Annual Top 25 Pre-Discussion Thread (?)

[Nifty]

There's been a lot of blabbing in the other thread, but very little doing, so in the complete absence of interest I'm going to take a crack at running it myself now that I've gotten a go-ahead. As this is new territory, and I have a couple of things I'd like to take the opportunity to improve, it may prove fruitful (or at least necessary) to have some open discussion first regarding what's going to change. It's been quite a while, after all. I'll start with the most contentious topic:

Vote Limit Per Developer
At first I was skeptical of how much difference this suggestion would make without unfairly limiting developers with larger libraries or that display more variety, when the main reasoning behind it is to dampen the dominance of only one (which I'm all for, but I want to keep things realistic too). To perhaps quantify the weight of this argument, I went through 2011's voting list and tallied up the number of ballots that contained more than 5 Cave games. What I came up with is somehow worse than what I'd anticipated:

Code: Select all

6 games: x5
7 games: x4
8 games: x8
9 games: x3
10 games: x8
11 games: x1
12 games: x5
13 games: x3
14 games: x3
16 games: x2
19 games: x1

Based on this, the developer limit could be set as generously high as 10 and still help improve the overall variety. With that much room for leniency, I now think this idea might be worth trying after all.

Vote Weight Limit
Some years ago, the maximum voting value was lowered to 25, effectively halving the scoring weight (explanation here) that could be given to a single game. While this was an improvement, it only takes a cursory glance at the "Score" column to realise that 0.5 is still a pretty enormous amount for one vote to give. Following the balancing theme above, I intend to halve that again. To put this in simple terms, it will mean that a ballot must add up to at least four times the value of the highest number present - so on a list starting with a [25], that will round nicely out to 100. I see no legitimate downside to doing this.

Viable Games List
The necessary part. In traditional fashion, the list will be limited to releases up to the end of last year, if that's even an issue yet. Any help categorising the swathe of iWhatever ports and oddball Cave releases since the previous list will be very much appreciated.


If I have one thing I want to take this opportunity to achieve, it's to make the 10th top 25 list the best that I can manage; I would've preferred to have been a little better-known before attempting this but hey, you take what you can get. Based on the level of discussion generated here, I'll probably create the voting thread in a few days.

[Paradigm]

To impose a voting restriction is to make this exercise utterly pointless, since it would no longer accurately reflect the view of the forum as a whole.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm almost tempted to say that if we're going to go down that route we ought to do two separate votes, a "limited" one and an "unlimited" one for comparison's sake, though you probably want to strangle me right now for even bringing it up, heh.

[Hagane]

Don't put developer limits. If people are close minded let them be.

[chum]

First of all: props for stepping up and running this.

About the max 10 games per developer rule. If people really want to put every Cave game ever made on their list, let them.

[HenAi]

Do you want to get an accurate ranking or do you want to have some fancy looking list to publish... I dunno, elsewhere? Your idea is great for the latter, but abysmal for the former.

[Herr Schatten]

First of all: props for stepping up and running this.

This.

Don't put developer limits. If people are close minded let them be.

And this, too.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Let people put what they want. Isn't the point of this to reflect the community as a whole? Do we want this to become like changing F1's points system because Michael Schumacher wins too many races?

Cave have had a steady output in recent years - the only developer to do so. Their prominence in lists like this reflect that as well as older games considered classics.

No limits. Let people put what they want, as long as the game qualifies as a shmup.

[nimitz]

Don't put developer limits. If people are close minded let them be.

[CDexWard]

I will put 25 cave games on my list!

[Rob]

I wish there were 19 Psikyo games. What an unjust, disgusting world.

[To Far Away Times]

If there's a developer limit then the goal of this discussion isn't really about finding each poster's top 25 games, is it?

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Was strongly considering begging a mod to start this up, so you have my sincerest gratitude for making the move OP.

Still don't understand how this rule is anymore restrictive than the 40 game rule, but I really don't care if it's approved or not. Just a suggestion I thought some folks might like considering the repetition made the top 25 almost entirely forgotten about.

Honestly pretty curious to see if ESPGaluda will still make this year's list or not.

[BulletMagnet]

I wish there were 19 Psikyo games. What an unjust, disgusting world.

How many Taisen Hot Gimmicks are there? We might still have a shot!

[Nifty]

Okay that's a pretty definite response. No developer limit it is, then. Maybe next year

Anything else?

[Rob]

If there's a developer limit then the goal of this discussion isn't really about finding each poster's top 25 games, is it?

All Cave games are the same game with different artwork, so in fact would be closer to the goal.

[To Far Away Times]

Wanted to say thanks for doing this.

I think this poll should be fun, first and foremost, but here are some questions to consider that I think might improve this year's vote:

How will combining games work? Looking at 2010's list, combining DOJ WL/BL makes a lot of sense as BL contains WL on the same board. But some games like Batsugun and Batsugun Special contain quite a few differences from each other, but are still combined. Then you have games like Mushi Futari and Mushi Futari Black Label, and DDP DFK 1.5 and DDP DKF BL that aren't combined. I'm not sure if I like a case by case basis for combining games as I feel that can be a bit too subjective. I don't have much preference if all altered versions are combined, or if none are, but I would like to see some sort of decision one way or the other.

Also, where do iOS ports of games with faster movement options fall into all of this? Are they counted as the same game or different? Looking back at 2010's list, DFK 1.5 iOS was combined with Arcade and 360, while the iOS versions of Deathsmiles and Espgaluda II were not .

[Nifty]

How will combining games work? Looking at 2010's list, combining DOJ WL/BL makes a lot of sense as BL contains WL on the same board. But some games like Batsugun and Batsugun Special contain quite a few differences from each other, but are still combined. Then you have games like Mushi Futari and Mushi Futari Black Label, and DDP DFK 1.5 and DDP DKF BL that aren't combined. I'm not sure if I like a case by case basis for combining games as I feel that can be a bit too subjective. I don't have much preference if all altered versions are combined, or if none are, but I would like to see some sort of decision one way or the other.

At this point I'm happy to stick with the current groupings, based on what I know of individual preferences. For example, I can't imagine there being a great deal of preference one way or another over Batsugun's versions, but DFK's are often polarising. If anything I'm a little more skeptical of some of those old console ports being separated from their respective arcade counterparts.

Also, where do iOS ports of games with faster movement options fall into all of this? Are they counted as the same game or different? Looking back at 2010's list, DFK 1.5 iOS was combined with Arcade and 360, while the iOS versions of Deathsmiles and Espgaluda II were not .

I could use some help with this myself, I know almost nothing about them.

Worst case scenario with any of this is that I wait and check votes of different versions as they come in and make a call then. Even then it's only an immediate issue if two appear on the same ballot :U

[To Far Away Times]

How will combining games work? Looking at 2010's list, combining DOJ WL/BL makes a lot of sense as BL contains WL on the same board. But some games like Batsugun and Batsugun Special contain quite a few differences from each other, but are still combined. Then you have games like Mushi Futari and Mushi Futari Black Label, and DDP DFK 1.5 and DDP DKF BL that aren't combined. I'm not sure if I like a case by case basis for combining games as I feel that can be a bit too subjective. I don't have much preference if all altered versions are combined, or if none are, but I would like to see some sort of decision one way or the other.

At this point I'm happy to stick with the current groupings, based on what I know of individual preferences. For example, I can't imagine there being a great deal of preference one way or another over Batsugun's versions, but DFK's are often polarising. If anything I'm a little more skeptical of some of those old console ports being separated from their respective arcade counterparts.

I found Batsugun Special much easier than the regular version, with the shield and lower base difficulty (at least the first loop, anyway). As a personal prefrence, I prefer the original . But I think the fact that we disagree somewhat in how similar Batsugun and Batsugun Special are indicates that combining those two games, but not other revisions of other games, adds an element of subjectivity to the final total before the vote begins.

Again, it's just something to think about, and I think you could make a great poll keeping the rules the same, I just see it as a chance for improvement.

As far as console ports of arcade games, that one is tough. Some games are nearly identical, and others feature unique levels and are totally different. Gradius III Arcade and Gradius III SNES aren't really the same game, but I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about older console ports of shmups.

Also, where do iOS ports of games with faster movement options fall into all of this? Are they counted as the same game or different? Looking back at 2010's list, DFK 1.5 iOS was combined with Arcade and 360, while the iOS versions of Deathsmiles and Espgaluda II were not .

I could use some help with this myself, I know almost nothing about them.

Worst case scenario with any of this is that I wait and check votes of different versions as they come in and make a call then. Even then it's only an immediate issue if two appear on the same ballot :U

The iOS games default to easier bullet patterns, although the original bullet paterns are available via harder difficulties. Additionally, you can move your ship/character as fast as you can swipe your finger, allowing you to dodge some bullet patterns in different ways than what was possible in the arcade/console releases. Otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, they are identical.

[Skykid]

Also, where do iOS ports of games with faster movement options fall into all of this?

I don't think IOS ports should fall into this whatsoever. Leave the forum with some modicum of respectability, please folks.

[Nifty]

But I think the fact that we disagree somewhat in how similar Batsugun and Batsugun Special are indicates that combining those two games, but not other revisions of other games, adds an element of subjectivity to the final total before the vote begins.

At the other end of the spectrum, the end result of a split should be considered as well. I'd like to avoid as much duplication as is reasonable, otherwise games end up in positions below those that accurately reflect their popularity and can steal votes from other games, all over marginal differences. As there's going to be subjectivity involved regardless, wouldn't treating versions on a case-by-case basis be the most thorough approach?

[BulletMagnet]

All Cave games are the same game with different artwork

...

...nah, too easy.

[nimitz]

Regarding splitting votes between ports/versions of the same game.

I always saw this as a very bad idea. All it does is give some artificial handicap to games that might have not so similar versions/ports.

Gradius III is often used as an example of how different versions can be. Well, guess what, playing Gradius III arcade will improve your Gradius III snes skills and vice-versa and as far as visuals/audio go the games are pretty much the same. The main difference is that one is brutally hard and the other very easy, but surely a difficulty setting shouldn't warrant another entry. Also, lets not forget that Gradius III snes would have been a totally different game if it wasn't based on the arcade version.

Now some people might say that they do not want to vote for Gradius III (all versions) since that would be giving credit to a version they might not consider worthy of their top 25. Well, I'd argue what you get in return is worth it, that is the version you like will still be represented in the poll and it will fare better since it will not have the handicap of having split votes. Now lets suppose that thanks to that Gradius III ends up #1 shmup of all time, the *only* thing a potential player has to do is read a bit about the game and realize that the snes and arcade versions play somewhat differently and then try both to see which one is more enjoyable to him.

So I say let people vote for Game X (system y), but combine the votes in the results to Game X (all versions) so that the games are not score penalized.

There might be some exceptions where some version really is a totally different game with different graphics/music/scoring system/bosses/stages etc... But I cannot think of any right now.

[louisg]

Maybe instead of splitting votes based on ports, we could count all contributions equally and note next to the game which port (or two if there are a lot) are considered the preferred versions.

I'm a little torn on the publisher limits. But I could also argue that not being able to think of enough games by different companies is not very different from not being able to find 25 shooters that you like-- both connote a lack of experience.

It'd also be interesting (and useful!) to break the data down. We can have a top 25, but then also maybe as a side list a top 20 made-for-console shooters, a top 20 80s shooters, etc (or top 10). Then when people come in asking, "Hey, I like games from this or that era, or of this style", we can point them to it.

[KAI]

All Psikyo games are the same game with different artwork

Fixed.

[100] [Pinksweets]

[Jeneki]

All Touhou games are the same game with same artwork

*runs*

[Naut]

All shooting games are the same game with same artwork

xD m i doin it rite? xDxDd

[Herr Schatten]

There might be some exceptions where some version really is a totally different game with different graphics/music/scoring system/bosses/stages etc... But I cannot think of any right now.

Katakis (Amiga vs. C64). Not that either of them is likely to get anywhere near the top 25.
Undeadline might qualify, too.

Except for those I can't think of more good examples offhand, so, yeah, I'm all for lumping ports and different versions.

[k39bk]

Maybe instead of splitting votes based on ports, we could count all contributions equally and note next to the game which port (or two if there are a lot) are considered the preferred versions.

I'm a little torn on the publisher limits. But I could also argue that not being able to think of enough games by different companies is not very different from not being able to find 25 shooters that you like-- both connote a lack of experience.

It'd also be interesting (and useful!) to break the data down. We can have a top 25, but then also maybe as a side list a top 20 made-for-console shooters, a top 20 80s shooters, etc (or top 10). Then when people come in asking, "Hey, I like games from this or that era, or of this style", we can point them to it.

I support this. Splitting votes between versions is like treating the same game (somewhat same) as completely two/multiple different games. As nimitz said in his reference Overall Gradius 3 is an excellent game but it shouldn't suffer for it's Arcade counterpart, same goes for many other games. Preferred ver. may be mentioned next to the game.

& listing top 20 or 10 separately for console, 80's, traditional, modern etc. should also be considered.

[CStarFlare]

Wanted to say thanks for doing this.

I think this poll should be fun, first and foremost, but here are some questions to consider that I think might improve this year's vote:

How will combining games work? Looking at 2010's list, combining DOJ WL/BL makes a lot of sense as BL contains WL on the same board. But some games like Batsugun and Batsugun Special contain quite a few differences from each other, but are still combined. Then you have games like Mushi Futari and Mushi Futari Black Label, and DDP DFK 1.5 and DDP DKF BL that aren't combined. I'm not sure if I like a case by case basis for combining games as I feel that can be a bit too subjective. I don't have much preference if all altered versions are combined, or if none are, but I would like to see some sort of decision one way or the other.

Also, where do iOS ports of games with faster movement options fall into all of this? Are they counted as the same game or different? Looking back at 2010's list, DFK 1.5 iOS was combined with Arcade and 360, while the iOS versions of Deathsmiles and Espgaluda II were not .

Let people vote for a certain version to be counted separately (Gradius III SNES for example), and if no version is specified it should be counted as a vote for the primary release. This allows people to show the love for their favorite version if necessary, without giving a less-beloved primary title a vote the user would not otherwise give.

I suspect this will be a non-issue - most people around here likely prefer the original and its significantly similar ports, so unique versions are unlikely to compete for a spot in the top 25.