An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

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NTSC-J
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by NTSC-J »

bestcellar wrote:Interesting to hear that no western player has ever cleared white label on normal.
Not both loops, but a number of us have cleared the first loop. Not many Japanese players have cleared both loops either which is a testament to its difficulty (and low popularity with Black Label around).
bestcellar wrote:Hey man, I just play the games.

I don't really fancy myself an expert or even a good player. I leave the "expert" stuff to you guys. As I said, I just started playing these games this summer. I guess if it makes you feel better to put me down, go right ahead. I really don't care. As for the very hard mode, I'll keep playing it and putting up scores and you guys can keep thinking its dumb.

For what it's worth I feel the cabinet is in excellent shape but obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll just stop posting here. Cheers.
Aw, come on, brother. Play the game however you like and enjoy. I think he's just making the point that its strange to raise the difficulty of something that one is already having a hell of a time with, plus it sort of implies that you've already mastered it on normal so you need to raise it in order to give yourself a challenge (which I know is not what you meant, but that's the impression).
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by moh »

Only shmups forum can scare people off THAT quickly ;)
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by KAI »

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Most elitist and misogynous place on earth, I love this site.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Hagane »

You surely haven't visited shoryuken.com yet.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by hail good sir »

click

(sic)
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Bee Cool
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Bee Cool »

I don't really understand reactions like this, I find this forum to be pretty tame.

Also
KAI wrote:Most elitist and misogynous place on earth, I love this site.
This has to be a joke. Elitist a bit, but I don't find really any stuff pertaining to misogyny.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by drunkninja24 »

hail good sir wrote:I think there is merit to having a somewhat enclosed scoreboard like that, if someone walks up to a machine and sees a realistically obtainable high score then they be more motivated to learn the game and get their name up there. If there was the real world record posted people might just kinda go ".......... oh :cry: "

Calling them world records seems a bit off, but it's all about perspective I guess, most people aren't going to know any better.
Yeah, a local arcade here has a big scoreboard, but just for their "in-house" scores. Makes it a much more relaxed atmosphere for everyone involved. I'd agree that calling their scores "world records" is really the only silly part, but I get what they're going for.

I also agree that the DOJ difficulty setting should be normal, if only so that scores earned there can be compared to scores earned and recognized elsewhere.

I also stopped in the arcade myself with Zerst this past summer, it's a pretty neat place, and besides the monitor issue, the sticks/buttons on the DP/DOJ cab seemed to work alright. I'd definitely go again, especially if that pesky monitor gets fixed.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Deca »

bestcellar wrote:I guess if it makes you feel better to put me down, go right ahead.
That really isn't the intent here.

Your arcade has reached out to our community to let us know who you are and what you're up to, which is honestly really cool! However, you do so in an attempt to generate interest and draw in players while maintaining practices that specifically put off the community you want to invite.

I would guess that 90% of the players on this board have never once altered the difficulty settings of any shooter they're playing, and if they have it was for a specific themed challenge or just goofing around. Nobody putting serious effort into learning DOJ at home has the settings on anything other than defaults.

DOJ is a rare game in US, and a lot of people that have a fair amount of time invested in it (myself included) have often thought to themselves, "hey it'd be really cool if I ever had the chance to play this in an actual arcade and show off a bit!" However, taking all of that practice and skill up to a cabinet with the dips jacked up to Very Hard is going to rend them largely null and void. Scoring strategies will basically be thrown out the window and gameplay will be reduced to desperate flailing about attempting to deal with a difficulty level the game was never balanced on and that the creators never actually intended to be used.

It almost amounts to an unintentional cruel trick. It would be like seeing a Wangan Midnight 4 cabinet, running up to it and excitedly throwing your money to have it boot into Cruis'n USA.


Also, listing 33mil on DOJ as a "World Record" on Aurcade makes the whole thing look REALLY BAD. Just for the sake of comparison, I'm a horrible DOJ player and I don't have much trouble reaching 100mil on a botched run. This could easily be remedied by making it say "Aurcade Record."

To be honest I completely understand the idea of having a small, isolated scoring community like this. It promotes competition among lower level players (the topranker community, especially in the west, is quite small) and will likely lead to players breaking out of that and continuing to develop in the global community. However, presentation is EXTREMELY important with this sort of thing because even marginally knowledgeable people that glance at this High Scores page with no context at all are going to write it off instantly.


I know we may seem harsh, but I really feel that most of us have good intentions. I personally would really like to see your arcade grow and succeed. It's a bit of a drive for me but I'd be willing to make trips out there if it were an environment conducive to serious play. Putting hours of practice in on a real machine with other players there in person is an experience I would greatly appreciate.
Last edited by Deca on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by bestcellar »

Deca,

I appreciate your response.

First of all, it's not like I want to misrepresent myself or my scores in any way. I have literally no ego about this. I just play, and turn scores in when they are personal best. "World Record" really is the "known World ARCADE Record" at GGA because honestly we haven't had access to a lot of reliable resources yet. The arcade is 2 years old and constantly evolving. The arcade's standard practice has been to cite what we know of as a "world record", which is often flawed information from 30 years ago via Twin Galaxies. If Aurcade has no other scores, we often have no idea where we could really be at.

Certainly I've seen DOJ vids on normal with dudes running 35 mil on the first level. I have no delusions about where my skill level is at.

There absolutely ARE scoring strategies on Very Hard, and ones that are exploited in the vid I posted. I haven't mastered them, but there is a way to chain all of at least level 1 and level 2. I also happen to think that the game wouldn't have been programmed (even on Very Hard) if there wasn't a way to chain everything. It's just harder. Yes, your chaining is necessarily different. It would be interesting to see a lot of top players play on that mode just to see what they would come up with.

Not to speak for him prematurely, but Doc and I have spoken tonight and I think reverting DOJ to normal is under serious consideration, in light of the input here. I think the arcade's only interest is in bringing people in who are enthusiastic about these games, and if that's the way to do it, that might be the way to go.
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Deca
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Deca »

Right, I do understand where you're coming from with the scoring format. I would like to say once again that I do like the idea of a somewhat isolated scoring community as well, it'll get people a lot more motivated to compete within the arcade rather than scaring them off. It's easy enough for the top players within that community to compare their scores against the true WRs.

I believe I misrepresented myself slightly regarding my comments DOJ. I didn't mean to suggest that there were no scoring strategies present on Very Hard, but rather explain what the experience would be like for the majority of serious players. Strategies a player is very comfortable with and has refined over many hours will prove ineffective.

I really appreciate you guys taking our input seriously here, thanks for hearing me out :)
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Bee Cool »

bestcellar wrote: First of all, it's not like I want to misrepresent myself or my scores in any way. I have literally no ego about this. I just play, and turn scores in when they are personal best. "World Record" really is the "known World ARCADE Record" at GGA because honestly we haven't had access to a lot of reliable resources yet. The arcade is 2 years old and constantly evolving. The arcade's standard practice has been to cite what we know of as a "world record", which is often flawed information from 30 years ago via Twin Galaxies. If Aurcade has no other scores, we often have no idea where we could really be at.
This is the problem, why wouldn't you guys look? I don't understand that mentality. I would never declare something a world record if I had no idea how to look at world wide scores, that's just ridiculous. You all are turning off a big percentage of people by having extremely low scores labeled as "World Record".
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

I would change the title to "Community Record" and completely ignore everything not achieved within the arcade and be done with it. Less trouble and more realistic goals for the locals. If someone is one of the .00001% who can beat a world record they can go google the score to beat. My 2 cents.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by trap15 »

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:I would change the title to "Community Record" and completely ignore everything not achieved within the arcade and be done with it. Less trouble and more realistic goals for the locals. If someone is one of the .00001% who can beat a world record they can go google the score to beat. My 2 cents.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I find it interesting to learn anybody would find White Label more entertaing on Hard. I for one don't enjoy chaining in (D)DP games, but I've upped difficulty in a couple of shmups I'm not really good at, just to have more fun from the word go.
Falling for the score gimmick in Sonic Wings Special would get me killed sooner than playing on Hard. Since the first boss is way tougher on Hard, I walk that path.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Casey120 »

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:I would change the title to "Community Record" and completely ignore everything not achieved within the arcade and be done with it. Less trouble and more realistic goals for the locals. If someone is one of the .00001% who can beat a world record they can go google the score to beat. My 2 cents.

This !!!
Just call it the galloping ghost record and you can always add aurcade high score behind it if it's that record too .


Some people go way overboard calling everything " World records " , just as nuts as the whole Twin Galaxies thing in the early eighties .
No one in the world knew anything about them or their records in that time but the US :lol:


PS,

Your Arcade is awesome !
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by hail good sir »

a
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Ghostlord »

We have currently returned the difficulty of Dodonpachi Daioujou to Normal. It will be interesting to see what this does to Bestcellar's score. Again we do appreciate the input and this is how stuff changes. It is a growing process.
Stuff as far as what Aurcade calls their scores I really have no direct control over...its not my site or call. I talked to the site owner yesterday (who is always making improvements to the site) and he is very open to the idea of adding more external scores from sources like Arcadia and other reputable scoring houses. So we look forward to helping them update their information.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by hail good sir »

I
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Nick420 »

Dude The whole operation sounds great... but you should seriously listen to what people are saying here... You need to call the "world records" - aurcade world records or something that differentiates them from actual world records. And please, put doj and dp on normal for god sakes man! The regulars you are worried about will surely see the light once you show them how to play properly. There is more than enough challenge in doj normal for any man. Why alienate a ton of potential customers with a silly misguided decision. (the way you talk of you clear goals on very hard proves how misguided you are on this one) I really like that you say you replace worn/failing parts imediately, a problem that has plagued every arcade I have ever spent money. Wish all arcade owners ha the same ethos.

Well good luck! I hope the arcade lives long and is very succesfull :)
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by EmperorIng »

I'd actually like to try and convince my brother or my friends to go there as a sort of joint venture sometime this holiday season.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by bestcellar »

Deca wrote: Just for the sake of comparison, I'm a horrible DOJ player and I don't have much trouble reaching 100mil on a botched run..
I wanted to respond to this point separately, because it touches on a sentiment I've picked up on from lurking on forums and talking to enthusiasts of these games. It seems as though, for many, in analyzing both their own gameplay and others' gameplay, that there is am iota of excellence atop a universe of horrible. I don't really get that. 100 mil in DOJ represents a significant investment of time - why is it horrible? Seems pretty fair to me. I realize I dont have much context, but if you are getting that deep into a game like this you might deserve SOME accolades. Is it that shmup players become hard-wired to not accept anything less than perfect?
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by bestcellar »

hail good sir wrote: Since you're still here I just wanted to say I wasn't trying to put your score down in a "ho ho ho look at these scrublords" way, I was just sitting here thinking it would be funny for someone to walk in, put up a huge score, drop the microphone and walk out. I meant it when I said "be an ass" because it is a dick move, for example I put an obscene amount of time into that terrible game years ago and it's unfair to try and compete with people just having fun. I'd still do it though :D

For the record 6 million is good since you said you've only been playing since the summer and have apparently been playing a ton of other games too. (And really, the fact that you're even trying to play it for score is pretty fucking awesome in my book.)

Thank you for the kind words. I took nothing negative from your post but appreciate the clarification. I'm almost s rank on level 1, a+ on 2 and I've never even completed 3! I have a very lopsided development...I'd like to finish the game but I have no idea how long it would take.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by EmperorIng »

bestcellar wrote: Is it that shmup players become hard-wired to not accept anything less than perfect?
No, that's just Cave games for you. 8)
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Erppo »

bestcellar wrote:100 mil in DOJ represents a significant investment of time - why is it horrible?
Getting over 100M only requires chaining the first two stages. For someone with more experience that probably isn't going to take very long time to learn. It's all a matter of perspective: if you didn't have much trouble achieving it, you're probably not going to feel like it's "good".
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Ghostlord »

The Daioujou blue monitor issue has now also been resolved! Looking forward to Bestcellar coming and playing it this weekend! Also anyone spent much time on Metal Black? Even with Salamander 2 right next to it a lot of people are spending a good amount of time on it (including myself...really digging it
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by Deca »

Don't take it the wrong way, I do feel some degree of pride in my ability to chain what I can so far and it's very satisfying to see the pieces come together. However, I carry no illusions about my ability and achievements compared to the rest of the community. I do have a tendency to get down on myself (and I think that most players who commit serious time to shooters/bemani/fighters/racers do) but at the end of the day I can accept that I am better than a LOT of players. However I tend to associate with a handful of people that includes some of the best western players, and that does a lot for perspective.

Complacency breeds stagnation, if I were happy with my performance and skill I'd lose motivation to work on improving :) In all honesty it's probably an unhealthy mindset, but I think it's shared among a lot of players. Just speaks to the sort of person drawn to these pursuits I suppose.

I was certainly very pleased with myself the first time I reached 100mil in 1-3, but also realized that it only illustrated an understanding of 20% of the game.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by EmperorIng »

Ghostlord wrote:The Daioujou blue monitor issue has now also been resolved! Looking forward to Bestcellar coming and playing it this weekend! Also anyone spent much time on Metal Black? Even with Salamander 2 right next to it a lot of people are spending a good amount of time on it (including myself...really digging it
!
That's good to hear. If I get down there I'd totally dive in to Metal Black. Very trippy, surreal game - I think that's its major selling point, the visuals and music! - that nice and simple to learn as well.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by trap15 »

Ghostlord wrote:Also anyone spent much time on Metal Black? Even with Salamander 2 right next to it a lot of people are spending a good amount of time on it (including myself...really digging it
Amazing game, definitely something to play if you want to play a story-telling and extremely atmospheric STG (which is extremely uncommon).

It might also be because Salamander 2 is a bad game :lol:
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by MommysBestGames »

This arcade sounds great, and I found out just in time! Taking a trip to Chicago around New Years for a few days and I'm gonna make it a point to visit. The active game list is impressive.
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Re: An arcade that has heavy respect for Shumps!

Post by LastDancer »

Deca wrote:The idea of increasing the difficulty of DOJ to provide a "great challenge" is laughable at best, especially considering you're running White Label. DOJWL has never been cleared by a western player and I have a feeling you could count the total number of Japanese clears on two hands.
Difficulty setting only affects 1st loop. 2nd loop is the same no matter what difficulty you choose. Still I agree playing DOJ on "Very Hard" doesn't make sense.
You can find more than 10 Japanese clears on Nicovideo. :D
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