Can't get into Bullet Hell... Advice.

[Squire Grooktook]

Mars Matrix feels a lot like a classic shmup to me. You have to use a lot of strategy in dealing with the super fast moving bullets, and not a lot of weaving. You can also approach levels in a variety of different ways. Also the way you can just trash bosses in under 30 seconds without having to waste a finite supply of bombs kind of reminds me of classic shmup speed kills.

[Formless God]

hollow level design

The levels are mostly designed for scoring, not survival. Environmental hazards and puzzles are toned down in favor of enemy placement. If you can chain it, it is not hollow.

I always have to concentrate on my ship/lolis & its invisible hitbox, no time to even appritiate enenmy design!!

How is this a bad thing? If a game is successful in directing your attention away from such secondary things, then it is certainly well-designed.

May be I would have enjoyed it more with proper hand to eye coordination over my hitbox instead of running into bullets & praying it misses my invisible hitbox 50% of the time

This only happens when you have absolutely no idea of what you are doing. Did you actually take the time to get used to the hitbox's size and position AND your ship's speed(s)? Do you normally dive headfirst into traditional shooters without doing similar preparations? Do you think the big plays revolve solely around that 50% and not 'proper hand-to-eye coordination'?

it doesn't always force you to squeeze between bullets
the entire game doesn't revolve around that mechanics

None of the bullet hell games you listed "always forces you to squeeze between bullets" or "revolves around 'that mechanics'". Such attacks make up 1/4 of the games at most on regular difficulties. Even then, micro dodging is a skill you absolutely need to acquire and if you refuse to do so, the subgenre is not for you I'm afraid.

[k39bk]

Ok, so I should be looking for forward to -

1. Mars Matrix.
2. Giga Wing 1.
3. Later Toplan Games. (I have played Dogyuun thouh, it was a blast)
4. Dragon Blaze.
5. Dangun Feveron. (Which I am already playing am having a quality time. Why didn't CAVE produce more games like this?!)

& I am looking backward to Soukyugurentai . @lousig Thanks for mentioning this one.

Hey man, I feel you. While I appreciated the better bullet hell shooters, I could never really call myself a fan of them compared to more traditional shmups. However I changed my mind recently, so I'm a just ramble on about some of the things you mentioned.

The thing is, that just like traditional shmups, the manic shooter subgenre has just as much to offer in variety. It really all comes down to level design, and games in the sub-genre can distinguish themselves quite well based on this. I mean you got your slow moving bullets in fancy patterns-type games. You got your super fast aimed bullets-type games. Mixes of the two, etc.

Also as for hollow level design, I know it's easy to miss those devious mazes and environmental hazards from a game like Gradius or R-Type, but if you really get dedicated to a particular manic shooter, I think you'll find the level design can be just as devious and carefully designed.

The pixel sized hitbox was another thing I changed my mind about also. At first I thought it was less visceral, but really being visceral is more about how the levels are designed more then anything. IMO the strength of the pixel sized hitbox is it's clarity. You don't need to guess where it is in your ship, it's always in the center. You don't need to stop to think if you can squeeze in through a tight space, if you can see a gap you can do it (in theory).

All in all, all (good) video games are built on a trinity of reflexes, strategy, and execution. Bullet Hell shooters are no exception.

Thanks for explaining your point of view elaborately.

[To Far Away Times]

I started out the other way, playing bullet hells and eventually trying out manics. I started with Touhou and eventually Cave and it took me about a year to venture outside of that. But now the Thunderforce and R-Type series are some of my favorites.

That's good to know. I grew up with Thunderforce, and sometimes it's hard to separate out nostalgia from actual quality. Did Thunderforce III present a challenge for you when you first started playing it, or are you more a fan of the atmosphere and vibe of the game?

The Thunderforce series is all about the vibe, atmosphere, music, and pacing for me. I did have to adjust to losing your powerups when you die, and that was probably the hardest part. The actual dodging was pretty straightforward. Thunderforce III is a game that feels harder than it really is. It's fast paced, and you have to be on your toes, but it's not that hard.

R-Type was a revelation for me. I didn't think much of shooters from the 80's. I've never been a big fan of Gradius, and I assumed I wouldn't like R-Type, but I couldn't have been more wrong about that game. It hooked me right from the start, and I absolutely loved the level design. Everything is so well thought out, it has a different feel than all other shmups. Even the R-Type clones (some of which I like quite a bit as well), have never been able to match it's level design. It 's very easily a Top 10 game of the 80's.

Don't worry about nostalgia. Good games are forever good. Time has a tendency to weed out the bad ones.

[zabu]

I'd say get into the original DoDonPachi. IMO it's an extremely well-balanced and thought out game, and it's entirely possible to first loop it with two or three extends without getting too much into chaining. Google "DDP hitbox" to learn exactly about where not to get hit.
It might be worth checking out some of the later TOAPLAN games like Truxton 2, V-V and Batsugun that are approaching "bullet-hell" mechanics. They're sort of a development up towards what would become the "bullet hell standard" DDP.

[Mortificator]

Are Psikyo games generally considered bullet hell games? I always thought they'd be considered to be more Raiden like, with a lot of fast sniping bullets, at least later on. Then again I guess they do have some fairly dense patterns.

They are somewhere in between. There are not fast snipers in general in Psikyo. Fast bullets are shot by medium-large enemies and they don't appear from the sides or behind. In older Psikyo games popcorns can fill the screen with bullets if you don't keep them in check, and large enemies fire fast, often static patterns to back them up. If you let those large enemies live for too long things will get out of control fast because there will be too many bullets to dodge. So the challenge generally lies in staying on the offensive avoiding the popcorn to get those fast kills.

Strkers 1945 II is kind of an exception. That one is more Raiden like, with little incentive to get in close. But still bullet count is high especially on the bosses.

In every game they released they kept going up in the bullet count, and I think no one could say that something like Dragon Blaze or S1999 isn't a bullet hell shooter.

A shooter has to have lots of bullets to create danmaku, but just having lots of bullets doesn't mean there's danmaku. Gradius V can have more shots on screen than Dodonpachi, but Dodonpachi definitely has danmaku while Gradius V definitely doesn't. Danmaku's about enemies firing elaborate patterns that the player dodges through, not around. Although Psikyo upped the bullet count as time passed, they generally didn't use those bullets for danmaku.

So I think there are a few distinct styles of shooter being talked about here:
* Toaplan / Raiden style
* Video System / Psikyo style
* Cave-style danmaku

the manic shooter subgenre

"Manic" isn't a style. Everywhere else on the internet, it's a synonym for danmaku. On this forum, I've seen it used for Psikyo games, and Seibu games, and Raizing games, but what element do they share that isn't common to a ton of verts? I wouldn't even put the Yagawa and Sotoyama Raizing games in the same style.

[EmperorIng]

I thought "manic" referred to older-style Toaplan aimed-shot games, and "danmaku" being anything descended from Batsugun/DoDonPachi bullet-spread games.

But there comes a point where arguing shmup definitions is an exercise in futility!

By Dragon Blaze, I think you can see Psikyo experiment with some "danmaku"-esque patterns on the bosses; it's almost like they were testing the waters outside of their own distinctive style of bullet patterns. Still one of Psikyo's best, in my opinion.

[Squire Grooktook]

Thanks for explaining your point of view elaborately.

No problem. I'm sorry if my post was rambling or unfocused. What I'm trying to say is keep an open mind, it's all about the excitement of playing, so if you can get into a well designed game you can enjoy it regardless of what kind of shmup it is.

There are some unique strengths and weaknesses to the genre, but really the things that make shmups fun are often universal.

"Manic" isn't a style. Everywhere else on the internet, it's a synonym for danmaku. On this forum, I've seen it used for Psikyo games, and Seibu games, and Raizing games, but what element do they share that isn't common to a ton of verts? I wouldn't even put the Yagawa and Sotoyama Raizing games in the same style.

I thought "manic" referred to older-style Toaplan aimed-shot games, and "danmaku" being anything descended from Batsugun/DoDonPachi bullet-spread games.

But there comes a point where arguing shmup definitions is an exercise in futility!

Eh, for games of the "pixel sized hitbox, emphasis on lots and lots of bullets" sub-genre I don't really like the term "danmaku". It just sounds stupid imo, and it comes from Touhou (I think?) which didn't invent the sub-genre. I know a lot of people use it, I just personally prefer to avoid the term when I can. (Note I have nothing against Touhou, I like the series, I just don't like that term lol.)

I don't like calling the sub-genre bullet hell either, because I once got into a HUGE argument with someone over whether any shmup can be a "bullet hell shmup" if it has a few more chaotic elements or areas (he was trying to argue that Einhander was bullet hell because of some denser bullet clusters on hard mode, and some of the later boss attacks. At first I thought he was absolutely insane, but then later a friend of mine who is very knowledgeable about the genre agreed with him).

I prefer to just define bullet hell as a phenomenon that can occur in any shmup, and manic shooter as the sub-genre of games with pixel (ish) sized hitboxes that specialize entirely in bullet hell type attacks.

And yeah I agree, I'm aware of how loose and arguable these definitions are. I don't wanna start an internet war here so just take my humble opinions with a grain of salt (of course, if I'm outright objectively wrong about anything, correcting me would be appreciated).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Cho Ren Sha 68k for the PC also has that kind of faster, less dense patterns. A little unpolished at spots [the background never changes, you can gain a crazy amount of extra lives], but still really good, has a proto-bullet hell quality to it, so it still has a bunch of older enemy pattern elements to it.

Awesome game. You have to play it in compatibility mode to fix the stuttering sound though, and the lack of autofire is really unfortunate... you pretty much have to setup autofire via Joy2Key, because unlike something like Giga Wing, you have to tap really fast to fire at the max rate.

[Hagane]

Danmaku's about enemies firing elaborate patterns that the player dodges through, not around. Although Psikyo upped the bullet count as time passed, they generally didn't use those bullets for danmaku.

You dodge around clusters of bullets instead of going through them most of the time in Cave games, and Psikyo is no different. And if you play games like Gunbird 2, Strikers 1999 or Dragon Blaze, you'll see plenty of elaborate (and often ornate in boss battles) patterns.

By Dragon Blaze, I think you can see Psikyo experiment with some "danmaku"-esque patterns on the bosses; it's almost like they were testing the waters outside of their own distinctive style of bullet patterns. Still one of Psikyo's best, in my opinion.

They were experimenting with Danmaku since Sengoku Blade, by Dragon Blaze they were fully in that style.

[Mortificator]

You're seriously telling us that Psikyo is no different than Cave?

Grooktook, though, your reasoning's good! I just wanted to quote one of the people saying "manic" in this thread to lead into the problem with that term. You use manic to mean...

the sub-genre of games with pixel (ish) sized hitboxes that specialize entirely in bullet hell type attacks.

OK, but then we have the meaning that EmperorIng and To Far Away Times used...

I thought "manic" referred to older-style Toaplan aimed-shot games, and "danmaku" being anything descended from Batsugun/DoDonPachi bullet-spread games.

... and a third meaning with...

The only bullet hell game that felt manic to me (when I read "manic", I think Raiden Fighters).

With at least three definitions of "manic" floating around, two of which are total opposites of each other, the word is meaningless. If someone told me "there's a new manic vert on XBLA," he might as well have left manic out.

[Hagane]

You said Psikyo was not danmaku because danmaku is about enemies firing elaborate patterns (which Psikyo has, especially in their later games), and that in a danmaku you must go through bullet patterns instead of dodging the group, which is not true most of the time in Cave games. So no, I'm not saying they are the same as Cave games, I'm saying that games like S1999, GB2 and Dragon Blaze are definitely danmaku, and the company was transitioning to that style several games before those.

Maybe playing them will help you see my point?

[Kollision]

Psikyo... danmaku?
Yeah, definitions suck.

But when you get fucked by all those crazy-fast bullet spreads in the final stages of a Psikyo..... it's hard to think of them as "danmaku" - as per the most common definition, that one associated with bullet hell

I'd say Psikyo is instead bullet speed-fuck
if you don't know what's coming you're more toast than in an actual danmaku

[KAI]

Danmaku.
Military Terminology, spread fire in every direction to keep the enemy away.
Watch Gundam.

[Hagane]

Crazy fast bullet speeds are a problem only when you let the big enemies that shoot them live for too long. That's why you have those close ranged attacks and charge shots. Ketsui has bullet patterns that can get as fast as any Psikyo shooter and you are forced to dodge them, but no one would say Ketsui isn't a danmaku.

But I could understand why you could think that way if the only Psikyo game you've ever played is Strikers 1945 II, in which your definition applies.

[Squire Grooktook]

With at least three definitions of "manic" floating around, two of which are total opposites of each other, the word is meaningless. If someone told me "there's a new manic vert on XBLA," he might as well have left manic out.

Yeah. No two people seem to have an identical classification of these terms. I just personally prefer to use these terms since they're the most clear to me.

I really just divide shmups into two categories: Traditional/oldschool/normal shmups, and manic/bullet hell/danmaku shooters. I know there are games that seriously straddle the line between the two, but I think it's easier to place those on a case by case basis, rather then start differentiating between manic and bullet hell and danmaku and what have you.

Danmaku.
Military Terminology, spread fire in every direction to keep the enemy away.
Watch Gundam.

Really? I thought it meant "curtain fire" as in a wall of bullets on a 2d screen. If it was Japanese military terminology, that would be cooler, but it's still a mouthful imo.

[NTSC-J]

Danmaku.
Military Terminology, spread fire in every direction to keep the enemy away.
Watch Gundam.

Really? I thought it meant "curtain fire" as in a wall of bullets on a 2d screen. If it was Japanese military terminology, that would be cooler, but it's still a mouthful imo.

You're right, in game terminology it means literally "bullet curtain" and refers to a large amount of bullets on the screen. The term started being used with DoDonPachi.

Note that there are two types of bullet patterns referred to as danmaku: the first being the large walls of bullets as seen in many Cave games, the second being bullet barrages that aren't aimed directly at the player (like in Raiden), but are scattered in the general direction of the player's ship, like during mid-boss battles or from large enemies.

It is also a military term referring to curtain fire, air assaults, barrages, etc.

Fun fact: the term for those pink popcorn bullets in the DoDonPachi games is "nikudango" which are Japanese meatballs:

[KAI]

Nikudango doesn't make sense. Bullet Wall Go perhaps.

[Edmond Dantes]

I'm with the OP. Bullet Hell games are just not interesting to me most of the time. I rather miss the days when Shmups had actual interesting levels (remember the part of Thunderforce III where you have to take the lower path in a split, but then fly backwards for a second and take the higher path?)

Bullet Hell games seem to be just... dodge the bullet, dodge some more. With no actual LEVEL design. Unless I've been misinformed.

[Lord Satori]

That greatly depends on which game it is. Not every bullet hell game is like that. What got me into the genre is the music, the intricate patterns, and the unique character designs.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Bullet Hell games seem to be just... dodge the bullet, dodge some more. With no actual LEVEL design. Unless I've been misinformed.

Yeah, it's not like Cave designs their levels to take advantage of their scoring systems or anything. sarcasm, duh

[KAI]

If you want scoring for grazing walls, play Shikigami no Shiro.
I personally hate background interaction on TATEs.

[Squire Grooktook]

As I said before, when you really get into a GOOD bullet hell shooter, it doesn't matter whether the enemy hitboxes your doding are environmental hazards, or bullets, it's still a hitbox to avoid, and has the same sense of pressure.

I'm not going to go so far as to say the genre's are identical when you get down to it, I think they all have their own strengths and weaknesses


Traditonal Strengths IMO

-More strategy, not having a super tiny hitbox means you can't dodge certain things, and thus have to utilize strategy to avoid being put in such situations

-Environmental hazards are actually threatening, lending a lot of variety to stages that can instantly be recognized

-Larger hitbox means threats can be more subtle, not everything has to be a giant clusterfuck in order to be a serious threat


Manic/Bullet Hell/Danmaku Strengths IMO

-Generally you can't just kill everything before it becomes a threat like a traditional shooter, so you have to keep your execution and focus high in order to avoid dieing, unlike some regular shmups where after optimizing your strategy you can play on 90% muscle memory.

-Gennerally involved scoring systems

-Smaller hitbox makes for a very high skill ceiling, there's almost no limit to what can be dodged, so the games can just keep getting harder and harder.

[NTSC-J]

Bullet Hell games seem to be just... dodge the bullet, dodge some more. With no actual LEVEL design. Unless I've been misinformed.

Yeah, it's not like Cave designs their levels to take advantage of their scoring systems or anything. sarcasm, duh

This all day. Good level design isn't just avoiding rocks and volcanoes. (The good) Cave games have very well-thought-out enemy placement that plays to the scoring systems of each game. I'm not a big DOJ player, but every enemy placement is deliberate and meant to challenge the player to find a route to make a full chain, but not making it impossible. If they wanted they could just have long gaps of nothing to break your chain, but they want you to come up with strategies to connect it all while also dodging bullet patterns.

[k39bk]

I thought bullet hell/manic/danmaku are the same but this forum & some other search results gave me an impression that manic can also be refered to some transitional shooters like Dangun Feveron, some later Toplan titles, Cho Ren Sha, Rakka, Psikyo games etc. So all bullet hells are manic but all manic aren't bullet hell & about Raiden it seems majority want to see it in Traditional catagory.

Can someone contact OXFORD?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So all bullet hells are manic

I dunno, I've played some games with enormous bullet counts where the bullet speeds were so slow and the gaps so huge that it never really felt all that manic. I always thought manic referred more to a bullet speed/intensity thing.

[Ed Oscuro]

Why would you want to get into bullet hell? I spend all my time in shumps trying to get out of it.

Yeah, Raiden games (including Fighters) are more traditional in terms of the play mechanic. Raiden Fighters games actually aren't traditional and are instead form the basis of a "stuntman" subgenre where there is more latitude in difficulty, with an opportunity for altering the risk and reward basis of scoring with optional bullet grazing, leaving certain enemies alone for a period of time and withstanding attacks, uncovering hidden enemies, and certain somewhat tricky medalling patterns. It doesn't seem more difficult than Raiden DX (which has pickup timing) but it is an interesting (more interesting, in my view) evolution of some concepts in that much more traditional shooter.

[jasoncslaughter]

I think there are some good suggestions for non bullet hell games here, particularly Psikyo and Takumi games. As far as the terminology, I was under the impression that bullet hell referred to larger, non-aimed bullet formations as opposed to the faster, aimed projectiles favored by a lot of the earlier shmups. That being said, I never thought of it as a definite classification for an entire game, but perhaps a style of bullet patterns that may exist within a game.

At the end of the day, I think you have to play a game with appropriate goals in mind, and judge it on its own merits. And if you don't like bullet hell, whatever that is, then no problem. There are plenty of quality shmups to go around!

[EmperorIng]

By Dragon Blaze, I think you can see Psikyo experiment with some "danmaku"-esque patterns on the bosses; it's almost like they were testing the waters outside of their own distinctive style of bullet patterns. Still one of Psikyo's best, in my opinion.

They were experimenting with Danmaku since Sengoku Blade, by Dragon Blaze they were fully in that style.

This is what I get for not playing Sengoku Blade!
I might pick up the saturn copy one day though, if I can find it in the $30ish range. The prospect of a Psikyo game not needing to be played TATEd is a tempting one indeed!

[louisg]

This is what I get for not playing Sengoku Blade!
I might pick up the saturn copy one day though, if I can find it in the $30ish range. The prospect of a Psikyo game not needing to be played TATEd is a tempting one indeed!

That is seriously the reason I have my copy. Sengoku Blade is my Strikers 1945 II replacement, and Sokyugurentai is my RayForce replacement. Neither are quite as good as the games they're similar to, but they satisfy the urge

Ed, that's a nice analysis of Raiden Fighters. I try to imagine an alternate shmup history where not everything has to be bullet hell/manic/whatchamacallit, but still manages to evolve. I think that's one reason I dug S.I. Extreme so much.