Thinking about getting a 360 for the shmups (advice?)

[Squire Grooktook]

So I'm thinking about getting an Xbox for the shmups, but I'm wondering if it's worth it considering the price, the fact that a new xbox might be on the way soon, and the fact that I really wannna support Nintendo and buy a Wii U and 3ds. I also have a friend who's big into hardware, owns both systems, and plays a lot of shmups, but warns me that it's not worth it because the 360 is just "really not that good a system" and is more likely to run crappily and give me a rrod then any enjoyment.

So is it worth it?

Also games I'm thinking I'd get if I did buy it:

Akai Katana
Otomedius Excellent
Radiant Silvergun
Ikaragua
Raiden IV
Insect Princess

And probably some other stuff I'm forgetting/haven't looked up if region locked or not yet.

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Special World]

I would choose the 360 over any other console for shooters. It's a fantastic system. You'll have to weigh whether it's worth missing out on a WiiU and 3DS, but I don't know why you need to "support" Nintendo. They're doing just fine. I think the software library on the 360 is outrageously good in general, though if you got one for shooters you'd probably want a J360.

Others (and you) might disagree, but I don't even think your list of games scratches the surface of the best shooters on 360. Mushi Futari Black Label, Muchi Pork / Pink Sweets, Eschatos, Raiden Fighters Aces, Ketsui, Deathsmiles, and Geometry Wars 2 are the best shooters on the system, imo.

[Jeneki]

When you say "considering the price", would you be getting a Japanese 360, or a domestic one with the titles available in your region? Also are you in PAL or NTSC land?

Pretty sure most of those titles are available outside Japan, other than Mushihimesama 1. (Futari is region free though)

[Squire Grooktook]

Well, it's not just for supporting Nintendo, but there are certainly a lot of games on Wii U and 3ds I'm looking forward to. Especially with Platinum Games making a few games for them (Bayonetta 2 being the most obvious).

And yeah, the game list is incomplete, but that's just off the top of my head. Feedback on any of those games mentioned would also be appreciated.

I think the software library on the 360 is outrageously good in general, though if you got one for shooters you'd probably want a J360.

And how much of a difference would a J360 make? Like what percentage of good shmups would be cut off from me if I went with a western console?

When you say "considering the price", would you be getting a Japanese 360, or a domestic one with the titles available in your region? Also are you in PAL or NTSC land?

Not sure which one I'm going with (see above). As for price I just know buying a new console and a lot of games would be expensive regardless of the option I took. Also I'm in NTSC.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Where is Deathsmiles on that list? Where is Espgaulda II? What's wrong with you?

You can build a nice shmups library even with a PAL xbox. I bought the 360 just to play Futari and that alone would have been enough to justify this console.

Check out Elixiers nice list (games that are region-free are marked a such): http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23501

You are doing yourself a disservice as a shmup player by NOT owning a 360 this gen.

[ncc]

I highly recommend getting one. I still have to use other people's 360s and am constantly wishing I had my own. Modding them to play games outside your region is way easier these days then it used to be, so a J360 isn't explicitly required. While I still had an apartment I used my roommate's modded 360 to play the shooters that were region-locked, but there's a pretty large number that either aren't, or are available in NTSC-U. In terms of selection and sheer number of titles, you can't really go wrong with the 360, whether you're talking about shooting games or not.

[Special World]

The WiiU and 3DS libraries do look like they're gonna be pretty bangin, yeah. I fucking love my 360, though. Best console since the SNES, and I assume the new models don't have all the old problems.

And how much of a difference would a J360 make? Like what percentage of good shmups would be cut off from me if I went with a western console?

Not really much, actually. The first Mushihimesama (good), Ketsui (great), and Dodonpachi DOJ (great). For me, the main loss would be Ketsui, which is just fantastic even though it's way way too hard for me. When I bought my J360 the pickings were a lot slimmer, but I would still make the same decision today if I had the disposable income.

Probably some more games that I can't think of or don't care about, but that's the extent of it as far as I'm concerned.

And I would say Mushi Futari Black Label is tied for my favorite game of all time. It's unbelievably good. It still totally blows me away sometimes.

[Special World]

also I have never heard anything good said about Otomedius, so I wouldn't pay a lot for it

[Jeneki]

Japan region-locked shmups (disc based):

DoDonPachi (on Instant Brain disc)
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou Black Label
DoDonPachi Daifukattsu Black Label - Ketsupachi mode (other game modes are on the region-free PAL release)
Ketsui
Mamoru-Kun (PS3 version is region free though)
Mushihimesama 1 (Futari is regon free though)
Otomedius Gorgeous (Excellent is in North America though)
Radirgy Noa
Senko no Ronde Duo (First one is available in North America though)
Shikigami III (also on Wii in North America)
Shooting Love 200X
Strike Witches
Under Defeat (also on PS3 in North America)

[Squire Grooktook]

also I have never heard anything good said about Otomedius, so I wouldn't pay a lot for it

I was told that "if you don't let aesthetics bother you (which I don't) and you like Gradius (which I do) then you'll like Otomedius". Second opinions would be nice though.

Anyway, I would probably go with US 360. I could just play Ketsui and DDP DOJ on Mame, and then mod the 360 if I really needed to.

Actually here's a good question: Which is easier: Simply modding the 360, or ordering a J360, and all the importing I'd have to (not to mention buying yen on JXBLA).

[Jeneki]

The online leaderboards have tons of really good replays to study, so I wouldn't go with a modded system.

[KAI]

Modding, it works wonders.

[iconoclast]

Aside from the exclusive shumps, the best thing about owning a J360 is having access to the Japanese leaderboards. Pretty much every game has a bunch of high-level replays up for download, unlike the western versions. (This doesn't apply to region free or XBLA games)

[Squire Grooktook]

Aside from the exclusive shumps, the best thing about owning a J360 is having access to the Japanese leaderboards. Pretty much every game has a bunch of high-level replays up for download, unlike the western versions. (This doesn't apply to region free or XBLA games)

That sounds nice, but couldn't the best of these also be found archived on super play sites and whatnot?

[Softdrink 117]

Yes, technically, and if you also count YouTube and nicovideo there are a decent number of high level replays available. However, I personally find the convenience of being able to watch a replay and immediately transition into play to put some of what I've learned into action a VERY cool feature. Also, the sheer number of available replays on the leaderboards provides a huge amount of variety in strategy for some games (EG Ketsui).

I actually started a very similar thread on Cave-STG before it died, and the overwhelming response was to go with the J360. Modding wasn't an option for me because I enjoy playing some non-shmup games with friends, and there's always the risk of being console banned if you're caught online using a modded system. I imported the console, used an upgrade hard drive to bump up my storage space, and have absolutely no regrets.

[pestro87]

I also own a Japanese 360 and I second what everyone here is saying. Also, you can use the X360 power adapter that's designed for your own region so you don't have to worry about AC converters.

[Squire Grooktook]

I see. Another three questions:

1: How easy is it to obtain points for the JXBLA for downloadable games?

2: How much more expensive in general will it be to get a J360 and deal almost entirely in imports? If it's going to be hundreds of dollars more expensive then it would be otherwise, I don't think I can afford to go with that just for a few extra games and the leaderboards.

3: Now this is kind of hard to say, but given the next Xbox might be coming soon, what do you think about maybe waiting for THAT?

[Jeneki]

Several online retailers will sell you points, quite easy if you're used to dealing with import shops. I prefer ones that will email me a code right away opposed to mailing me a card, however you may prefer the latter.

If you don't mind used games, check Amazon and you may be surprised. Look for the "new from" and "used from" links under the main price. Ketsui shipped for $24!? *edit* That one is gone, now the cheapest one is around $40.

Otherwise, yea new import stuff is in the $80-100 range due to the #$%&ing exchange rate.

Next-gen system? That's always the best time to buy a current-gen unit, as people start dumping their games at rock bottom prices.

[Softdrink 117]

1: How easy is it to obtain points for the JXBLA for downloadable games?

I personally have never needed to do this; however, from what I've seen it's fairly easy to purchase points either digitally via proxy (EG have a forum member or service do it for you) or in card form from an import site like NCS or Play-Asia.

2: How much more expensive in general will it be to get a J360 and deal almost entirely in imports? If it's going to be hundreds of dollars more expensive then it would be otherwise, I don't think I can afford to go with that just for a few extra games and the leaderboards.

The region free games cost the same whether you buy an import console or not. As far as the specific games in question, it really depends. The ones in highest demand are probably Ketsui and Mushi HD, both of which can be found for about $100. Dai Ou Jou tends to be around $80-$90. If the game has a 'The Best' or 'Wonder Price' or 'Platinum' release, though, it might be much closer to a normal retail price. I bought Deathsmiles, AK, and Espgaluda II for $50 each. Used will be MUCH cheaper as well.

The other thing to consider is that historically most Xbox NTSC-U games are actually region free. So I have old, cheap US copies of Bayonetta, Vanquish, Gears of War (all 3), the Halo games, Crackdown, etc. You'll definitely want to check a region compatibility guide before assuming something will work, but for the most part you won't need to import a game that's released domestically in your area. This is, however, changing for the worse recently, with more and more games starting to be released region-locked. A little bit of research will let you tell the difference readily enough.

3: Now this is kind of hard to say, but given the next Xbox might be coming soon, what do you think about maybe waiting for THAT?

Like you said: hard to say. Given the trend with Microsoft's consoles, backwards compatibility won't be guaranteed. AFAIK, it hasn't been formally announced yet, so there's no word on when a release will occur, what the pricing will be, and what kinds of games will be launching with it. There's also no info (IIRC) about how expensive dev kits will be, and how much licensing fees will be attributed to games-- so there's no way to know that Microsoft platforms will even be utilized by shmup devs going forward. Given the relatively close ties between CAVE and Microsoft Japan, it's probably safe to assume that they will at least develop for the new console; even so, it's far too early to know whether any shmups will be among the lineup.

The short version: I wouldn't wait.

[Special World]

tbh you're going to want to get some imports anyhow

a lot of the best games will play on any region system but never got a US/PAL release

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Dude, just ask yourself: "How much do I play?"

If you are a casual like me and only play from time to time to fix your shmup addiction, you should stay busy for the next couple of years. Seriously, just check out the RETAIL games you can already get with a ntsc box:

DDP DFK
Akai Katana
Deathsmiles
MMP/Pink Sweets
Espgaulda II
Mushi Futari
Eschatos
Under Defeat HD
Bullet Soul
Wartech (Senko no Ronde)
Raiden Fighters Aces
Raiden IV

There is probably more that I forgot. Seriously, that is more than enough for a generation.

I can't answer question 1 and 2 but waiting for the next xbox is not a good idea, imo. First of all we still don't know how MS will handle the backwards compatibility (it might be like the first xbox and will only be compatible with a few selected games). Also shmups devs tends to support the older gen longer before they jump to the next gen. And lastly you are buying a more expensive console with some nice early adopter hardware problems (RROD says hi).

If you have enough disposable income get a J-Box, if money is a matter a NTSC version should be just fine.

And fuck Otomedius. Jesus fuck, man.

[rancor]

And fuck Otomedius. Jesus fuck, man.

Seriously. I almost instantly regretted that purchase.

[Squire Grooktook]

It looks like I'm just going to have to sit down and compile a list of all the games I might want to get, compare region, price, how long I can live without it, etc. And then carefully weigh my options and make the best choice I can.

And yeah, I was thinking that even with Xbox720, devs may still support 360 for quite a while, so I'll probably commit to 360.

@Teufel_in_Blau

I'm probably leaning toward NTSC, that list sounds like it's more then I could want. I would love to get easy access to replays, and own DDP DOJ on console, but I'm still somewhat daunted by the prospect of setting up a Japanese 360, XBLA, and whatnot. All for maybe 3 or 4 games and some replays.

Still like I said, I'll have to ultimately look up all the games/regions/prices and see what the best thing I can go for is before I commit to either option.

In the mean time, I should probably focus on learning more about the games I'm interested in. Like Eschatos, Raiden 4, Espgaluda, Death Smiles, etc. Seeing if they are my style, learning about their mechanics and whatnot. (I might need a separate thread for that, or maybe just a lot of forum lurking heh)

[chempop]

If you can live without 360 ports of:

Ketsui
DDP DOJ
Mushi 1.5 (the first Mushi, not Futari)
DDP DFK BL Arrange
and a few of the non-cave titles (Shiki 3, Shooting Love, etc)

...then get the US 360. The other benefit of getting the games that are US/EU region is that they are a lot cheaper. I'm talking about:

Raiden 4
Raiden Fighters Aces
Deathsmiles
Akai Katana
DDP DFK

Good luck.

[ncc]

I never cared much for anything a console offered that modding would ruin, so I would go for a US 360, but that's just me. If you're looking for deep discounts on a new(ish) console, wait until Microsoft gets closer to launching their new box. People will firesale everything they own so they can get in on the shitty launch titles. You'll be able to nab a mint 360 slim for a fraction of what you'd pay otherwise, and all it takes is some time. Start collecting those 360 games while you wait. The Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets reprint is out on the 21st, and Eschatos can be picked up brand new for a decent price. Raiden Fighters Aces or Akai Katana can be picked up for $10 used if you manage to find them at a Gamestop.

[Squire Grooktook]

If you can live without 360 ports of:

Ketsui
DDP DOJ
Mushi 1.5 (the first Mushi, not Futari)
DDP DFK BL Arrange
and a few of the non-cave titles (Shiki 3, Shooting Love, etc)

...then get the US 360. The other benefit of getting the games that are US/EU region is that they are a lot cheaper. I'm talking about:

Raiden 4
Raiden Fighters Aces
Deathsmiles
Akai Katana
DDP DFK

Good luck.

I'll have to evaluate these on a game by game basis. Like for example, Shiki 3 I can get on Wii. But is the BL arrange of DFK really really good that I might kick myself for not having it?

[casualcoder]

You sound like a very young guy. This console-specific mentality isnt totally new but I don't recall there being such lack of objectivity as there has been with this generation of consoles. It's especially funny given that games and game libraries have never been more similar on the top 2 systems. When I was a kid, the kind of stuff we debated heatedly over super-socco and sandwhiches was which system handled what types of games better. Not which system was, in totality, better than the other (except for the lone kid who ended up with a Sega game gear while the rest of us traded amongst ourselves our spinach-colored gameboy games).

The top 2 systems right now are basically the same in all respects except for genre specific titles. To make things simple for you, if you are looking at the genre of STGs, the existing library on the X360 cannot be compared to any other system currently on the market. Almost all of the STGs worth playing are on the X360. There is no sense maintaining loyalty to a brand or system (how loyal do you think Sony or MS would be to you in return?) if all of these great games are on another system.

It's all about the games, not the platform. That's how it's always been. You can get an X360 for $70 (not the old RRod prone version but the 4gb arcade version), or even an old Dreamcast for probably under $50. Screw "Xbox Live Gold" or "PSN Plus". The system is a conduit. Get the one that brings you the most games you want to play and if you really want to support an entity, consider supporting the actual game developers.

[Special World]

I wouldn't worry about setting up a Japanese console being a hassle. It's just as easy as using a US console. All you have to do is set the region to "Japan" when it asks.

[Squire Grooktook]

You sound like a very young guy. This console-specific mentality isnt totally new but I don't recall there being such lack of objectivity as there has been with this generation of consoles. It's especially funny given that games and game libraries have never been more similar on the top 2 systems. When I was a kid, the kind of stuff we debated heatedly over super-socco and sandwhiches was which system handled what types of games better. Not which system was, in totality, better than the other (except for the lone kid who ended up with a Sega game gear while the rest of us traded amongst ourselves our spinach-colored gameboy games).

The top 2 systems right now are basically the same in all respects except for genre specific titles. To make things simple for you, if you are looking at the genre of STGs, the existing library on the X360 cannot be compared to any other system currently on the market. Almost all of the STGs worth playing are on the X360. There is no sense maintaining loyalty to a brand or system (how loyal do you think Sony or MS would be to you in return?) if all of these great games are on another system.

It's all about the games, not the platform. That's how it's always been. You can get an X360 for $70 (not the old RRod prone version but the 4gb arcade version), or even an old Dreamcast for probably under $50. Screw "Xbox Live Gold" or "PSN Plus". The system is a conduit. Get the one that brings you the most games you want to play and if you really want to support an entity, consider supporting the actual game developers.

Believe me, I have no loyalty to console, region, etc. I just play whatever gets me the games I love.

At this point, I don't really see any other option for playing some of these games, except maybe if I were to start collecting the original pcb boards or whatever for the arcade verisons, but I don't see that happening and it still would leave me in the dark for the console exclusive games.

I'm also familiar with all the older systems. I actually own a dreamcast, and still have my Nes, Super Nes, Genesis, and gameboy (though the first 3 aren't hooked up right now, but I could easily do so).

I wouldn't worry about setting up a Japanese console being a hassle. It's just as easy as using a US console. All you have to do is set the region to "Japan" when it asks.

I see. Reading up, it seems you can set the dashboard/menu's etc to english. I assume you could do the same for xbla and the market place or whatever, right?

[Special World]

I actually don't know, I haven't had to use the marketplace for any of the games I've played on my J360. Some of them came with DLC codes but I just had to enter in the number on the card.