The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

[Ganelon]

Is there a way to compare the various sound engines with the same music? I never really noticed any quality difference between these engines.

[EmperorIng]

It's not really so much a difference in how things play, but rather, how they sound.

Listen to Sonic Spinball. It has the GEMS "sound."

Listen to Shining Force II. It has the Cube "sound."

It's more a matter of instrument presets, as I understand it.

[drauch]

Played some Alisia Dragoon myself for the first time in quite some time. Got fucked halfway through Stage 5. Since I had the genny out, I went ahead and popped in some CV: Bloodlines as well. Good god, I forgot how stiff the controls are in that game; at least with John, that is.

[Drum]

It's a Castlevania game, of course it has stiff controls.

[drauch]

Fair enough. Okay, stiffer than normal. I'm fine with SCIV, Dracula X and Chronicles, but I feel like Bloodlines is even stiffer than some of the Famicom/NES games.

[Ganelon]

It's not really so much a difference in how things play, but rather, how they sound.

Well, for example, Aladdin (listed here as using GEMS: http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php ... ngine_List) sounds quality to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K-lqS9w6r8
So does The Jungle Book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8r0BLUVqU

That's why I was wondering whether it was just a case where an overwhelming number of JP composers were better at programming music or if it's an actual engine quality difference. I'm not familiar with how compatible these engines are but the same tune played on both should reveal an immediate difference.

[BIL]

Played some Alisia Dragoon myself for the first time in quite some time. Got fucked halfway through Stage 5.

Stage 5 is where the game really gets into "memorise or get hit all the time" / "memorise or die" mode (depending on the difficulty), no thanks to all the suicide bullets in cramped spaces from enemies blocking the way. The next stage is a deathtrap maze if you don't know exactly what you're doing... it's that type of game, and I'd probably trade mine in towards PCE Ninja Spirit if it wasn't a particularly good example of methodical sidescrolling. The weapon is awesomely satisfying to kill stuff with and the familiars really distinguish themselves on Hard. Meter-managing both is also surprisingly involving. Bird bomb works great when you know to let him charge up while you're softening up a target, whip him out for the big bang, then send him back to the bench again.

I'm so close to the Hard clear, but I had to re-learn my patterns for all three of the last bosses. They're the same as Normal but do twice as much damage, meaning half as much time to find your feet again.

Okay, stiffer than normal. I'm fine with SCIV, Dracula X and Chronicles, but I feel like Bloodlines is even stiffer than some of the Famicom/NES games.

Maybe you're not using the subweapons enough? Vampire Killer's control is definitely the most permissive of all those Draculas, largely due to subweapons and their specials eating enemies alive, but also the ability to jump on and off stairs, much higher walking speed, selectable light attacks with virtually no recovery time for pests / heavy ones that stun hard targets, and both characters having invincible frames on tap (provided there's a ceiling nearby, in John's case). About the only vestige of the FC games in there is that jumps commit you to a landing spot, otherwise it'd play more like Ninja Gaiden, the Dracula ripoff that's better than Dracula.

Since John has no normal way of hitting stuff above him while on the ground, unlike Eric, the axe is particularly good to have while you're learning the ropes. Even in Eric's case it lets you hit overhead enemies while ducking, if it's not safe to do the Doki Doki Panic superjump.

[EmperorIng]

Well I'm not saying there aren't any GEMS games that sound good... you pointed out some examples yourself.

But I think the knowledgeable and decent sound programmers for Genesis-era companies were few and far between; these inexperienced guys were given a set of instruments that were prone to sounding like iron pipes having sex if handled incorrectly. And due to probably a general rushed development, a lot of Genesis music sounded like that. Though I think in general the Cube set of instruments sounds much better, there are always exceptions, and sometimes, custom sound-sets made by third-party companies sound better than the rest.

Of course, despite all this, the master of FM is and always will be Yuzo Koshiro, but that's hardly disputed. At least I hope.

[BIL]

Here is the definitive "robot enthusiastically jacking his metal dick in a zinc outhouse with no lube" shitty metallic MD music.

And here is a coccyx-shattering boot in the ass of all those ignorant 90s game magazine hacks who made a young, innocent BIL think the MD didn't do good music. I piss in their ashes and salt the ruins of their cities! :[

[stryc9]

Here is the definitive "robot enthusiastically jacking his metal dick in a zinc outhouse with no lube" shitty metallic MD music.

That's practically Mozart compared to some of the stuff EA did.

[BIL]

But does EA have THE REAL METAL SOUND?

[Ganelon]

Of course, despite all this, the master of FM is and always will be Yuzo Koshiro, but that's hardly disputed. At least I hope.

I'm just wondering whether it's the engine or the programmers, that's all. I do agree that the vast majority of euphonically pleasing MD games don't use GEMS. But it's not like I'm a fan of the music used in modern-day western games either. I doubt that Sonic Eraser tune would sound halfway decent even with an amazing sound chip and proper instrumentation; it's just a weak composition.

I'm a big fan of the music in MD games that use Cube but I'd attribute that to being a big fan of Noriyuki Iwadare's compositions. I actually prefer Langrisser II's soundtrack—probably my favorite on the system—over those of its later ports on the SFC, PC-FX, PS, SS, and PC. The synthetic tone (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRnCyiTBgaQ) somehow makes everything sound even more magical than the faux rock instrumentation elsewhere. Based on the quality of his sound driver, I'd say that Mr. Iwadare is the premier FM programmer on the platform.

However, I do feel that Yuzo Koshiro deserves credit for his innovation. He tried just about everything on the system. Bare Knuckle III having partially computer-generated tunes was a daring concept and resulted in some solid yet misunderstood pieces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgjrJga7FI
Including neo-Romantic semi-atonal pieces (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VlRXvQU6qQ) in the The Story of Thor game soundtrack? Very bold. Unfortunately, I think most of it went completely over the heads of players, with no help from the limited sound chip. Shining Force II had an amazing orchestration in the Symphonic Suite; I'm sure Thor would've been an even better surprise with real instruments since it was clearly designed for such a purpose.

Also, is it just me or does that Bare Knuckle II tune sound remastered and higher quality than what a YM2612 in a real MD can produce?

[BIL]

Also, is it just me or does that Bare Knuckle II tune sound remastered and higher quality than what a YM2612 in a real MD can produce?

A few of Koshiro's soundtrack albums use the original PC-8801 sound source, including this Bare Knuckle II disc. "The Super Shinobi & Works" is another.

[zinger]

Those The Jungle Book and Aladdin songs are just... ehm. From what I can remember after playing around with the GEMS editor a few years ago, the patch editor and sequencer was just way too simple to produce anything good. It's not just a matter of "presets", EmperorIng. There are lots of neat tricks you can apply when programming sounds for an FM synthesizer, and the patches can be modified in all kinds of ways during playback of the song (one of the advantages FM has over sample based systems like SFC's), but it depends on if the software controlling the chip allows for that or not, and of course also on the person programming the songs (who has to specify a lot of data about exactly how the music should sound).

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wonder why the Shinobi (2002) OST is reminiscent of MD tunes. Possibly hinting that it was a console game at heart (as if the controls didn't give it away). Long tracks becoming of lengthy (if you don't speedrun) stages at that. Quite a shame the score system does not acknowledge speedrunning, but it's probably another hint.

[drauch]

Okay, stiffer than normal. I'm fine with SCIV, Dracula X and Chronicles, but I feel like Bloodlines is even stiffer than some of the Famicom/NES games.

Maybe you're not using the subweapons enough? Vampire Killer's control is definitely the most permissive of all those Draculas, largely due to subweapons and their specials eating enemies alive, but also the ability to jump on and off stairs, much higher walking speed, selectable light attacks with virtually no recovery time for pests / heavy ones that stun hard targets, and both characters having invincible frames on tap (provided there's a ceiling nearby, in John's case). About the only vestige of the FC games in there is that jumps commit you to a landing spot, otherwise it'd play more like Ninja Gaiden, the Dracula ripoff that's better than Dracula.

Since John has no normal way of hitting stuff above him while on the ground, unlike Eric, the axe is particularly good to have while you're learning the ropes. Even in Eric's case it lets you hit overhead enemies while ducking, if it's not safe to do the Doki Doki Panic superjump.

Yeah, it's very possible; I am pretty frugal with using my special weapons. It's the Castlevania I probably have the least amount of experience with as well. I'm such a goddamn weirdo with emulation, so it took me quite awhile to find a boxed copy and actually play it. Then I moved and it sat on my shelf, abused and lonely for way too long. I think if anything I just need to play it more.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Don't think I've seen any mention of Devil Hunter Yohko ITT. Even though I haven't played it much myself I think it's the best Masaya game by far, very neat charge/shield mechanic with persistent enemies that force you to master it ASAP, and slope heavy level design vaguely reminiscent of the Strider series.

[null1024]

Well, for example, Aladdin (listed here as using GEMS: http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php ... ngine_List) sounds quality to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K-lqS9w6r8
So does The Jungle Book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8r0BLUVqU

Eh. Those tracks have that nasty Adlib sound to them, like they were made for a much less capable FM chip and ported over.

However, I do feel that Yuzo Koshiro deserves credit for his innovation. He tried just about everything on the system. Bare Knuckle III having partially computer-generated tunes was a daring concept and resulted in some solid yet misunderstood pieces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgjrJga7FI

I'm pretty sure that song is considered to be the best track in the game. I always did like how intense the music sounded, although some of it was just bad [like the club stage]. Doing sort of thing right after SOR2/BK2's amazing soundtrack was silly though, people would have expected more.


Also, there is no way Bloodlines is stiffer than any of the NES Castlevanias. Stop it.

[BIL]

What the... I never noticed until literally this very minute that sometimes when you take out those ravens in VK at the summit of the Atlantis shrine, they'll hit the floor and stay there until you manfully splatter them beneath your boots. And I'd noticed the pesky flies that follow some zombies in the castle ruins, no doubt hankering for a taste of that sweet putrefying ass, way back when I played my Genesis in crummy TV blurrovision. Hmm.

edit: oh no - when you're stood on a bird it won't disappear, it'll keep thrashing around until you move. Dracula's evil was hooked up to BLAST PROCESSING for this outing, indeed.

Of course you kill those ravens between murdering the faces off of several bosses. Places to go, monster armours to kill, you can't expect me to keep track of how many shitty birds I stepped on. God I love this game. The other three 16-bit Draculas all have those weenie little enemies like frogs and pigeons acting like they matter. Besides the quintessential bats, in VK you're more likely to run into a horde of trident-wielding harpies who regard being decapitated and spewing gore from their neck stumps as an irrelevant distraction from stabbing the fuck out of you.

Don't think I've seen any mention of Devil Hunter Yohko ITT. Even though I haven't played it much myself I think it's the best Masaya game by far, very neat charge/shield mechanic with persistent enemies that force you to master it ASAP, and slope heavy level design vaguely reminiscent of the Strider series.

Will definitely check this out, it seemed notable when I gave it a very brief spin (shield mechanic stood out) and Masaya means possible awesome.

[Rob]

Devil Hunter is pretty fun, but also feels a bit sloppy. Of course love the boomerang-like sword attack. If I remember right, the character can take a lot of damage quickly. Got completely shut down by the underwater level boss, too. Could not figure that one out at all. Could never beat the clock, which is a pretty unique kind of embarrassment from a jump n slash side-scroller. Makes me feel like people who think Thunder Force IV's bosses take too long 'cause they don't realize "red means hit".

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

Anybody else like Mazin Saga? Seems like I never hear anyone mention it. Pretty decent game I think.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Gave that Youko game a try having watched the OAVs. Old Castlevania fans might like it, I guess, but to me it felt too punishing for the wrong reasons. (I find Chronicles and Green Beret playable, but it's Rondo of Blood where my attention wanders off.) In Devil Hunter, I did not like the rigid controls and animations. She's the Marylin Monroe of Japanese demon slaying in OAVs; can't she move more gracefully in her game? The costume is a hint. Remember Monster World IV? You can tell the protagonist is female there even as she walks.

[zinger]

Mamono Hunter Yoko was developed by KLON, not Masaya. The atmosphere definitely has something, but I agree about the general sloppiness. Stage and boss design is just cheap (and I even managed to get quite far). For a dark-themed side-scrolling action game, I'd recommend Kujaku Ou 2 instead. Very unique atmosphere, and the it lets you fight fetuses!

[BIL]

^That makes me wonder about the NCS Masaya-published port of Hellfire. I was always curious as to how much of it was developed by Toaplan themselves, if not all. Certainly has all the hallmarks of their self-published, in-house developed Zero Wing and Fire Shark ports (same options menu, iirc). A translated interview over at Gamengai definitely suggests it was theirs.

Kujaku Ou 2 does have a style, I particularly liked the second boss's post-defeat scene with a corpse's torso sprouting spider legs and crawling off. Only ever seen a few panels of the source manga but I gather there's a hell of a lot more in there! Have only messed about with the game in emulation to around stage 4, where it suddenly seemed to get serious about its platforming.

Anybody else like Mazin Saga? Seems like I never hear anyone mention it. Pretty decent game I think.

Certainly decent - I was considering picking it up but I got a little fatigued having to double-tap run all the time. Although the beltscroll stages are fun and pretty challenging on Hard, boss battles get a little ridiculous - more about exploiting the AI's flaws than really strategising. Still, not bad at all, particularly for a licensed game.

[stryc9]

What the... I never noticed until literally this very minute that sometimes when you take out those ravens in VK at the summit of the Atlantis shrine, they'll hit the floor and stay there until you manfully splatter them beneath your boots

Ha, I never knew that either. That's cool. I wonder if stepping on birds is one of the things edited out of Bloodlines and/or New Generation?

in VK you're more likely to run into a horde of trident-wielding harpies who regard being decapitated and spewing gore from their neck stumps as an irrelevant distraction from stabbing the fuck out of you.

Man that is some funny shit

Almost beat Comix Zone last night. Was beating the shit out the final boss, Mortus, but took one too many hits and finally bit the dust. Still, a 1CC seems near, and I'm not as worried about the whole 'take damage from breaking stuff' mechanic as I was when I first played this, as there is enough secret items (and rooms) to either get back most of your life or explosives that let you avoid taking damage altogether if used thoughtfully.
This game has some bad ass hit FX and violent screen shake, I love it. Can't believe it came out of the west, of all places The music is not great IMO, but the gleefully violent sound FX more than make up for this, along with some really clear speech.

[Rob]

For a dark-themed side-scrolling action game, I'd recommend Kujaku Ou 2 instead.

Yep.

Another one I like that might have a few misguided dissenters out there: Dahna. If one were rom surfing, this game would probably get dismissed before the first stage ends. Really bad first impression. Riding on the back of some giant with every clumsy attack cutting into the music. Quite solid once it gets to the proper hack n slash action. The real highlight is the stage design, kind of Super Shinobi-ish, where each one has to have its own feel (some things that stuck out - barreling down slopes while hacking down everything, stealth kills on lookouts in its own "over the bay" stage, the "ready for dismemberment" two-headed four-armed boss).

[BIL]

Ha, I never knew that either. That's cool. I wonder if stepping on birds is one of the things edited out of Bloodlines and/or New Generation?

It'd certainly be interesting to see if it's in NG, with all its lame-assed changes (like recolouring the most authentically bloated, rotten, puce-toned animated corpses in the series' history into funky green men from Mars, and what the fuck did they do to my horror masterpiece title screen) - wouldn't surprise me if the animation's still there with red pixels edited out. I'll hold my nose and dive in! AFAIK, Bloodlines is full-fat NTSCJ nastiness with nothing held back. Gen-esis does ♫

Another one I like that might have a few misguided dissenters out there: Dahna.

I tried Dahna's ROM after scouring some 2005 rec topics, from when llabnip and Bar81 posted here. I did persevere beyond the first stage (and a downhill running bit), and loved the sense of production (no cookie-cutter building block levels; genuinely panoramic locales, and that opening was certainly novel). But I did think the combat was a little suspect. Crawling about stabbing ankles seemed a little too effective and jumping didn't feel quite right either. It was a brief impression, though... will definitely go back to it now that you've mentioned it too.

Oh... title screen theme is a keeper, sets quite the tone.

edits: quote tag holocaust

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is Wii really uncapable of 240p output? I guess 480p with scanlines would be a decent workaround, but I don't feel like getting an SDTV with SCART and 480p only to play properly pixellated old games on it.
Was pretty hyped about MD emulation on the Wii, but no "real" 240p would be a turnoff.

[null1024]

Is Wii really uncapable of 240p output? I guess 480p with scanlines would be a decent workaround, but I don't feel like getting an SDTV with SCART and 480p only to play properly pixellated old games on it.
Was pretty hyped about MD emulation on the Wii, but no "real" 240p would be a turnoff.

SNES and NES games on VC run at 240p on the Wii. Haven't bought any Genesis VC titles but I'd expect those to do the same.

[louisg]

Is Wii really uncapable of 240p output? I guess 480p with scanlines would be a decent workaround, but I don't feel like getting an SDTV with SCART and 480p only to play properly pixellated old games on it.
Was pretty hyped about MD emulation on the Wii, but no "real" 240p would be a turnoff.

SNES and NES games on VC run at 240p on the Wii. Haven't bought any Genesis VC titles but I'd expect those to do the same.

I've got Gleylancer and Metal Slug (NeoGeo). Those both do, too.