Arcade Controls; Touchpad Instead of Stick?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Thought of this due to this thread today; what would you guys think if shmups were played with an arcade stick except with the stick replaced with a touchpad (buttons still intact)? Are arcade sticks really a thing of the 'dark ages'? Obviously this assumes that shmups were designed to work with it instead of via digital input.

On the plus side, this would fix the immediate problem that iPhone/Android shmups have; there's no analog buttons to shoot with, so all the buttons are crammed onto the screen itself. If you had the buttons of an arcade stick, except with touchscreen controls instead of a stick, it'd fix the issue of it being a pain in the ass to control your shots accurately. On the other hand, touchscreens are way more expensive to maintain, and it removes the speed element from shmups whereby you have to consider your movement speed when lasering, etc, because all shmups would basically control the same (anything not 1:1 control would feel just icky).

I'm still thinking something like this would probably not be as enjoyable as with a stick, because for other games (say, fighting games) that need precise tap inputs in certain directions, you don't have any tactile input as to where your finger is positioned, something that isn't an issue with a stick or a D-pad. It'd basically only be useful for games that use swiping motions or where you're expected to hold your finger on the touchpad (virtual D-pads on touchscreens are just awful).

Does the Wii U Gamepad sort of work like this? Of course, the button layout is icky, and the touchscreen looks awkward and huge... thinking it wouldn't be too much fun holding it while trying to control the game (something you can place stable on the ground like an arcade stick seems like it would be more ideal)?

[moh]

After reading that whole thing I'm still a bit confused as to what you mean. so its like an arcade stick but the touchpad controls whats going on onscreen?

If thats what you're proposing, I think it sounds pretty sweet :]

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Basically an arcade stick with all the usual buttons, but replace the stick itself with a touchpad. You've still got the mechanical buttons to shoot, bomb, whatever with, but instead of holding a stick in your left hand, movement's done with your finger on the pad.

Same idea as something like this (it's a wireless keyboard with a touchpad built-in on the side).

It'd be an interesting idea if they decided to port some of the Cave games to Ouya or something, but I'm not sure if I like the non-tactileness of a touchpad or how you risk moving a lot if your finger should slip compared to something more 'solid' like a stick/D-pad.

[the.borg]

Nay !

Touchpads are the worst.
I hate them on laptops, hate them on mobile phones...
You can't play seriously with a touchpad, and even if you play for fun... well fun isn't there with that control scheme, often there's huge input lag involved.

[xgunnBlaze]

Nay !

Touchpads are the worst.
I hate them on laptops, hate them on mobile phones...
You can't play seriously with a touchpad, and even if you play for fun... well fun isn't there with that control scheme, often there's huge input lag involved.

I did my first 1CC on a touchpad I think it works well for arcade shoot 'em ups! I almost prefer it over arcade sticks or Saturn/PS2 pads.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Bad idea.

What is a legitimate complaint against using a joystick?

I did my first 1CC on a touchpad I think it works well for arcade shoot 'em ups! I almost prefer it over arcade sticks or Saturn/PS2 pads.

Sorry, it doesn't count.

[xgunnBlaze]

Bad idea.

What is a legitimate complaint against using a joystick?

I did my first 1CC on a touchpad I think it works well for arcade shoot 'em ups! I almost prefer it over arcade sticks or Saturn/PS2 pads.

Sorry, it doesn't count.

It playing it on a phone first did help me when I cleared the game with real buttons. I think it helped me memorize the stages and form a routine.

So what if the arcade panel for a particular game had the layout Roo described? Would people ridicule it? I'm not saying this as some sort of defense for touchscreen shoot em ups-- I'm just curious what you guys would think.

[beatsgo]

Touchpads are iffy overall. Accuracy issues and durability will be the driving force of why I would stick with sticks. Actually I would rather prefer an analog stick over touchpad if you ask me, but they cost more.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Touch controls have AIDS.

Horrendous things. Worst gimmick ever.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It playing it on a phone first did help me when I cleared the game with real buttons. I think it helped me memorize the stages and form a routine.

That sounds like it's less due to the touchpad itself and more due to pattern memorization. I'm not saying the iPhone Cave ports are useless, just not as much fun or as precise without the physical shooting button to go with it (I can't imagine trying to play EspII for score with having to manage shot on/off, kakusei, bomb, etc).

So what if the arcade panel for a particular game had the layout Roo described? Would people ridicule it? I'm not saying this as some sort of defense for touchscreen shoot em ups-- I'm just curious what you guys would think.

Unless it was easily swappable, I think it'd be limited to only a few kinds of games. I would never, ever want to play a fighting game on a touchpad as virtual D-pads are the worst thing ever, and I can't see too many other genres (maybe Arkanoid clones?) that would work with a touchpad like a shmup would.

Touchpads are iffy overall. Accuracy issues and durability will be the driving force of why I would stick with sticks. Actually I would rather prefer an analog stick over touchpad if you ask me, but they cost more.

Analog stick in an arcade would be an interesting idea. It'd open up arcade games for a much wider variety of games I guess, although I'd hope it'd be easy to adjust the deadzone. For shmups however, it'd be kinda icky as it's difficult to accurately know where the deadzone is (without an audible click) and it's easy to push it just a bit too far and move more quickly than intended. A lot of shmups are reliant on tap-dodging too, something that is much more difficult on an analog stick. I suppose you'd see shmups being designed around the control method though if they used analog sticks, probably with a slowdown button that fixes any movement registered on the analog stick to a set, slow movement for manuvering through tight patterns.

[Hagane]

Much less precision and more input delay. Plus they are absolutely worthless for genres like fighting games, so you would be limited to what you can play. I'd go for traditional sticks that do the job perfectly well.

[KyoKusagani1999]

Yeah, you might like Touch Screens, but what happens when it breaks?
You're gonna be in a world of bankruptcy faster than you can say "Hibachi"

[nZero]

This made me think of those Turbo Touch 360 pads released in the US for the SNES and Genesis back in the day.

[null1024]

Touchpads don't move as well as one would like when making fine position adjustments.

The only thing related to precision I can seem to get is that you could go at whatever angle you desired, which would be beneficial in some situation, but an analog stick would be better suited.
Or even better, one of those digital sticks with way more than 8 possible directions, and an overlay gate [like on the N64 and Gamecube controller] that would let you identify where the standard straight/diagonal positions were.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Touch controls are here to stay for as long as touchpads will be cheaper to produce than relieble buttons. That's why games will use touch controls. Whether 2D shooters as we know them are easily adaptable to such controls, or need to be re-invented with touch controls in mind is none of my business as I don't intend to purchase this kind of device any time soon.

[null1024]

Graphics artists use special pens on computers to draw, rather than mice because those pens provide a higher degree of precision. What's more precise, a stick/pad or your finger? Your finger.

The pen would be most precise, yes [and would be the ideal touch method for such a situation, fullstop, and I hadn't considered it at all in my previous post]. Your finger on the other hand is just too damn big to get decent precision, and is not only inferior to the pen, but to a pad/stick in terms of input consistency.

One bigger problem with touch inputs would have to be similar to that with mice and whatnot -- when you're near the edge of where you can move, you have to stop moving, pull up from the touchpad, and move your hand to somewhere with more room, which simply isn't an issue at all with pads or stick. Having this occur in the middle of a boss's pattern is likely to be a bit disastrous, even if the game gave you a few pauses in between to move your hand to a more optimal position.

A lot of people are just brickwalling on this issue, but eh. There are legitimate concerns.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There's the digital vs analogue controls thing. Cave ports are converted from digital to analogue from what I gather, thus the mechanics are too different to judge thumb vs... whatever you hold the stick with.
Digital-wise, if thumb was simply more precise, there would be no need for the roll button in Psyvariar ports. Then again, the kind of move required to perform roll with the stick alone is very unusual for shmups.
Analogue-wise, if thumb was simply more precise than the whole hand or both arms, joypads would have long time ago rendered analogue sticks and steering wheels obsolete in flight sims "light" and car games.

While I think not letting the people play PSX Ridge Racers with analogue stick was a bit petty of Namco (buy neGcon or else), I have no reason not to believe those who praise nGcon.
Neither do I have doubts about what people who actually played mobile Cave ports have to say. Other ports (or "ports" in case of stealthy emulation) of the kind are usually criticised for other qualities than controls (sometimes uneven pefrormance appears to be blamed, which is obviously relevant).

The most versatile in this regard games I played were Ys I&II Complete. You can experiment with keyboard, d-pad/arcade stick, mouse and analogue stick. The hardest parts (on Hard) I played through with analogue stick, but found at least one boss easier to defeat with a mouse. Of course on a lappy, you shoud be able to use a touchpad too.
Then there's Geometry Wars: Galaxies. Analogue-only on the Wii and although I believe pointer controls may work just fine, I simply like using twin sticks better. Those very sticks oft-criticised for the octagonal gates.

[null1024]

While I think not letting the people play PSX Ridge Racers with analogue stick was a bit petty of Namco (buy neGcon or else), I have no reason not to believe those who praise nGcon.

stop it

The Dual Shock didn't exist yet. All PS1 analog controllers before that used the neGcon protocol [like every PS1 racing wheel].
And R4 does support the DualShock, because it was released after it came out.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Yeah, I know the first Ridge Racer port predates Dual Shock, but the Turbo version has a Dual Shock mode and it only adds vibrations. The game I found on some demo disc, that is (I think there was a Klonoa demo there as well).

[null1024]

Yeah, I know the first Ridge Racer port predates Dual Shock, but the Turbo version has a Dual Shock mode and it only adds vibrations. The game I found on some demo disc, that is (I think there was a Klonoa demo there as well).

Ah. That was bundled with R4, and I don't recall it working with the DualShock [I'll check tomorrow]. It's just an optimized version of RR1 [definitely pre-DualShock], so I wouldn't expect it to.
The other PS1 Ridge Racer games, Ridge Racer Revolution and Rage Racer were also pre-DualShock.


Back OT,

One bigger problem with touch inputs would have to be similar to that with mice and whatnot -- when you're near the edge of where you can move, you have to stop moving, pull up from the touchpad, and move your hand to somewhere with more room, which simply isn't an issue at all with pads or stick. Having this occur in the middle of a boss's pattern is likely to be a bit disastrous, even if the game gave you a few pauses in between to move your hand to a more optimal position.

You bring up valid points. Sometimes I tend to think in "perfect world" instances, so my example falls into that. Going back to the pen example, if a ship's movement matched the precise movements of the pen, then there would be no problem because your pen would never have to leave the useable interface area, since the ship would be unable to leave the boundaries of the screen.

There is a problem with that, you'd be able to teleport across the screen.
There are 2 ways of dealing with that -- doing collision by line [check if there was a collision anywhere between your initial point and your ending point], or having a max follow speed [can feel nasty if it's low enough to be noticeable].

It is a pretty good solution though, especially since in the situation we're describing, your hand isn't covering up the screen, so such a method works better.

Then there's the whole question of acceptance -- will the players get used to it, or will they just play something else?
Also, porting to anything but phones would be a bitch.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Also, porting to anything but phones would be a bitch.

I'm afraid buttons and d-pads are bound to be considered necessary evil soon (by hardware providers anyway). Nintendo appears to like the idea of plain & simple controllers that are cheap to produce and won't break easily.
I think the problem with traditional controllers is that production costs can't be reduced an awful lot.

[Skykid]

Touchscreen controls are a sin and a curse that needn't be afflicted on gaming unless absolutely necessary.

You want more precision in a shmup, and touchscreens offer that. Simply put, 1:1 touchscreen controls for shmups are superior to pad and stick. I really cannot see how anyone disagree with this.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can't find you in the high score section. How long have you spent giving dedicated time to shmups with a traditional setup? Although there are people capable of amazing things with any interface, the precision high score shmupping requires just isn't there with a touchscreen. A keyboard I can understand, and I'll concede shmups are more playable on a touchscreen than most genres (fighting games, platform games etc) but it's still a handicap anyway you look at it.

While I think not letting the people play PSX Ridge Racers with analogue stick was a bit petty of Namco (buy neGcon or else), I have no reason not to believe those who praise nGcon.

stop it

Please ban.

[spadgy]

Bad idea.

What is a legitimate complaint against using a joystick?

Different things work for different people. I certainly prefer sticks, but I like touch control too, and if some people prefer it, great. The more variety, the better, I think.

I did my first 1CC on a touchpad I think it works well for arcade shoot 'em ups! I almost prefer it over arcade sticks or Saturn/PS2 pads.

Sorry, it doesn't count.

If you beat a game with the control option provided (or it is designed around) then surely it counts?

And as for the posts saying absolutely touch doesn't work - it does for some of us. Well implemented touch (such as in Cave's iOS releases) can offer wonderfully precise movement (for me). Sadly there's loads of bad touch control implementation, but when it works, I find it superb for ultra precise and small movements.

And I hear sometimes people bemoan touch control for making shmups 'too easy'. To play devil's advocate, one logic could deem that any control that (without thinking or acting for the player) makes a game easier to control is arguably a better control system. Of course, we don't typically play shmups for an easy experience, but let's say there was a new control for driving a real world car that made it easier and more precise, wouldn't that be a good thing?

More on topic - I'd certainly give a 'touch stick' an optimistic go.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Don't some "real" arcade games already use touch controls? Other than DDR.

[Jeneki]

Don't some "real" arcade games already use touch controls?

One more reason why Otomedius is the best arcade shmup ever.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Surely for game center owners, it's every bit as "real" as the profit.

[powersoul]

I hate touchpads, not only for games, but general usage. Lacks fluidity in movement, cramps my hand and if I left my palm on it... well, you guys get the idea. I even got pricked by electric current when I left my palm on the touchpad once! (but thats on a laptop).

For shmups... nah, I don't think it will work out. For me, that is.

[DrInfy]

Isn't that kind of the same as suggesting people play shmups with a mouse? Not only is the device precise and accurate, it also has good buttons too, but I don't think any shmup designed to be played with a mouse is taking itself very seriously. I can accept touch screen input on my smartphone when that's the only device I have available, but I wouldn't buy a mouse/touchpad shmup for my xbox or PC.

[-SD-]

The CAVE games on iOS work incredibly well with touch controls, so I'd certainly be interested in trying it.

They should give DDP Maximum a full arcade release with a touch pad on the CP, just for giggles

[shmuppyLove]

They should give DDP Maximum a full arcade release with a touch pad on the CP, just for giggles

I've seen giant-sized versions of mobile games before, it's not that far-fetched actually.