking continues as you play. It's really one of those things that's so obvious I can't believe Cave et al haven't caught onto it.

Combos do help you out in brawlers like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, but you have to admit that it runs much deeper than that. They're not seen as tools of utility but rather fetishizations much like a gem explosion in Futari. You're not in it to kill the opponent, you're in it to slash and shoot and juggle and maim until you get that Stylish combo five minutes later.

As far as needing a competitive element, I think the best competitive element is competing against myself. You can play shooters like a race or you can play them like endurance training. I love seeing how far I've come, and beating my own score matters more than anyone else's. But that's also because I don't have the proper arcade experience, and I'm not really good enough to top any leaderboards. If I could do that, I'm sure I'd love it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Combos in brawlers are a lot different then combos in fighting games or competitive brawlers (Anarchy Reigns ftw). You absolutely positively need combos in a fighting game to have a reasonable chance of winning, otherwise your just seriously gimping yourself. A game like Bayonetta you can probably make it to the end without doing anything really spectacular in the combo department.

Also personally, whether I play "against myself" really depends on what kind of scoring system it is. If it's an endless game (Robotron, Gradius), where scoring is ultimately a way to track how long you survived (and how well you did), then I absolutely love playing for score.

On a game that's finite but simple in scoring, like say the older R-Types or many older traditional shooters, I don't think I'd enjoy playing against myself at all. Mostly because in games like that, it's mostly just a matter of memorizing when and where each and every enemy spawns. And if you forget one popcorn enemy, you have to just restart the game. Not fun IMO.

For a game where getting a good score requires a risk/reward trade off between high scoring and survival (Rayforce, Dodonpachi), I would very much enjoy playing against myself, because I could see myself improve as I take the harder and harder routes through the game over time.

But with competition, I think all of them can be fun. Competition makes everything better.

[Special World]

Right, that's why I said brawler and not fighting game :O

And I agree, it has to be the right kind of game. I think games like Gate of Thunder and R-Type have more instant appeal because their focus is more on core mechanics rather than the abstract appeal of 1CCing and high scoring.

[To Far Away Times]

Right, that's why I said brawler and not fighting game :O

And I agree, it has to be the right kind of game. I think games like Gate of Thunder and R-Type have more instant appeal because their focus is more on core mechanics rather than the abstract appeal of 1CCing and high scoring.

Also, they don't look intimidating when you're watching someone play.

[Hagane]

You absolutely positively need combos in a fighting game to have a reasonable chance of winning, otherwise your just seriously gimping yourself.

Depends on the game (and the character) really. In Street Fighter especially, combos are not really necessary if you have good spacing/zoning/ground game.

[Squire Grooktook]

You absolutely positively need combos in a fighting game to have a reasonable chance of winning, otherwise your just seriously gimping yourself.

Depends on the game (and the character) really. In Street Fighter especially, combos are not really necessary if you have good spacing/zoning/ground game.

True. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that fundamentals are always more important then combos. That being said, you're still needlessly gimping yourself if you don't at least learn the basics, and will probably suffer a lot of frustrating defeats because even though you landed more hits on him then he did you, he was doing triple damage with each hit. You can still win if you're good, you just need to be even better then you would be normally.

It's different in a brawler because you're not so much focusing on reading or mind gaming your opponent (being a cpu and all).

[Despatche]

the day people stop worrying about difficulty is the day this genre revives itself all proper-like

...wait a minute

I think games like Gate of Thunder and R-Type have more instant appeal because their focus is more on core mechanics rather than the abstract appeal of 1CCing and high scoring.

...what? this is the most insane statement i have ever heard or read.

(strikers 1999 and gunbird 2 should NEVER be in separate difficulty categories)