10th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[Hagane]

Sad to see I'm the only one voting for Sengoku Blade. Such an overlooked game.

Don't think it's overlooked so much as overshadowed by other (later) Psikyo games.

It's a better game than Strikers 1945 II and a purer Psikyo game, but most haven't actually played it enough.

[Obscura]

Sad to see I'm the only one voting for Sengoku Blade. Such an overlooked game.

Don't think it's overlooked so much as overshadowed by other (later) Psikyo games.

It's a better game than Strikers 1945 II and a purer Psikyo game, but most haven't actually played it enough.

I played it a bit, but I felt that the "you can't fire while charging and holding your charge shot" thing went against a game that's meant to be played so aggressively.

I prefer the charge shot method that S1999/Gunbird 2/Dragon Blaze used.

[Hagane]

I don't really understand what you mean, but if you think charge shots are too slow go for Aine.

[EmperorIng]

If you thought Sengoku Blade's charge was slow, wait till you play Gunbird.

[Rob]

It's a better game than Strikers 1945 II and a purer Psikyo game, but most haven't actually played it enough.

Can't abide. About the charging - indeed, waiting even a second in a Psikyo game feels way too long. The three-tier charge in later games also makes the ship differences stand out a lot more. Not asking for spirograph designs, but Blade's boss patterns are also a little plain.

[Kollision]

Well, one thing is certain, Sengoku Blade is probably the best Psikyo hori....

Even though I like the company, I didn't vote for any Psikyo.
I'm not really fond of shooters with such aggressive rank, even though I can adapt to them and crave some from time to time.

[Obscura]

I don't really understand what you mean, but if you think charge shots are too slow go for Aine.

Who is Aine? On the character select screen, I only have Miko, Tengai, Hagane, Sho, or Juni.

Juni is the one I've felt most comfortable with overall, since her charge shot gives pretty good coverage, but it's hard as hell to charge it up for a big enemy if there's popcorn around that needs killing. It's also annoying when I get caught in a "death spiral" where I can't get my power-ups back, because her bomb won't let me move.

[Jeneki]

Aine is the secret character.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=40721

To select Ayin, you must move the character select cursor to the random select box and then input the following code: UP x3, DOWN x3, UP x7

[CStarFlare]

I'm surprised at the number of people voting for Harmful Park. I thought I would be the only one.

[Hagane]

Can't abide. About the charging - indeed, waiting even a second in a Psikyo game feels way too long. The three-tier charge in later games also makes the ship differences stand out a lot more. Not asking for spirograph designs, but Blade's boss patterns are also a little plain.

Charge times are perfectly fine and suit each character. If you want a fast powerful charge shot, use Aine. If you want a fast charge shot for screen control, pick Koyori. If you want to take anything down in a certain spot at the cost of more charge time (which you can shorten by charging during the previous charge shot) you have Katana. And so on.

I disagree about there being more character differences on later games. Each shot, charge shot and bomb in SB is so vastly different, even with different power levels, and the strategies so wildly different among each character, that I feel there's more variety there than in most Psikyo games.

As for the patterns, they aren't ornate but they serve their purpose perfectly well. The rank management in SB is also something that makes it stand out from other games from that company, and it plays much more Psikyo like (aggressive) than Strikers II or Gunbird 2. Again, I feel this is a case of people not exploring the game enough. It has the burdens of being both a hori and a Psikyo game, pretty much a ticket to oblivion here.

Juni is the one I've felt most comfortable with overall, since her charge shot gives pretty good coverage, but it's hard as hell to charge it up for a big enemy if there's popcorn around that needs killing. It's also annoying when I get caught in a "death spiral" where I can't get my power-ups back, because her bomb won't let me move.

Save charge shots almost exclusively for big / medium enemies; don't waste them on popcorns (though with a little planning you can deploy Socrates at the entry point of popcorns to take waves with ease, useful at 1-5 for example). Junis is a hard character to use though; this is a game meant for aggressive play and she has low power overall.

I'd go with Aine or Katana if you are new to the game. Especially Aine since he has fast and powerful charge shots and a great bomb to speedkill bosses. Take a look at my guide if you want to get more familiar with the basics.

If you thought Sengoku Blade's charge was slow, wait till you play Gunbird.

Two words: Yuang Nang

[Mortificator]

Woah, BF has the second-best taste of everyone who voted so far.

Well, one thing is certain, Sengoku Blade is probably the best Psikyo hori....

Does Zero Gunner 2 with the chopper rotated sideways count?

[Ed Oscuro]

Whoa, Bloodreign voted for Fire Shark (Genesis). That's kind of funny because I was actually considering doing the same - I like the arcade version too but the Genesis version seems refined for easier playability.

Not even sure where to start this year. I will try to take a few lists (System11, Bloodreign, etc.), add in some favorites, and then start paring down. Looking at all the games listed thus far it's amazing how many good choices there are, which will make this somewhat painful if I do try to pare it down.

Certain appearances: A Raiden Fighters game, OutZone, Sengoku Blade.

[Rob]

it plays much more Psikyo like (aggressive) than Strikers II or Gunbird 2.

If you don't expand on this I will be confused forever.

[Hagane]

Emphasis on close ranged, aggressive play, mostly aimed bullets, powerful charge shots. Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1945 II stray from that usual Psikyo style by adding lots of static blazing fast patterns that usually there's no way to bypass and close ranged play is much weaker. The fast patterns in games like Dragon Blaze, Strikers 1999 or Sengoku Blade are usually a penalty for not killing dangerous enemies fast enough.

[azinth]

I don't really know where you're getting these ideas about Gunbird 2 from. Most of the patterns in the game are aimed in some way, and the patterns that are static can be avoided through simple safespotting or, uh, killing enemies/boss parts before they fire. Do you have any examples of patterns you have issues with?

Claiming that Gunbird 2 doesn't have much close-range gameplay doesn't make sense either; what I think you mean is that the forward shot is more important in GB2, as opposed to the other games you cited where the melee attack does most of the offensive work. This just means that you want to be point-blanking enemies as much as possible, both to do extra damage and to fill the charge bar up faster. You also have to spend a lot of time in the second loop close to enemies in order to misdirect/macrododge suicide bullets. There's plenty of aggressive play, it's just the way in which the game encourages you to be aggressive is different.

Anyway, Sengoku Blade is a nice game, but there are about 5 other Psikyo games I like more and I wanted to pretend like I was making a balanced list. Just disregard the fact that my list is completely devoid of horis

[Ed Oscuro]

if your list needs some horis then gigandes, GIGANDES PEOPLE

but Sengoku Blade works too

[blackoak]

This was fun, and I'm sure my list will be different in 2-3 years. There's whole areas of shmupdom I've never really spent time with: Raiden Fighters, various Cave, M-KAI's games, Touhou and other doujins, many older classics.

The only title I would proselytize from my list is Jamestown. I doubt it will even make it into the honorable mention section, because it doesn't really shine in single player. But if you happen to have 2-3 willing friends and a nice large display, its an incredibly unique and satisfying shmup experience. Its already converted several friends, who are now gently testing the water of arcade shmups too (and understanding their appeal on a non-credit feeding basis).

[Eaglet]

Looking forward to another year of Garegga on the top <3

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm surprised to not see R-Type Leo getting more love. I thought that game was better liked than that.

I think the really hardcore R-Type fans prefer the more 'pure' entries in the series. I thought it was a good game in its own right, but it doesn't do anything too unique other than the special buzzsaw attack. Good, yes, but best of all time, I dunno. I was tempted to vote for it; it's a solid game, but I'm not sure it stands out enough.

[Rob]

Emphasis on close ranged, aggressive play, mostly aimed bullets, powerful charge shots.

This seems like a fitting description of Gunbird 2, since all characters have the close range attack like Katana/Aine and it fills the screen with potential death if they're not used. To a degree where the regular charge shot is almost never possible to use/worth using. Almost too tilted in that direction for me. Point - GB2 seems the most Blade-ish of all Psikyo verts and you should definitely like it. Use Aine!

Anyway, Sengoku Blade is a nice game, but there are about 5 other Psikyo games I like more and I wanted to pretend like I was making a balanced list.

Me too. '45, '45 Plus, Blade get left on the bench.

[Hagane]

I don't really know where you're getting these ideas about Gunbird 2 from. Most of the patterns in the game are aimed in some way, and the patterns that are static can be avoided through simple safespotting or, uh, killing enemies/boss parts before they fire. Do you have any examples of patterns you have issues with?

Most bosses have patterns that are static and extremely fast, that you absolutely must dodge via safespotting and rote memorizing. I can understand why most people complain about Psikyo since GB2 and S1945 II are their most played games.

Claiming that Gunbird 2 doesn't have much close-range gameplay doesn't make sense either; what I think you mean is that the forward shot is more important in GB2, as opposed to the other games you cited where the melee attack does most of the offensive work. This just means that you want to be point-blanking enemies as much as possible, both to do extra damage and to fill the charge bar up faster. You also have to spend a lot of time in the second loop close to enemies in order to misdirect/macrododge suicide bullets. There's plenty of aggressive play, it's just the way in which the game encourages you to be aggressive is different.

Forward shot is more important because melee is vastly inferior. Even hard hitters such as Valpiro do nowhere near as much damage as previous hard hitters, and the need to use special bar for them is also another significant nerf. I'm not saying that there's no close ranged game in GB2 (at least it has more than Strikers 1945 II), but it's definitely much weaker than in older Psikyo games and of course Dragon Blaze. Also, fast killing is vital for extra points in Blade since at many spots you get extra enemies that are worth a lot. And to get them you need to use those charge shots or get really crazy with the point blanking, so that's another incentive for aggressiveness I don't see in GB2 (which also seems slower since boss timeouts are longer and drone milking is much more prevalent).

I don't think it's a bad game, but also feel it's not a pure Psikyo game and is in many ways closer to S1945 II.

GB2 seems the most Blade-ish of all Psikyo verts

That would be Dragon Blaze. Or maybe the first Gunbird. GB2 doesn't play much like Blade.

[To Far Away Times]

I'm surprised to not see R-Type Leo getting more love. I thought that game was better liked than that.

R-Type Leo's alright. Good, solid, but not spectacular. The stage 1 theme is super awesome though.

[Rob]

That would be Dragon Blaze. Or maybe the first Gunbird. GB2 doesn't play much like Blade.

Maybe you've just played a bunch of Sengoku Blade and not the others? DB has way too many fancy trinkets to link it to SB without first stopping at GB2. The changes they made were gradual.

[Hagane]

I'm speaking about the play style and nature of the game. Of course DB has more stuff.

[Ed Oscuro]

Semicom #1 in 2013! Baryon: Future Assault sweeps all awards categories.

"Dragon Blaze: Fancy Trinkets" heh, I like that description.

[Herr Schatten]

I counted the games per developer in my vote. I'm pretty happy with the diversity.

(4) Konami
(3) Cave
(3) Psikyo
(2) Compile
(2) Irem
(1) Activision
(1) Advantec
(1) Alfa System
(1) Kaiko
(1) Locomalito
(1) Milestone
(1) Raizing
(1) Sega
(1) Taito
(1) Triangle Service
(1) Video System

[jugemscloud]

i'd like to throw out some ideas for stuff that doesnt seem to get much love, and a couple of gameplay variations on the classic scroller style-

strikeforce (defender 3) - lovely graphical update on the classic, plays just as smooth and fast with some nice gameplay additions also, never really liked the original but this has me hooked

vulgus - capcom hit the nail on the head with this straight out the gate, their first released game - well balanced and paced, its all down to skill in the end with this one, also a nod for random enemy placement rather than scripted hordes

robotron 2084 - the original manic shooter, why does it not even get an honourable mention? williams should at least as a developer

bangai-o (n64 version is my preference) - a more free form version of robotron, mixed with maze style shooting and movement puzzles (would love to see some devlopment on that idea - and i dont mean development of polarity shmups)

sin and punishment (n64) - just about everything in its perfect - gameplay, graphics, story, scoring mechanics, the complete package

[Nifty]

i'd like to throw in some votes for some stuff that doesnt seem to get much love, and a couple of gameplay variations on the classic scroller style-

Great! Hop on over to the voting thread, then, but be aware that Sin & Punishment doesn't count as a shmup.

[jugemscloud]

realised that after i posted, going to think about an full list before i post one. it was meant as points of discussion and should have phrased it as such (edited it).

how come s+p isn't considered a shmup? to me there is no real differentiation from that to something like gradius or 1942 - the majority of the game on rails (constant movement of character or background around them), can be 1cc'd, designed around the shooting mechanics of your character, has a credit system instead of lives, mid and/or end bosses to each stage. the only real differenciation would be that you have the ability to jump and i can see the similarity with something like the metal slug series but in my mind that is a large factor in the game play of that series that i would define as action platformers due to this, the jumping in s+p is used only to avoid static scenery and attacks much the same as the ability to barrel roll or loop would be in a typical shmup.

[Nifty]

It appears to me to fall under the heading of gallery/cabal shooter, which are considered too far separated to be eligible. So are 'proper' rail shooters. I would say it has more in common with a third-person shooter than a classic shmup.