RQ: Explanation of Rank system in DOJ

[MmSadda]

I've heard several times that DOJ has a rank system, which surprised me, as I thought that was really only characteristic of Yagawa's games.

How does rank in DOJ work? Is it similar to a Yagawa rank system?


And, probably a dumb question, but what other Cave games (excluding Yagawa titles) have a similar rank system?

[BulletMagnet]

According to the first post of this thread rank goes up when you Hyper and goes down when you bomb/die, but I seem to remember there being a bit more to it than that (i.e. there are technically two kinds of rank, one for bullet speed and another for density, something like that). You might want to read a bit farther into that thread.

And, probably a dumb question, but what other Cave games (excluding Yagawa titles) have a similar rank system?

I couldn't give you a precise list, but quite a few Cave titles have some manner of rank in them, though it doesn't tend to affect how things play out quite as much as in a Yagawa production or the like: the Mushi titles definitely have something like that going on (though I think survival and scoring are the main factors), as bullets get a good deal faster later in Original mode. The first DonPachi also had something, though you'd have to check the ST for that to get specifics...DoDonPachi I've heard different things about, but the general consensus seems to be that whatever rank might exist isn't much worth worrying about.

[MmSadda]

Thanks for the reply! Right off the bat, it seems that kinda confirms what I'd suspected - that there's no real "sliding-scale" of difficulty, at least not that's worth worrying about as much as in a Yagawa title.

Edit - that guide is fantastic for scoring, as well! I'd actually looked for a DOJ GD thread on here, and somehow my search didn't turn up that one. Thank you!

[Plasmo]

I've heard several times that DOJ has a rank system, which surprised me, as I thought that was really only characteristic of Yagawa's games.

Huh? You will have a hard time finding CAVE games without a rank system. Nearly all of them do have rank. And so do shmups from other developers as well. No rank is rather the exception than the rule.

[chempop]

Most shmups have rank. n00b

Though it does raise an interesting question: Are there any prominent developers which never have a rank system?

[Plasmo]

I'm not too sure, but Milestone maybe?

I can't call Treasure a prominent developer for shmups, but both RSG and Ikaruga don't have rank.

[KAI]

Milestone games don't have rank.

[Mortificator]

Rank is very slight in the typical Irem game.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Though it does raise an interesting question: Are there any prominent developers which never have a rank system?

Touhou games (as least the Windows era games) technically have rank in them, but it's never really problematic enough to make you worry about rank control like suiciding, so you can effectively not worry about it.

Cave has a few games with no rank from what I've seen: Mushi Futari's Maniac and Ultra/God are said not to have any rank systems, Deathsmiles doesn't have any mid-stage rank increases for powering up a lot or anything, Espgaluda doesn't have a rank system (not counting Overmode status) or, if it does, it's so minimal as to have no impact.

Do Takumi shmups have rank? I've never noticed any rank system in Giga Wing that affects bullet speed/density (aside from the first three stages changing slightly depending on which character you use so that it's always easiest -> hardest).

[BulletMagnet]

Do Takumi shmups have rank? I've never noticed any rank system in Giga Wing that affects bullet speed/density (aside from the first three stages changing slightly depending on which character you use so that it's always easiest -> hardest).

According to Rando's ST's there is a bit of rank in the first GW and Generations, though Rob doesn't mention any in his ST for the sequel. Technically there's something going on in Mars Matrix too, but it's hardly worth noting.

Also, Galuda does have rank beyond Overmode.

[Plasmo]

Just throwing in Ketsui for another CAVE game with no rank.

[Obscura]

Ketsui actually does have rank, at least according to Trap15, although it barely does anything.

As for DOJ's rank, as I understand it:
There's two types of rank- hyper rank and normal rank. Normal rank controls bullet density, hyper rank controls bullet speed. Normal rank works roughly like you'd expect; it goes up some amount constantly as long as you're not dying; dying and bombing reduces it. Hyper ranks is a bit different; when you pop a hyper, both normal and hyper rank increase a fairly large amount, but at the end of the hyper, normal rank goes back down to where it was before the hyper started; however, hyper rank only goes partially back down. The more hypers you pop at once, the more pronounced both the normal rank increase while in the hyper, and the temporary and permanent hyper rank increase.

[Plasmo]

trap15 is wrong then.

Where did he mention it?

[Erppo]

Ketsui does have rank in a technical sense but not in any meaningful gameplay sense. The only way to lower it is to have less than full power which is obviously never practical. Normally it just keeps rising and maxes out early in 1-5. Also it's completely fixed in the loops.

[MmSadda]

I suppose I worded my question poorly; what I meant was more along the lines of "Does any Cave game (excluding games by Yagawa) have a sliding-scale rank system, wherein rank can be raised and lowered on the fly by the player's actions?"

Thanks for the info, guys!

[trap15]

I know Ketsui's is raised and lowered by your current power level, though it's not all that apparent nor effective for real "rank control". Espgaluda (1 and 2) is probably the closest, with the "overdrive level", which has a fairly significant effect on rank, and is player controllable.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Espgaluda (1 and 2) is probably the closest, with the "overdrive level", which has a fairly significant effect on rank, and is player controllable.

I used to think this too, but after doing many runs at both minimum and maxed out overmode, I can safely say that any rank that exists has a negligible (if not outright nonexistent) effect on gameplay in the first game. Enemy patterns, bullet speeds and bullet density all stay pretty much the same from what I can tell. The real danger from overmode rank comes the higher risk of a bullet hitting you if you accidentally go into overmode when unintended, a problem that's easily fixed with practice by learning to switch out of kakusei before that happens.

I'm pretty sure this applies to the second game as well, I've not noticed any real changes in difficulty from maxing out overmode (if anything it's easier as you have more kakusei to work with).

[MmSadda]

I could be mistaken, but my understanding of 'leveling up' the rank in a Galuda game was just that the gems lasted longer/depleted slower while in kakusei mode, at least in the first one.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Levelling up Overmode:

1) increases bullet speeds when you're in overmode (pretty obvious)
2) increases your per-frame point increase when you're in overmode (minor effect but still)
3) increases the amount of gold each enemy drops when killed while in overmode (minor, helpful for scoring in some instances)
4) increases the number of green gems you get from destroying enemies while in normal mode (as in not in kakusei), this is the big reason to max out overmode as it's crucial for scoring and survival to have as much kakusei time as possible

Gems deplete at the same rate over time and per enemy destroyed, regardless of overmode rank. Applies to both games, although I'm not as familiar with Esp II, but from what I've played I'm fairly confident this is true for both games.