Playing retro consoles on a modern TV on a budget. how?

[zaphod]

THe following are musts.

1) upscale all sources to native res of TV (1080p).
2) keep correct aspect ratio (pillarbox when needed)
3) sub frame lag time. SOme retrogames are just impossible to handle with lag.
4) accepts composite, component, and possibly svideo, for those consoles that can't do component (but can do svideo).

THe following would be nice
1) do the right thing with 240p, 480p, 480i, and 720p.

The following are not needed

1) scanlines. they look like crap on 1080p anyway, unless the scaler actually scales to 960p and letterboxes it.
2) image enhancement. Upscaling needs to be FAST. Image quality is secondary to raw performance.

Is there really no way to get all consoles lagless output to the native resolution of a modern TV without spending more than the cost of the tv or the console?

[Fudoh]

3) sub frame lag time. SOme retrogames are just impossible to handle with lag.

there are very few processors with a <= 1-frame lag. Your TV will most likely introduce more lag than the processor anyway.

1) scanlines. they look like crap on 1080p anyway, unless the scaler actually scales to 960p and letterboxes it.

that's not true. only a few external scalers are so bad that they can't scale scanlined images to full 1080p. And only a few older TVs as well. Usually 480p with scalines look great scaled to 1080p.

Is there really no way to get all consoles lagless output to the native resolution of a modern TV without spending more than the cost of the tv or the console?

no, there is not.

[gray117]

http://www.hazard-city.de/

^ is fudoh's site - read it - especially d-interlacing one; lots of scalers reviewed, all aimed at games.

On a budget you're probably looking at hdbox pro or clones thereof.

[zaphod]

3) sub frame lag time. SOme retrogames are just impossible to handle with lag.

there are very few processors with a <= 1-frame lag. Your TV will most likely introduce more lag than the processor anyway.

Yea, that's a big problem now, isn't it? You try making shots from the end of a flipper on a digital pinball game on a laggy tv and get back to me.

Many TVs are good enough at native resolution, in game mode. ANything else just ruins 2d retrogaming in my experience.

1) scanlines. they look like crap on 1080p anyway, unless the scaler actually scales to 960p and letterboxes it.

that's not true. only a few external scalers are so bad that they can't scale scanlined images to full 1080p. And only a few older TVs as well. Usually 480p with scalines look great scaled to 1080p.

Scanlines only look good when they are all the same height, and that's physically impossible on 1080p. Iv'e seen what happens when you try to add scanlines to a resolution not a multiple of the original. you get some doubled or dropped lines, which looks bad on stationary screens, but even worse on vertical scrolling ones. In fact, even without scanlines i notice the artifacts when trying to scale to a non multiple, unless bi/trilinear filtering is on to smooth the stretched pixels out. They stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah when the source is 240p, it's a little easier to not see those (some pixels 5 tall instead of 4), but scanlines brings them back with a vengeance.

Maybe i'm a snob here, but i find those artifacts really hard to ignore.

Is there really no way to get all consoles lagless output to the native resolution of a modern TV without spending more than the cost of the tv or the console?

no, there is not.

Sigh. i was afraid of that.

You can talk all you want about lag not being noticeable, but that's only because you haven't played some worst case scenarios, like Battletoads stage 11. Yes, there are games where even two frames of lag will get you killed nearly unavoidably. Fire up battletoads on a real crt, and compare playing on it with a modern HD display. If you can even reach stage 11, you will most likely find it impossible except on the CRT. Some would call this bad design, but it simply wasn't that uncommon back in the day.

[fagin]

I'm sorry but you're talking out of your backside when you refer to not being able to scale to 1080p with pixel perfect scanlines. We've been doing this for years so it's nothing new.

[zaphod]

Try that with NTSC.

I guarantee you you will see artifacts.

PAL (540i) does scale perfectly to 1080p.

if you try to scale ntsc (480i) up you get 120 unused lines. Either you letterbox, which keeps the pixel mapping perfect, or you insert 120 doubled lines. This sticks out like a sore thumb with scanlines.

What's so hard to understand about this?

Oh wait, you are probably talking about slapping scanlines onto the scaled output, which has it's own problems.

I meant putting scanlines between the original pixels, like every single emulator ever does it.

[matrigs]

oh, lemme grab my popcorn quickly

[panzeroceania]

on a slightly related note, do any scalers let you put a 1080p signal out to your TV, but then allow you to output a 1x, 2x (line doubled), or 3x (line tripled) picture, centered on a black background on your display?

I know most people would say, "egad! non fullscreen, your mad!" but there are times where it would be handy to be able to do such a thing.

[fagin]

Try that with NTSC.

I guarantee you you will see artifacts.

PAL (540i) does scale perfectly to 1080p.

if you try to scale ntsc (480i) up you get 120 unused lines. Either you letterbox, which keeps the pixel mapping perfect, or you insert 120 doubled lines. This sticks out like a sore thumb with scanlines.

What's so hard to understand about this?

Oh wait, you are probably talking about slapping scanlines onto the scaled output, which has it's own problems.

I meant putting scanlines between the original pixels, like every single emulator ever does it.

90% of my collection is NTSC.

I'm referring to taking a 240p image (or 480i), linedoubling to 480p overlaid with scanline emulation and then scaled by the TV scaler to 1080p. Pixel / line perfect scanlines and with the appropriate processor, zero deinterlacing / scaling / processing artifacts. I can assure you 100%.

[cools]

I think know what zaphod is getting at - he wants the emulated scanlines to be pixel perfect on the 1080 display AS well as on the original output, not scaled over multiple pixels of the final display.

Start with 240

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Linedouble, apply scanlines (480)

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PPPPP
SSSSS

Scale up... You can't simply double both the pixel or the scanline any more if you want to fill the screen. You can do 960.

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PPPPP
PPPPP
SSSSS
SSSSS

But anything else requires uneven lines for either the pixel or the scanline, or a mixture thereof.

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PPPPP
PPPPP
PPPPP
SSSSS
SSSSS

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PPPPP
PPPPP
SSSSS
SSSSS
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[Fudoh]

but the later two combinations won't happen on any display unless it has a very, very bad and basic scaling engine and was built many years ago.

[cools]

Of course, but surely on modern sets you end up with a mixed scanline/pixel line on 120 lines of the screen?

[Fudoh]

no, you end up with mixed lines on ALL the pixels. You must not imagine scaling as a nearest neighbour upscale with filled lines in between, but as a rescaled image with recalculated pixels throughout.

[cools]

Right, then that's precisely what zaphod wants to avoid unless I'm very much mistaken. He wants the upscaled pixels and scanlines matching with equal lines of final pixels, everything integer scaled.

[fagin]

But it's not actually a problem though is it with appropriate hardware.

Zaphod stated that scanlines look crap on 1080p which they do not in my experience. I can take all manner of source resolutions including 240p, 480i & 480p and by adding appropriate hardware, retain pixel perfect emulated scanlines on a Full HD (1080p) display. A HD Ready (720p) resolution TV is another matter, which has been discussed many times.

[cools]

I agree with you that they're not dog awful, but I agree with zaphod that pixel perfect is misleading - they're pixel perfect on the upscaled image, but not pixel perfect on the final screen.

[Fudoh]

but not pixel perfect on the final screen.

but does that matter in any way ?

[fagin]

You've really lost me mate.

[cools]

Depends how fussy you are and how close you sit to the screen

fagin: hopefully this will explain it.

Original image:


Linedoubled:


Linedoubled, 100% scanlines:


Linedoubled, 100% scanlines, upscaled integer (each original pixel and scanline is exactly 2 pixels high on the final image).
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/images/b/bd ... nteger.png

Linedoubled, 100% scanlines, upscaled fractionally to fill all 1080 lines.
http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/images/7/76 ... tional.png

The full screen image looks like this when zoomed in on (the lines are not all the same as they were in the linedoubled & scanlined image):


When viewed normally, on certain parts of the image I notice the fractional scaling - the bricks in the background and the yellow of tiki in particular. It's worse when in motion.

Now of course, this is an artificial example using a perfect digital source. If I simulate the real world and work with a slightly softer image, but still scale on an integer after applying the scanlines we still get virtually pixel perfect lines, just with some minor blurring/softening of the image:


And if this isn't what zaphos is talking about I'm prepared to facepalm dramatically at the time I've just wasted explaining it.

[fagin]

OK - understand what you mean.

Never noticed it and I'm pretty anal.

[cools]

It does depend a lot on what game/screen/distance. TNZS exhibits it nicely as it's got lots of areas of flat colour.

[Fudoh]

well, first of all, it depends on the scaling engine in use. There is no reason why the scaling should turn out like this, once you use another display.

[cools]

You're the expert on those

For those that don't exhibit this behaviour, are you able to get captures of the final picture? I'm curious as to what the scalers are doing to the image as the maths say it's impossible.

[zaphod]

Depends how fussy you are and how close you sit to the screen

And if this isn't what zaphos is talking about I'm prepared to facepalm dramatically at the time I've just wasted explaining it.

Yes, that's exactly what i'm talking about, and i spotted the artifacts immediately. it really jumps out at me. and it's much worse with vertical scrolling.

High quality filtering does seem to mitigate it somewhat, especially in still images, but i find it a lot more noticeable in motion.

[BuckoA51]

You should just by a CRT and have done with it.

[lettuce]

So the OP is gaming via emulation or real console then?

[panzeroceania]

well if you want to do integer scaling you'd have to do 960.

is there any scaler that can float a 960 image in a 1080 signal with black surrounding it? I trust Fudoh that a good scaler wouldn't have such issues, and that it's a lot more complicated than simply that.

I know I have no issue with my scalers, although I prefer to use CRTs still, but that has nothing to do with the scaler.

So the OP is gaming via emulation or real console then?

THe following are musts.

4) accepts composite, component, and possibly svideo, for those consoles that can't do component (but can do svideo).

The mention of these inputs, and no mention of HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, or VGA seems to suggest that he only plans on using consoles, not a PC.

The funny thing to me is being so caught up on if a scaler is scaling properly, or about scanlines when you're using composite and svideo. Moving to RGB should be the first priority. most consoles visuals are made in RGB, and all pixels on monitors are output in RGB.

[matrigs]

Snes 2 has not RGB, NTSC Gamecube has no RGB, N64 has no RGB unmoded.

[panzeroceania]

Snes 2 has not RGB, NTSC Gamecube has no RGB, N64 has no RGB unmoded.

SNES 2 and N64 can be modded, gamecube has progressive video, you can either transcode YPbPr to progressive RGB, or mod a D-Terminal cable into a VGA cable.

Not ideal, but quite possible. SNES 1 > SNES 2 anyways. You might say "well that takes a bit of time and money" so does buying buying deinterlacers, upscalers, displays, transcoders, video switches, scanline generators, etc.

You're going to spend money no matter how you slice it, the question is how will you go about it.

[matrigs]

Snes 2 has not RGB, NTSC Gamecube has no RGB, N64 has no RGB unmoded.

SNES 2 and N64 can be modded, gamecube has progressive video, you can either transcode YPbPr to progressive RGB, or mod a D-Terminal cable into a VGA cable.

Not ideal, but quite possible. SNES 1 > SNES 2 anyways. You might say "well that takes a bit of time and money" so does buying buying deinterlacers, upscalers, displays, transcoders, video switches, scanline generators, etc.

You're going to spend money no matter how you slice it, the question is how will you go about it.

This is not my topic so i couldn't care less. I'm just trying to understand OPs' point which is still pretty unclear.