10th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[jugemscloud]

i can understand it being viewed as a gallery shooter as there are a couple of gallery sections and its visual presentation is certainly of that style with the exception of one level. to me all shmups on the list are rail shooters and also third person as thats in terms of player viewpoint, though im guessing a "proper" rail shooter is something like hotd or time crisis . i dont want to some across as someone new trying to force my optinions on a well established tradition here, so ill have a look through the previous discussion threads and see if theres anything directly about s+p and what was mentioned, and the eligibilty factors in considering a title to be added.

[Mortificator]

Vulgus is essentially a single unending Zanac stage with the straight crusher as your only subweapon. It's fun, and Dale and Rob voted for it too, but I'd rather play Zanac and have a little more variety.

I counted the games per developer in my vote.

When I do that, I get...
Alfa System - 1
Capcom - 1
Cave - 2
Compile - 1
Irem - 2
Kaneko - 1
Konami - 2
Namco - 1
Psikyo - 1
Raizing - 2
Red - 1
Seibu Kaihatsu - 1
Square - 1
Taito - 1
Takumi - 1
Technosoft - 1
Toaplan - 2
Treasure - 1
Video System - 1
ZUN - 1

[trap15]

My tally:

(5) Raizing [Counts Ibara and Pink Sweets Arrange]
(5) Cave
(3) Toaplan
(3) NMK
(2) Psikyo
(2) Taito
(2) Irem
(1) Seibu Kaihatsu
(1) Oriental Soft
(1) Takumi

Well then.

[system11]

Cave 6
Raizing 4
Irem 3
Treasure 2
Compile 2
Technosoft 2
Seibu 2
Toaplan 1
Konami 1
Zun 1
Visco 1
Square 1

So I'm a Cave whore then. Upsetting.

[chempop]

So I'm a Cave whore then. Upsetting.

I know how you feel. My original list (not posted yet) had 7 cave games, but I'm going to replay everything I own before making a final decision. I am tempted to submit a list with mostly horis and only my top couple cave games though

[louisg]

Mine (over 2): 2x compile, 2x psikyo, 2x raizing, 2x red, 3x taito, 2x takumi, 2x technosoft

[nZero]

So I'm a Cave whore then. Upsetting.

Technically so am I it seems, maybe it's just because the company has been so prolific. It's not that easy for me to consider MMP and DSMBL as "Cave games" though. Looks like my list got a fair amount of variety, even though I wasn't trying for it.

Cave - 4
Seibu Kaihatsu - 3
Success/Skonec - 2
G.Rev - 2
Technosoft - 2
Warashi - 1
Moss - 1
Toaplan - 1
Hudson/RED - 1
M-KAI/Qute - 1
Raizing - 1
Takumi - 1
Milestone - 1
Taito - 1
Psikyo - 1
Capcom - 1
Yotsubane - 1

[To Far Away Times]

My vote went like this:

Cave 7
Zun 4
Technosoft 3
Taito 2
Konami 2
Raizing 2
Irem 1
Toaplan 1
Compile 1
Red 1
Studio Siesta 1

[Zaarock]

My vote:

4 Cave
4 Raizing
3 G.Rev
3 Taito
1 Psikyo
1 Treasure
1 Konami
1 Seibu
1 Hudson
1 Compile
1 Yumekobo/Aicom
1 Kaneko
1 Siter Skain
1 M-Kai
1 Ruminant's Whimper

Pretty much what I expected. Starting to get hard to choose what to leave out now :d

[Mero]

Taito 4
Konami 3
Video System 3
Psikyo 2
Namco 2
Capcom 2
NMK 1
Moss 1
ADK 1
Cave 1
Sega 1
SKonec 1
Milestone 1
Irem 1
Aicom 1


Not too bad developer diversity

[EmperorIng]

Taito: 4
Psikyo: 3
CAVE: 3

IREM: 2
Toaplan: 2
Konami: 2
Raizing: 2
Takumi: 2

G.REV: 1
MOSS: 1
Tecnosoft: 1
Capcom: 1
ChoRenSha: 1 (ha)

All the usual suspects, you could say.

The bottom spot of my vote was locked in a mortal struggle between Darius II and Ikaruga. I eventually decided that I liked being utterly frustrated by Darius II a bit more than being utterly frustrated by Ikaruga.

I believe I deserve scorn for even having Darius II on my ballot, but this love/hate relationship I have with this game is bizarre and intense and makes me do weird things (like play Darius II).

Other shmups in my "honorable mentions":
Ketsui
-I really like this one, and as far as Cave scoring systems go, it's tolerable, but point-blanking + Cave spreads = not quite there. I am sure I am not playing correctly and/or am an idiot, but oh well.

Battle Mania Daiginjou
-Probably my second-favorite console shooter, next to TF3. Lots of fun, great design and great weapons. A little hypocritical considering TF3 made the spot, but it's a little too easy!

Metal Black
-Almost knocked out Darius II's spot (the great struggle) but the lack of any feasible way of defending your backside (or anywhere not immediately in front of you) puts it out of the running.

Dangun Feveron
-Probably second-best Cave scoring system; it's a good game, not a "best of all time" game.

[BIL]

I'm happy with my list's diversity, but I would be since I've always approached this as a "desert island discs" thing and I like lots of variety in my gaming. I consider it one of this genre's great strengths that it can house a wealth of wildly differing game styles and systems within the same zero-bullshit design framework.

Metal Black
-Almost knocked out Darius II's spot (the great struggle) but the lack of any feasible way of defending your backside (or anywhere not immediately in front of you) puts it out of the running.

That's a common misconception about MB which leads to fail and tears. Not to self-promote but read the Intro section of my ST for why the top, front and bottom of the ship are killing zones to be exploited. Unfortunately both of the 1CC replays are gone due to internet hosting issues, but trust me, you don't lack for defensive (or counter-offensive, rather) options in MB. It's not on my top 25 but definitely among my second-tier favourites for the nose-to-nose "brawling" feel its massive shot hitbox and swarms of tough enemies creates.

If something's directly behind you move out of its way and it'll be above, below or in front before long. You can actually kill stuff behind you too, the super beam's hitbox protrudes considerably beyond the ship's tail, but you should always be positioning the ship so that enemies are within the aforementioned killing envelope.

[Klatrymadon]

Metal Black
-Almost knocked out Darius II's spot (the great struggle) but the lack of any feasible way of defending your backside (or anywhere not immediately in front of you) puts it out of the running.

Your main shot protects a lot more of your ship than you might think, mate. Most things that come from behind can be easily dealt with by dropping down slightly and letting your shot's massive hit area take care of it.

(Check out BIL's strategy thread, BTW! It has good techniques for pretty much every section of the game.)

Edit: hahaha. Responded within a minute of each other! It's like the fucking Bat-Signal.

[BIL]

DOH! If I'd waited just a bit I wouldn't look like a self-plugging prat!

[EmperorIng]

I was actually reading your ST thread earlier today as I was considering whether or not Metal Black would make the cut, just in case. And though the beam does kill things directly above you and underneath, I'll take Darius' missile/wave combo for general protection any time.

It's definitely in my second-tier favorites and rightly gets an honorable mention from me, but I wish it had a few more options open to defense.

[Klatrymadon]

Hehe, plug away, man. You put a lot of work into that guide, and it's very thoroughgoing. Anybody who has any trouble with the game should be directed to it, as far as I'm concerned! (Especially if they're giving up on the game, complaining of unfairness or "randomness", etc.)

I've never made a list for this before, but I'm in the mood now. It's probably going to have far too much Taito stuff in it.

[BIL]

Technically I have only one Taito pick on my list (Rayforce), but they and their infernally persistent bendy lasers are represented by spiritual successors Border Down and Kamui!

I was playing E-SWAT on the MD recently and got to a boss that fires a pair of vertical lasers down either side of the player. Immediately I thought "surely they'll do something cool like bend 90 degrees Taito / Irem style!" but nope, damn things just went off the bottom of the screen. This genre can really spoil a gamer.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Dragon Breed was the only thing preventing me from adding Metal Black to my list. That, or maybe a few other guilty pleasures.
I don't actually have a standard set for myself other than 'bombs are unnecessary for the most part and button #2 should do something more interesting'. /hipster

[Kollision]

I believe I deserve scorn for even having Darius II on my ballot, but this love/hate relationship I have with this game is bizarre and intense and makes me do weird things (like play Darius II).

You deserve nothing but praise, at least for me, my friend.
I'm also a Darius II lover, count me in whenever you need help defending it against haters.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I should have discovered Batsugun Special Ver. sooner. It's so incredibly fun, especially once you're in the loops. It really feels like an improvement over the original, and it's even more fun than some of Cave's later offerings. Best Toaplan game I've played so far.

[LSU]

My rundown of votes per developer:

Cave : 4
Treasure : 3
Konami : 3
Raizing : 2
Psikyo : 2
G.rev : 2
Taito : 1
Toaplan : 1
Seibu Kaihatsu : 1
Alfa System : 1
Technosoft : 1
Compile : 1
Takumi : 1
Aicom : 1
SNK : 1

...Pretty mainstream I suppose. But I think there's often a reason why good games get well known.

[Klatrymadon]

I believe I deserve scorn for even having Darius II on my ballot, but this love/hate relationship I have with this game is bizarre and intense and makes me do weird things (like play Darius II).

You deserve nothing but praise, at least for me, my friend.
I'm also a Darius II lover, count me in whenever you need help defending it against haters.

You have my sword-arm, too. I recently spent more than I can afford on a version of the game whose soundtrack actually irritates and depresses me (Super Darius II), so I definitely understand your ambivalence.

[EmperorIng]

Darius II Lovers: the few, the proud[?], the utterly insane

[Nifty]

The background blurb and thread links are now updated, sorry that took a while.

[Nifty]

The first round of correctional PMs have now been sent. Time to settle in for the usual two weeks of next to no voting activity

[louisg]

Darius II Lovers: the few, the proud[?], the utterly insane

I wish I liked Darius 2 more than I do. The stages are really entertaining, but I'm not a fan of the feel or powerup system. I tried to like it- I even bought the Saturn version

[EmperorIng]

Darius II Lovers: the few, the proud[?], the utterly insane

I wish I liked Darius 2 more than I do. The stages are really entertaining, but I'm not a fan of the feel or powerup system. I tried to like it- I even bought the Saturn version

It would definitely be better if the Silver hawk was smaller, and didn't have such a punishing power-up system (basically the other two Darius's I listed: G-Darius and Darius Gaiden), but when you're doing well you really ride that high, and that's one of the reasons I enjoy playing it.

[Squire Grooktook]

I feel kinda bad because I'm thinking of putting R-Type Final on the list, but haven't played Delta enough (only played once very briefly I think) to honestly be able to vote for it.

Maybe it's just rose tinted glasses, but I loved some of the boss fights in Final, and the atmosphere was great, even though the music and level design in general wasn't as good as Delta or R-Type 3.

[Zaarock]

If it's the only R-Type game you're voting for it would be strange IMO, not that my opinion should matter. I'd say play more Delta/Leo/Pulstar

[Squire Grooktook]

It's not, R-Type 3 takes the lead for me. The original is on there too.