Budget scaler for my setup?

[tpp]

Hoping for some recommendations... I'm new to the scaler scene, having only recently been dragged into the HDTV age, and have been reading a lot here over the last week. I'd like to buy a single, relatively fuss-free scaler that I could use for a variety of consoles on my HDTV (a CRT is not practical space-wise). Clearly, the best choice would be the XRGB-Mini (I've read pretty much the whole thread at this point). But... I'm honestly just not that hardcore. I don't have a ton of gaming time nor are my eyeballs as demanding as those of most folks here. I have more important things to spend $500 on. I'd prefer to find something passable for no more than $150, including whatever cables and converters I'll need. Mainly I'd want to play N64, PS1, and PS2 games (all NTSC as I'm in the States). Maybe Wii or GC stuff at some point, though I don't have those consoles at the moment. NES/SNES stuff I'd probably just emulate. No need for any Segas, Turbo-Grafx, or weird Japanese stuff. I'd prefer not to go modding consoles or wiring cables myself, and I can live without scanlines. My TV has only HDMI, Component, and Composite inputs - no VGA or S-Video.

So, is there a non-junk option for me out there? The only budget option I've seen mentioned here recently is the HDBoxPro, but the more recent comments on that are not so enthusiastic. I'm also not sure what all I'd need to do a good job converting the inputs and outputs appropriately (again, only HDMI on my TV). But maybe that's still the best choice unless I'm willing to spend hundreds of dollars more.

Thanks for any suggestions you can provide.

[Fudoh]

Get a DVDO processor along with a Scart to RCA breakout cable to connect RGB sources to it.

You should be able to get a VP30 for around $130-160. If you don't need a VGA input (for Dreamcast for example), you get a VP20 instead for maybe $120-140. That's the best choice in the price class.

[Stainomo]

I have a DVDO iscan HD which i'd like to sell, interrested -> PM me!

Does composite svideo component RGBS in, VGA or DVI (hdmi) out!

Located in Europe so depending on your location shipping might be high

[cskcsk]

Get a DVDO processor along with a Scart to RCA breakout cable to connect RGB sources to it.

You should be able to get a VP30 for around $130-160. If you don't need a VGA input (for Dreamcast for example), you get a VP20 instead for maybe $120-140. That's the best choice in the price class.

Where would you get a vp30 for that price?

[Fudoh]

Two days a VP30 with ABT102 ended for $202 on ebay.com and a few days before that I bought a VP30, again with ABT102 for 170 EUR. Only because some people ask $300 or more for a unit without the upgrade, doesn't make it a "real" price.

[tpp]

Thanks for the suggestions. I read up on the VP20/30 on Fudoh's page. If I understand what I'm reading correctly, the VP30 doesn't really give me anything more for the extra money anyway, since the only addition is RGB input/output, my TV doesn't take VGA, and I don't have any consoles with native VGA output. With the VP20 I can just plug stuff up on S-Video or Component (as appropriate), connect the HDMI to the TV, not require any extra converters, and at least not have things look too horrible. Does that sound correct? The VP20's (with deinterlacer) seem to come around on eBay semi-regularly for $100-$150 or so, and I can handle that. My feeling is that if I ever get to the point where I want to mod consoles for RGB output or add scanline emulation to the chain that I'd just sell off the cheap solution and buy a Framemeister to do it right. Sadly, I don't think I'm going to get to that point, since I just don't have that much free time for gaming these days.

[Fudoh]

everything correct. And don't pay to much attention to the ABT102 upgrade card. The VP20 on it's own is pretty good already.

[tpp]

And don't pay to much attention to the ABT102 upgrade card. The VP20 on it's own is pretty good already.

Without the card, do the VP20/30's display the text-related bug from the Sil503/504 on 240p? I'd definitely want to be able to play PS1 RPG's cleanly.

[Fudoh]

It does exhibit the bug, yes, but it's not as harsh as it sounds. I would grab a VP20 in any configuration you can find and you can still get a ABT add-on later on, if you think you need it.

Here's a rather fresh shot of the SiI504 240p problem. Ignore the exagerated sharpness setting. Pay attention to the green "5" and where the pixels in the middle on top are little higher than the ones on the edges....

[tpp]

It does exhibit the bug, yes, but it's not as harsh as it sounds.

Indeed - that's a lot less dramatic than the pic shown on the review page. I could live with that. Thanks for the fresh pic.

Is there a relatively simple explanation as to why 240p needs deinterlacing at all? On the face of it, that seems counterintuitive.

[fagin]

Is there a relatively simple explanation as to why 240p needs deinterlacing at all? On the face of it, that seems counterintuitive.

Deinterlacing is required when the source is actually being recognised as 480i instead of 240p it should be recognised as.

[Fudoh]

That's right, but since the SiI504 didn't do any motion adaptive deinterlacing, it does pretty well on 240p material, including working 30Hz flicker effects.

[tpp]

I won that VP20 (w/deinterlacer) that just ended for $105 shipped on eBay. Seems like I got a pretty good deal. I'm sure it will be a lot better than nothing, and it's definitely a price I can live with. I'll post back with my thoughts when I receive it.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Fudoh]

Really, really excellent price for an excellent processor !

Don't be so pessimistic about it. That's a $1800 combo.

When you receive it, don't switch it on !! First open the case and make sure the ABT102 card is fitted properly. The card can easily become loose in transit and a half-fit card can damage the processor during boot-up.

[tpp]

Don't be so pessimistic about it. That's a $1800 combo.

I didn't mean to sound pessimistic at all. There's always something better when it comes to any kind of technology, but I think this will be an excellent fit for me. I'm looking forward to receiving it!

When you receive it, don't switch it on !! First open the case and make sure the ABT102 card is fitted properly. The card can easily become loose in transit and a half-fit card can damage the processor during boot-up.

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tip!

[tpp]

I received the VP20 today and did some initial setup. The video looks fine for starters (though I'm sure I can tweak a bit more later), but I don't seem to be able to get any audio at all. At the moment, I'm just routing audio into the analog audio inputs and expecting it to go out the HDMI output along with the video. I've selected "Stereo" in the Input Adjust screen. There's no receiver or any other audio processing going on. As far as I can tell, the audio should just work, right? I don't see any other settings in either the VP20 or the TV that seem relevant, and the TV picks up audio from other HDMI inputs just fine.

I'm going to try using the digital audio output to the TV instead, but don't have an optical cable handy. I'll hop over to the Target to pick one up after the kids go to bed and see what that gets me. Any other ideas in the meantime?

[Fudoh]

can be difficulty on some TVs and is caused by the way the VP20 embeds the audio into the HDMI signal. If you have the chance to use Toslink or coax instead, you'll be much happier.

[tpp]

Super. I got an optical audio cable and realized that the TV doesn't take an optical input (which is no surprise, really). I did at least use it to check with the PS2's digital out to confirm that I don't get any audio via that source either.

Is there any kind of workaround for this beyond just pumping the sound into a receiver?

[Fudoh]

If your TV has a analogue sound input (it most certainly does), you can just a small and cheap D/A converter to the VP20's toslink output and connect it this way.

[Ji-L87]

can be difficulty on some TVs and is caused by the way the VP20 embeds the audio into the HDMI signal. If you have the chance to use Toslink or coax instead, you'll be much happier.

Yeah, I had the same experience with my VP30 and first thought something was wrong with the unit itself. Because, sometimes I would get sound through my TV (used a 2.1 setup hooked into the headphone out) but there would be the occasional pop or crackle noise which worried me. But after redoing my setup and getting a receiver and everything I have not had a single audio related issue with it.

So, yeah, not wanting to stop anyone from picking up any of these units (they're pretty great) but audio through HDMI from the VP20/30 is a bit...unreliable.

Is there any kind of workaround for this beyond just pumping the sound into a receiver?

Edit: Doh, I was slow writing this so Fudoh beat me

Depends a bit on how your setup is built up and how your TV works. Using an external sound system of some kind is easiest because if it doesn't feature audio in through toslink or coax directly, there are cheap converters readily available on places like eBay which will give you stereo through RCA connectors instead.

On your TV, do you have the option to view a video source, HDMI in this case, and get audio from another one, like an RCA/3.5mm input on the back or something?

[tpp]

Thanks for the suggestions. I do have an analog audio input, of course. But AFAICT, there's no way to tell the TV (a Samsung UN32EH5300) to split the audio/video input that way. The analog audio inputs are shared between the composite and component video inputs and automatically attach to those. I will continue to explore, though. Maybe I'm missing something.

What I *do* have is a "DVI Audio In" jack that looks like it pairs with the first HDMI jack. You can see a shot of the rear panel here:

http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/S ... tivity.htm

From what I can tell, it's just a standard 3.5mm analog mini-plug. I guess I could I downgrade the VP20's digital audio output back to that using a DAC of some sort? Is there a cost-effective way to do that, though?

[Ji-L87]

What I *do* have is a "DVI Audio In" jack that looks like it pairs with the first HDMI jack. You can see a shot of the rear panel here:

http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/S ... tivity.htm

From what I can tell, it's just a standard 3.5mm analog mini-plug. I guess I could I downgrade the VP20's digital audio output back to that using a DAC of some sort? Is there a cost-effective way to do that, though?

Converting the audio doesn't have to be expensive at all. Like stated earlier, there are lots of cheap D/A converters out there. For example this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Optic ... 337eb3ffb6
(Maybe you can find one that's closer to you geographically)

About the back of your display,
I'd think that 3.5mm input is solely to be used with the DVI input (which should work as well)...but I can't see it? Is one of those HDMI ports marked DVI? Hard to see in the picture( might just be seeing things) but if so, you could probably connect the VP20 through that and then use one of those cheap DACs and run the cable(s) to the 3.5mm input.

[tpp]

Converting the audio doesn't have to be expensive at all. Like stated earlier, there are lots of cheap D/A converters out there. For example this one...

Yeah, there seem to be plenty of options for $50 or less, including one at the local Radio Shack. I'm sure I can live with the sound.

I'd think that 3.5mm input is solely to be used with the DVI input...but I can't see it? Is one of those HDMI ports marked DVI? Hard to see in the picture( might just be seeing things) but if so, you could probably connect the VP20 through that and then use one of those cheap DACs and run the cable(s) to the 3.5mm input.

Sorry the pic isn't very clear, but it was the best one I could find. There's no "original style" DVI video input like older PC monitors used, but the first HDMI port is labelled "HDMI/DVI". From what I can Google, this is expecting a DVI video signal over an HDMI connector. Then the TV can be told to read the audio by renaming that HDMI input to "DVI PC" in the software.

I guess I have a plan, then.

[tpp]

Success! Ran the VP20's optical audio through a $40 Radio Shack DAC into the "DVI Audio In" 3.5mm jack. We have audio. Contrary to what I read, the TV seems to pick up the audio along with the HDMI 1 input no matter how I name the source. However, different names seem to prompt different processing chains inside the television, so I'll have figure out what works best. Some actual documentation on this would be nice but doesn't seem to exist. You'd think the fact that docs for everything are electronic now would mean that companies could do a better job documenting their equipment without space constraints, but it seems like it just provides them an excuse to slack off. But still... at least it works.

Any general advice on calibrating everything? My TV sets picture options per input, so I'm guessing it's best to use neutral settings on the VP20's input and then adjust brightness, colors, etc. on the VP20?

[Fudoh]

You use the VP20's internal test patterns to adjust the TV first and then you can finetune the inputs on the processor itself.

Most important thing is to chose the correct color space (RGB <> YCbCr422 <> YCbCr444) and it RGB limited or color luminance range. If your TV and/or VP20 is set right you can see from the pludge brightness pattern...

[tpp]

You use the VP20's internal test patterns to adjust the TV first and then you can finetune the inputs on the processor itself.

Right. I read that in the fine manual after I posted. Sorry.

Most important thing is to chose the correct color space (RGB <> YCbCr422 <> YCbCr444) and it RGB limited or color luminance range. If your TV and/or VP20 is set right you can see from the pludge brightness pattern...

Those are exactly the things I was just wondering about, as my settings don't seem right after the first run - I've got noticeable bars at each end of the gray ramp pattern.

For the color space, I see the VP20's output setting to change the color space - that defaults to RGB. Is there a reason to choose something else?

As for the RGB range, the TV supports full-range RGB ("Normal" HDMI black level instead of "Low" in Samsung's backwards language). And I see I can set the VP20's output level to correspond. If I'm routing a DVD player and PS2 and earlier consoles through the VP20, do I set the TV and VP20 to limited range to match those older sources? Or do I set them to full range and adjust that source's brightness and contrast in the VP20?

Are the vertical and horizontal line test patterns supposed to be equally spaced the whole way through, or are they supposed to get closer towards the center? I have clear lines at the edges that sort of merge at the center. The transition is smooth - I don't see anything that seems like a scaling artifact. I'm just not sure that's what the patterns are supposed to look like.

Finally, I'm one pixel short on the left hand side of the screen in the frame geometry test. But the H-Shift option in the VP20 doesn't do anything - I can set it, but the screen doesn't change. And there's no H-Size option at all. I can adjust the screen position on the TV, but that just moves the whole picture and doesn't restore the missing line on the left. I'm not sure what's going here, as other people seem to have gotten the VP20 to shift the image properly.

Sorry for all the questions, but it's incredibly hard to Google up much of use when so much of what's out there is guesswork from people clearly pretending to know much more than they actually do. Thanks again for all the help.

[Fudoh]

The VP20 takes care of the color space and RGB range conversions. You don't have to worry about that. Just make sure that the pludge pattern looks right on your standard brightness setting. Full range RGB is fine. I'm using the same for all my sources and processors as my TV simply performs better this way.

[tpp]

OK, I believe I've got it set up pretty well at this point and have tested a few more titles. Calibrating the VP20 to the source helped a lot - the PS2's saturation, in particular, was quite different from what the VP20 generated directly. PS1/2 games look excellent, at least - I'm waiting on another toslink cable to arrive from Amazon after Christmas to free up the single analog audio input for the N64. (I just couldn't stomach buying a second one from Target at $21 each.) Symphony of the Night looks absolutely spectacular, in fact. My little old standard def LCD TV I used to play on wouldn't accept 240p over component, so I always ran PS1 stuff over composite instead. The VP20 takes care of that. I think I'll need to track down a few more 2D shmups and platformers to play around on. Maybe I can even dig up my old Turbo-Grafx out of my mom's attic and get some Blazing Lazers rolling.

I'm sure there are better setups out there, and that more knowledgeable folks could squeeze a bit more out of my budget. But for a sub-$400 32" TV with less than $200 total in the scaler, cables, and converters, I think this is pretty awesome. I really appreciate the knowledge base here, and will try to honor it by playing a few shmups in between my RPG's.

Wishing everyone a happy holiday!