Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

[EmperorIng]

Fucking price-gougers. Maybe some Sega Saturn TonK-a-likes?

Also, in case anyone missed it on the last page:

Quick question: Can anyone recommend the DS Space Invaders Extreme games? One over the other?

[chempop]

Fucking price-gougers. Maybe some Sega Saturn TonK-a-likes?

No. Garegga on saturn has been around $100 for over 10 years... even when I went to japan in 2002 it was close to that much.

[EmperorIng]

Ah well. Maybe I'll be rich someday.

I played a bit of Souky earlier today before I had to go to work. I did much better this time, focusing on scoring and keeping myself powered-down. The rate the game gives you bombs at this level is pretty amusing. You always have plenty to spare, ha.

I made it to the stage 3 boss on one credit, and ended up with a score of roughly 3,7xx.xxx. I can do better, but I'm not used to dodging as much in Souky, and I am unclear as to the hitbox, as well.

The only real killer is having to wait 20 seconds each time during the lift-off sequence because of the artifact glitches... It really is a drag.

[jepjepjep]

Just played a few credits of Garegga, after reading how to unlock the secret ships.

I seriously cannot believe how awful that game is, and can't comprehend how it gets voted #1 best shmup of all time.

How on earth do you create a shmup with 32 ships, where not a single one is reasonably usable? How do you make a game that has 5 frames of input lag- apparently, on the PCB as well as emulated- and get people to hail it as a classic, instead of as a complete pile of crap? Why do people think that medal chaining is a good score system in any way? Who the hell thinks that "grey bullets on a grey background" is ok color palette selection?

God, what a piece of shit.

Garegga is a slow burn game. The first time I fired it up in mame I was unimpressed too. Wheras the first time I fired up Dodonpachi, I was blown away. If you give it some more time though, you might grow to enjoy it. The soundtrack is excellent. The graphics, while gloomy and dark, are extremely detailed and really fit well with the industrial theme. As far as the ship selection, none of them stand out as being great because they all have strengths and weaknesses. It's just a difficult game no matter which ship you choose.

Yeah, the input lag kind of sucks and it's there on the pcb. But after playing it for a while you get used to it and it's not a concern at all when you're in the middle of a game. Same thing with the cartridge-shaped bullets. Your eyes/brain adjust to it after a while. Medal chaining might not be your thing, but you can still play it for survival without medal chaining; just like you can play Dodonpachi without chaining for score. There's a survival run on youtube that shows how to keep the rank low enough to clear it without any medal collection.

[Obscura]

Just played a few credits of Garegga, after reading how to unlock the secret ships.

I seriously cannot believe how awful that game is, and can't comprehend how it gets voted #1 best shmup of all time.

How on earth do you create a shmup with 32 ships, where not a single one is reasonably usable? How do you make a game that has 5 frames of input lag- apparently, on the PCB as well as emulated- and get people to hail it as a classic, instead of as a complete pile of crap? Why do people think that medal chaining is a good score system in any way? Who the hell thinks that "grey bullets on a grey background" is ok color palette selection?

God, what a piece of shit.

Garegga is a slow burn game. The first time I fired it up in mame I was unimpressed too. Wheras the first time I fired up Dodonpachi, I was blown away. If you give it some more time though, you might grow to enjoy it. The soundtrack is excellent. The graphics, while gloomy and dark, are extremely detailed and really fit well with the industrial theme. As far as the ship selection, none of them stand out as being great because they all have strengths and weaknesses. It's just a difficult game no matter which ship you choose.

Yeah, the input lag kind of sucks and it's there on the pcb. But after playing it for a while you get used to it and it's not a concern at all when you're in the middle of a game. Same thing with the cartridge-shaped bullets. Your eyes/brain adjust to it after a while. Medal chaining might not be your thing, but you can still play it for survival without medal chaining; just like you can play Dodonpachi without chaining for score. There's a survival run on youtube that shows how to keep the rank low enough to clear it without any medal collection.

This is far from my first time giving it a chance, though. I've given it about a million chances (enough to memorize the first two stages, and learn the third enough to make it to the boss). I agree, the soundtrack and graphics are amazing, but they're not enough to make up for the games myriad shortcomings.

As far as the ships having "strengths and weaknesses", as near as I can tell, there's exactly one correct choice- Golden Bat. It's slow as a, well, snail, but it's at least capable of killing things, and it seems best for the flamingos. Gain is second place, but his reliance on those options that have huge gaps between shots is a major downer. Everything else? Pretty much complete crap.

Not medal chaining in Garegga is a very different thing than not chaining DDP. DDP, you can ignore scoring and still get both score extends pretty easily. Garegga's entire system is built around forcing the player to play for score, so that he has the extends to drop. It may be possible for an expert player to totally ignore medals, but clearing that way is going to be about a million times harder than by medalling. But, medalling is pretty much completely unfun bullshit; "oh, hey, there's a line of bullets between me and that medal! Now my entire credit is fucked!" Or, worse still: "oh, hey, I died and my explosion killed an enemy who dropped a medal! So much for that run!" It's even worse in Garegga than in Ibara or Batrider, since Garegga medals have hitboxes the size of ants and fall fast as fuck.

[chum]

In my opinion the game gets fun after stage 3.

Who did you get the ship information from? Goes without saying but you are completely wrong.

I don't know how you could get a line of bullets between you and the medal. Medal drops are predictable and there's hardly any places where there could be "lines" of bullets in the first place. Dropping the chain doesn't mean your run is over, either, just keep on picking up the medals, or ignore them. You don't actually need them if you don't want them.

Garegga really is a pretty forgiving game.

[Obscura]

Who did you get the ship information from? Goes without saying but you are completely wrong.

What am I wrong about?

It may be possible to get a bit more flamingo milkage out of Gain- I'm not certain on that one- but god damn, it's hard to place his bomb correctly to do it.

I don't know how you could get a line of bullets between you and the medal. Medal drops are predictable and there's hardly any places where there could be "lines" of bullets in the first place.

I can think of at least two places in stage 2 alone:
First blimp
Two big ships after the guys that drop exploding bombs.

Dropping the chain doesn't mean your run is over, either, just keep on picking up the medals, or ignore them. You don't actually need them if you don't want them.

It costs you a fuckton of points (since most of the score that isn't flamingos comes from bombing things that reveal medals), and it does you the favor of raising your rank as well, since small medals are much worse for rank than large ones.

Garegga really is a pretty forgiving game.

Uh... no. Any game where you can't have more than 2 lives at once if you're playing it right is pretty much the polar opposite of forgiving.

[chum]

You're wrong about Golden Bat being the only correct choice.

Stage 2 is easily predictable.

Don't worry that much about rank, picking up only a few low-value medals is fine. It's when you hoard them and drop the chain repeatedly that you may want to worry.

[Obscura]

You're wrong about Golden Bat being the only correct choice.

What other reasonable option is there?

Any ship without piercing just fails immediately; you simply won't have enough firepower to do squat. That doesn't leave many options, and Golden Bat is certainly easier to use than Gain's awkward piercing option is.

The fact that, according to the ST thread, at least 80% of Japanese clears come from Golden Bat has to say something about the utility of the various ships.

[Erppo]

...

Almost everything you have said about the game is factually wrong in at least some level. Please stop.

Some quick pointers: the game is extremely forgiving, Gain is better than Golden Bat in pretty much every way, Miyamoto makes the game pretty easy, most of the score does not come from medals, breaking the medal chain isn't that costly, you can predict where medals appear pretty well, you should have many more than 2 extra lives at many occasions.

[null1024]

Battle Garegga [Arcade/MAME].

Just played it for the first time just because of all this talk. Got to stage 3 once, and in one of my runs I seem to have sent the rank sky high, because this horrible cloud of bullets fired out of the second boss that I didn't see on runs before that.

[Obscura]

Some quick pointers: the game is extremely forgiving,

Sure, it's almost as forgiving as Gradius 3.

Gain is better than Golden Bat in pretty much every way,

Aside from his speed, how?

Golden Bat gets piercing for free. Gain has to grab an option to get piercing, and then it only comes in awkward chunks, and his options give him super rank gain.

Surely, if Gain is so much better, 80% of Japanese clears wouldn't come from Golden Bat.

most of the score does not come from medals,

According to the ST, about half of it does.

breaking the medal chain isn't that costly,

Yeah, it only costs you about 25% of your score and increases the rank.

you can predict where medals appear pretty well,

Doesn't matter if there's a line of bullets between you and the medal. Or if you die with a medal on screen.

you should have many more than 2 extra lives at many occasions.

Aside from the very start of the game, where? According to everything I've read, you should suicide down to your last life before the flamingos, do the flamingo trick and get one extend in the process, and from then on, if you're not on your last life when you're about to get an extend, suicide for the rank drop before getting the extend.

[CStarFlare]

I think you're being too aggressive with rank management - try playing normally, picking up options and keeping your lives. Avoid doing things like grabbing every item that drops and collecting items after you've maxed out your power/options and you'll do fine if you're not doing a lot of boss milking. While you're learning you're going to die plenty and aren't going to do things like milk every boss for four or five minutes.

Medals are important, but there are probably not enough to be half of your score if you're taking advantage of bombable scenery and the flamingos. Even at max value, you need 100 medals to get a million points. How many medals drop over the course of the game?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

It's more how many medals are guaranteed to drop during a game assuming correct play?

IIRC, there's some attacks that cause popcorn enemies to show up that might not happen in a run. So you'd lose medals if the bosses don't choose them. IIRC, the Black Hearts can have this happen.

[Obscura]

My experience is that a medal drop at the end of stage 2 already costs about 500,000 by the end of stage 3.

And, by the end of it, the medal value still isn't back to maximum, so it costs even more than that. Probably close to a full extend.

[chum]

How do you even drop a medal at the end of stage 2? Maybe if It's the first time you play the game I could say that happening, otherwise, just no. And please stop with the "lines of bullets" whine. I'm not even gonna address all your mindless points...

[blackoak]

He's probably referring to the two planes that shoot the bullet streams there, where blowing off the wings first results in extra medals following. Its easy to drop medals there until you learn to lightly pepper them with fire and destroy their guns first.

[Hagane]

Erppo is right on all accounts. Miyamoto is the easiest to clear the game with since his shot is extremely powerful and his bomb great for survival. Gain also has really high power and his bomb, while slow, lets you bypass some bosses with little effort.

The game is not that hard if you keep the rank in check, which is also not too hard. Just don't pick EVERY item you see, power up either the options OR the shot instead of maxing both, don't hoard too many lives unless you go for advanced scoring stuff (most significant being Black Heart mkII - most superplays I've seen stop caring about limiting extra lives after the first Black Heart). Most bullets are aimed, so tap dodging works very well outside of bosses. Playing it in TATE on a decently sized screen helps a lot with bullet visibility, but you'll get accustomed to them anyways. Remember that there's an item drop order, so if you see the screen is overcrowded plan your shots to release the medal in a safe location.

Except for a few key points such as the turret wall in Stage 6, the game isn't really all that hard to survive. Give it time, it indeed is one of the best shooters ever made and deserves all the praise it gets.

[chum]

He's making it sound as if lines of bullets being in your way is a common occurrence, though. It isn't until you get to stage 6 where keeping the chain gets tougher.

My guess is that the problem lies in his stubborn use of the slow-ass Golden Bat. Much easier to chain medals with sexy Miyamoto.

[Eaglet]

Dang, missed my chance to deal out some Garegga words of truth. With Justice.
Thank you to those who did though.

Except for a few key points such as the turret wall in Stage 6, the game isn't really all that hard to survive.

Add to this the part after the last laser turret, which is just as hard if you don't know what you're doing (causing only 2 tanks to spawn by sprite overload by not shooting at anything).


Gain and Miyamoto are easily the best ships for survival. Gain best for score too.
Golden Bat is good for... a challenge maybe?
Also has best bird gain of all original ships. Birds are a very small part of the game though. 1,5 mil ain't much in the long run.
Most of the score in Garegga comes from properly executing tricks and destroying stuff with the correct weapon (shot, option, "weapon").

[Hagane]

With the "lines of bullets" complaint I think he means spots like the planes that give three medals at stage 2, before the boss. That part gave me trouble when I first started playing STGs.

You can create openings there with a cutback technique: stay still in a spot (preferably at one side of the screen) to herd the bullets, then quickly move to the opposite side of the screen. That will break the stream and you can now dodge it. In that particular spot stay still and shoot at one wing, move to the other side and shoot at other wing, go back to grab the medal that is falling, shoot another wing, etc. Hope that helps.

[Giest118]

Still playing MushiFutari maniac. I almost got to stage 5 (and subsequently the second score second was a mere few million away) but herp derp let's fucking die twice to the stage 4 boss like an idiot.

It's times like this that I like to scroll through the leaderboards and notice that despite how much I feel like I'm shit at the game, I'm apparently better than over 90% of the other people who've attempted Maniac.

[KAI]

DFK 1.5 first credit, reached the last boss. I have mixed feelings about this game.

[Obscura]

Just cleared the demo for Exceed 2nd: Vampire REX.

I've never played Ikaruga, so I don't know how it compares, but on its own merits, this is a damn good game. Certainly a lot better than Exceed 3rd.

[Drachenherz]

DFK 1.5 first credit, reached the last boss. I have mixed feelings about this game.

What ship and style did you use?

[jepjepjep]

Gain and Miyamoto are easily the best ships for survival. Gain best for score too.
Golden Bat is good for... a challenge maybe?

I find Golden Bat/Iron Mackerel to be good for survival because the slower ship speed makes it easier to tap dodge through tight bullet patterns. The also have good firepower. The only bummer is that the bomb takes so damn long to come out. I died at Black Heart Mk II last credit with four full bomb stocks trying to panic bomb.

[KAI]

What ship and style did you use?

B-Strong. On my next credit I would like to use C-Power.

[Eaglet]

I find Golden Bat/Iron Mackerel to be good for survival because the slower ship speed makes it easier to tap dodge through tight bullet patterns.

That you could just bypass entirely with a faster ship.

[jepjepjep]

I find Golden Bat/Iron Mackerel to be good for survival because the slower ship speed makes it easier to tap dodge through tight bullet patterns.

That you could just bypass entirely with a faster ship.

Gonna have to try that.

[null1024]

There's a survival run on youtube that shows how to keep the rank low enough to clear it without any medal collection.

Link please?
I just started playing Garegga on that last post I made, it's pretty neat [the music and visuals are sexy]. Reading about the scoring and rank system bothers me a bit. Been playing as Golden Bat because I've died least with it.

To be fair, the only scoring systems I've ever really liked are in Dangun Feveron [kill things ASAP for more flashing things, collect all the flashing things, they bounce off the bottom off the screen] and in Mars Matrix [where you can pretty much spawn cubes whenever you need them as long as bullets are on screen and you haven't reflected within the last 5 seconds].