Another Market Research!!!

[nasty_wolverine]

I know this question has been asked before, but the last thread i could find on this forum was from 2006 (linked below)

So what I would like to know is, now that Cave is (maybe) going out of arcade business, What is the market for Shmups like?
In other words, if there is a quality shmup for PC (or Android, IOS, XBLig), like Hellsinker or Crimzon Clover, Will you buy it and how much would you pay for it???

Would you buy it even if its in digital format? Would reconsider if there is a special version which comes on a disc with artwork??

Market Research - 2006
More Market Research - 2006

Edit: I updated the post with the feedback... do tell me if something is off

Code: Select all

Platform                 Minimum       Maximum
PC (with box)	          $5.00        $30.00     - With Soundtrack, Art and Cover
PC (Download only)        $2.50        $10.00     - No one really likes this, but will pay for a good game, DRM free
XBLig                     80 MSP       400 MSP    - Expect 1000 sales in entire lifetime, UK, US and JP market

//Distribution platforms

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Portal          Commission   YearlyFees     Notes
Desura -        30% -        none -         you need to install a client, payment to devs only after $500 on sales
XBlig -         30% -        $99/year -     Xbox360 only
Windows Store - 30% -        $99/year -     for Windows8 only
IndieVania -    0% -         none -         DRM free downloads, maybe dying

The Dreamcast still lives...

[Obiwanshinobi]

The most expensive PC game(s) I bought was Orange Box. While I pay more for sealed console games now and then, I wouldn't for a single PC game, shmup or not. PC games just don't fetch high prices over here; things like HoM&MIII with all expansions on two CDs or one DVD costing peanuts can be still found brand new on shelves, piracy around here is like guns in the US and humble pricing is pretty much your only chance to sell anything at all (the publishers understand it). Huge PC gaming population, though I don't have any numbers to give, oversaturated PC games market.
What I'm trying to say is - there's no "global" PC games market. In some countries asking computer games mags if they could put your game on a cover DVD would be your best bet (not joking; those are the only retail discs where certain "small" games can be found).
I suggest to check where World of Goo sold well on discs.

[Ed Oscuro]

piracy around here is like guns in the US

aaaand staying on topic...

I try not to pay more than $10 for most PC games. If it's a bundle of games (like the three game + all DLC release of the Deus Ex series) I could more easily rationalize $20 (but that's Deus Ex, man!).

Looking to get Mini Ninjas, a Games For Windows Live title, for maybe $3 + something in S&H (hopefully not double that).

As far as the actual genre of Shmups is concerned - there are very few games of quality, to start with, and very few with anything like an acceptable feel I'd be interested in paying money for - lots of titles are very good and yet very focused on one or two things, and are released as freeware. A game that wants to be more than that has a steep climb in competition with those other games. The XYX or whatever it's called release for Neo Geo might be an exception. It's strange when I think about it, but the original (more dodgy) hardware platforms (arcade-only as well) have some draw that playing on the new systems often doesn't. I am definitely not against a competently done game on new platforms.

[Alfred]

I would buy any STG on XBLIG's (Xbox Live Indie Games). I would pay 80 MSP maybe more if it was good and i would want p2p scoreboards, Online multiplayer, In game achievements, Great music. If it had all of that i would pay 400 MSP.

[n0rtygames]

XBLIG STGs these days typically sell 5000 copies or so at 80MSP over their entire lifetime.
Anything above 80MSP is basically inviting financial death.

Games like DecX, S1UP, Prismatic Solid - all very high quality games - enjoyed the luxury of being on the platform extremely early on. Unfortunately, the quality of the majority of titles on XBLIG is a complete joke and this puts a lot of people off. My own game isn't the best quality by any means, but it sure as hell out shines a lot of the crap on the platform. Mind you, that's like comparing a chipped fragment of a small copper nugget with plenty of blemishes to a regurgitated peanut.

Couple that with peoples unrealistic expectations of what a $1 game should deliver and it's basically looking a little grim for shmups.

In short, don't target XBLIG if you're seriously thinking in terms of "market" -- these days, a STG is something you should do out of love for the genre and to better your own coding practises.

Yes, the market is horrible.

[Softdrink 117]

I agree with most of what's been said here.

There are a lot of PC STGs, and most of them are of highly questionable quality. Many are overpriced for the content they deliver, especially if importing is necessary. Crimzon Clover is a big exception, in that it's very much worth the cost. However, one thing that I really like about PC shooters is that they often have a free trial version available; this is a great feature because it lets you experience the gameplay before committing any funds. If a new PC STG was released, especially by a new or comparatively unknown developer, having a playable trial that was representative of the finished product would be a must for me to even consider purchasing it. The same applies for XBL, but almost all XBL releases have a trial version anyways.

As far as price and features:
Anything between about $5-$20 (before shipping) would be reasonable, depending on quality. Digital only, the price bracket drops to $5-$10, unless the gameplay or soundtrack is very compelling. For a packaged release, if there were bonus content-- say, a soundtrack or artbook-- it kind of depends on the quality of the supplemental material. If the soundtrack is good, I'd easily pay $20 for it independent of the game. And these price brackets are in part dependent on the quality of the game overall; if it's a highly desirable title for whatever reason, I'd be willing to pay quite a bit more. Something at the CAVE or Crimzon Clover level, for example, might be reasonable at $40-$60 or more.

[Obiwanshinobi]

You wouldn't compete with doujin wares (not without making yours a collector's item anyway); you'd compete with Hydorah and Warning Forever. At least for my money, you'd need to have something at least as good in store, costing no more than what I paid for boxed World of Goo (can't remember how much exactly and the exact exchange rate back then, but you get the idea).
Two latest sealed console shooters I bought: Geometry Wars: Galaxies and S&P2 (again, I don't wanna pull the prices out of thin air) were priced reasonably (I am not disappointed), but I just expect console games to be more pricey than PC games (and frankly, I'd have GLADLY paid for Excite Truck more than I did; that's how fierce the arcade competition is on that particular platform).
By the way, it's not civilised of me, but I keep frowning upon download-only commercial releases. Internet already got disabled for a while in a certain country, so there is that.

[hermit crab]

Lost Windows in a HD crash so not a PC gamer at all right now, but say you release a Linux version or I get myself a Windows gaming rig by the time the game is out... For a Crimzon Clover quality game I would pay around 30 EUR for a hardcopy (in a proper box and everything) or around 5 EUR for a download.

XBLig umm I've tried to find that messing around on my Xbox but I think it's only for U.S. Live accounts or Live Gold or something? I really need to get there though because those games seem like a really good deal often, so cheap.. I don't see how it could possibly be a profitable platform for professionally developed games. But for a brand new quality title on XBLA I'd be prepared to pay 800 MS Points. The ports of old games that have been released at that price point I have not bothered buying. A hard copy disc release for the Xbox 360 would be much more preferable though.

Not too interested in phone gaming but the Ouya Android device that is coming out might be something I'll buy (and subsequently buy games for).

P.S. The platform I would most prefer the game comes out for is the Dreamcast. (Unless you can figure out how to run unlicensed stuff on the PS2. It's not impossible Datel did it with Action Replay or whatever, just very hard. The DC, however, can run games from normal CD's no problem).

[nasty_wolverine]

I updated the first post with some stats from the discussion, do tell me if something is off...
More feedback will make it more clearer what the market is like

My dream has always been to set up my own little 5-10 man team game studio... Its never been about making money, more about creating games
But dreams dont fill stomachs, so i need know how viable it is. I am planning to stick to retro style games (shmups, run n guns, platformers) but i prefer to make shmups just because i like it the best.
I thinks its better to try and fail, then not to try at all...

Even if its not viable, i ll just make games without a team by myself and release when i can, keeping my day job...

[Alfred]

It's very true that you shouldn't price your XBLIG over 80 MSP if you want lot's of people to buy it. The problem with XBLIG's there are far to many shit games on the marketplace. Shoot 1up sold around 35,000 at 80 MSP (I think) so STG's can be sold.

You only get a eight minute trial on XBLIG's.

Make sure the box art and name are amazing so people will DL the trial.

It's possible your game will sell only 750 -1,500 units on XBLIG at 80 MSP ($1) and Microsoft takes 30%.

Make sure your game is under 150mb.

Maybe team up with some Japanese devs if you want to make a STG.

XBLIG's are only available to: England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Singapore, Spain, Sweden and United states of America.


US, UK, and JP will be your best markets for STG XBLIG's.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I have zero interest in a digital release of anything, which rises slightly to "well, if it's the only option" should it at least be DRM free. I doubt anyone would be able to convince me that it's worth more than £10 of my monies.

I'd absolutely support a physical release on PC or DC though, and have done so. Crimzon Clover would be worth it at 4 times the price. And I've paid retail prices for DC independent releases, rising sharply for limited edition shiny fancy stuff.

DC is probably where the physical market is and anything half competant will likely be able to sell a reasonable print run.

[Obiwanshinobi]

DC is probably where the physical market is and anything half competant will likely be able to sell a reasonable print run.

Sad but true I'm afraid. (On the Wii only freeloading is easy.) Then again, if you aren't making games just yet, going commercial at the start seems risky to say the least. See, freeware is not unlike market in that the competition is fierce. I for one downloaded Hero Core and Kryzta yesterday. Neither won me over, even though the production values and other such qualities were pretty respectable. So they lavished effort to make me just play their games and succeeded... for maybe thirty minutes.

[nasty_wolverine]

To be honest, from where i live, i cannot get on XBLig, but i put it there for completeness sake, heck i cant even get on android market...

If i do release a game, the first one will be a freeware, coz i want to know if people actually do like my game and thinks its fun.

For a commercial release a trial is must [period]

[n0rtygames]

Shoot 1up sold around 35,000 at 80 MSP (I think) so STG's can be sold.

They CAN be sold - but don't forget that Shoot1Up enjoyed being on the contest finalist page in the very very early days of XBLIG when it was a LOT easier to stand out. The quality of games is surely complete toss for the most part, but as people are becoming more skilled and teams are growing - competition is growing. Not insurmountable, but definately growing.

Plus being entirely realistic - for any title - being on the top downloaded page in the face of all the Minecraft-a-likes and Avatar games is really tough.

US, UK, and JP will be your best markets for STG XBLIG's.

Can't disagree there.

Might be worth asking Mommy's Best for some input on marketing strategies and such. He's actually a marketing monster and knows something the rest of us don't. Or better still... get him back on here to talk shop!

If i do release a game, the first one will be a freeware

Dude, why do that to yourself? If your game is good - sell it. If people aren't prepared to support a developer through their baby steps by giving 50p, £1, £2 or some amount that basically equates to a tube of pringles - then those people should eat their own fists the next time they enter in to a discussion about the shmup genre dying out. Devs need support - the only way they can get support is through customers actually buying their games at a price that isn't insulting. XBLIG is a weird one - because of the 'top up' nature of purchasing points. But release a PC game on one of the many indie portals out there and you can set your own price. I bought Snops Attack without trialing it - simply on principal. $3 is really not an amount I'm going to get high and mighty about, even if it completely sucked.. which it did not.

One of the biggest problems for struggling indie developers at the moment is that everyone is too damned scared to charge for their games.

Amnesia: The Dark Descent - £6.99 vs Resident Evil 6 - £24.99

Which one of these was actually a decent survival horror?

[n0rtygames]

I'd absolutely support a physical release on PC or DC though, and have done so. Crimzon Clover would be worth it at 4 times the price. And I've paid retail prices for DC independent releases, rising sharply for limited edition shiny fancy stuff.

Out of interest, as this is something I've considered - if one of us put up a kickstarter or something simply for a physical run of one of our games (on the basis that you have to buy in bulk) -- would you pledge towards something like that? Given that Kickstarter is risk free and you'd basically only end up paying if there was enough community support in a game to make the first physical run happen.

[Kollision]

I would shun download versions because I prefer physical media.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy it on XBLA/XBLIG (I don't game in PCs).
I would definitely support a retail product in Kickstarter, depending on how you disclose it initially.

[nasty_wolverine]

If people aren't prepared to support a developer through their baby steps by giving 50p, £1, £2 or some amount that basically equates to a tube of pringles - then those people should eat their own fists the next time they enter in to a discussion about the shmup genre dying out. Devs need support - the only way they can get support is through customers actually buying their games at a price that isn't insulting.

This. So many times on this board I have seen the discussion on how shmups are dying out and how no new devs are making quality shmups. I wonder how many of them actually check the development section of the forum. There are so many great devs and their WIP games in here. Heck, the MODS should allow devs to put paypal links in their sigs for donations for the amount of freeware and dev tools they shell out.

FEED THE DEVS, KEEP THE SHMUP SPIRIT ALIVE...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is it a challenge?

[nasty_wolverine]

Is it a challenge?

No, a simple request, in a really loud voice...

[system11]

Couple that with peoples unrealistic expectations of what a $1 game should deliver and it's basically looking a little grim for shmups.

This - I can't understand why suddenly people think newly developed games are worth little more than a can of coke. It's just stupid.

[HydrogLox]

I can't understand why suddenly people think newly developed games are worth little more than a can of coke.

The Apple iTunes App Store comes to mind ...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

That XBLIG of Prismatic Solid was a professional developed game indeed. The opening PS title screen is more of a very slick and polished tech demo to show what the 360 is capable in the hands of a talented developer running at a crisp arcade-spec 60fps framerate. With the similarities of the earlier PSX import of iS: internal section and PS, they both have that unmistakeble coolness factor.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Obiwanshinobi]

I can't understand why suddenly people think newly developed games are worth little more than a can of coke. It's just stupid.

We're not living in the nineteen-eighties anymore (good for me). Gaming IS cheaper nowadays and I'm not sure if games development really isn't (development tools surely are). Is it really weird that the consumers' expectations have changed? We are spoilt.

[trap15]

and I'm not sure if games development really isn't (development tools surely are).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Tell me about why there's so much excellent freeware out there if not thanks to the lower development cost (among other things).
While we're at it, why the "Classic mode" of Boulder Dash EX is so lamentably bad compared to the magnificent PC faithful remake? (Instead of having opinions, go play the former just after the latter.) Higher development costs? Really? Boulder Dash EX (the lot) didn't exactly seem like the developer got paid handsomely. There was air of exploitation about it that I don't sense whilst playing Bomber Boy.

[trap15]

Tell me about why there's so much excellent freeware out there if not thanks to the lower development cost (among other things).

There has always been excellent freeware. It's just easier to get exposure, and it's easier to find the development tools (and/or documentation) these days.

PC software has almost literally never required any money for the required development tools. If you want additional dev tools to maybe make things easier or whatever, they may cost money, but they're never required.

As far as consoles go, I'd say the development costs are far greater than they used to be, mostly due to the increased complexity. Now you need to have people who can make 3D models, people who can make textures, people who can do 3D graphics, people who can do shader design, etc. etc. etc. These costs also apply to PC games as well, for the same reasons. Of course, if you're doing 2D games, the costs are probably about the same as they used to be, if not more due to having to deal with the extra complexity of 3D-oriented APIs in order to get the 2D that you want.

While we're at it, why the "Classic mode" of Boulder Dash EX is so lamentably bad compared to the magnificent PC faithful remake? (Instead of having opinions, go play the former just after the latter.) Higher development costs? Really? Boulder Dash EX (the lot) didn't exactly seem like the developer got paid handsomely. There was air of exploitation about it that I don't sense whilst playing Bomber Boy.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That sounds like a per-case thing. I don't even know what point you're trying to make with this paragraph...

[Obiwanshinobi]

I have no idea what you're talking about. That sounds like a per-case thing. I don't even know what point you're trying to make with this paragraph...

I told you to go play both.

[trap15]

I'm not going to go play two games that I don't even care to play just to try to understand what you said, knowing that even if I do I won't understand it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What I said was "go play both".

[nasty_wolverine]

We're not living in the nineteen-eighties anymore (good for me). Gaming IS cheaper nowadays and I'm not sure if games development really isn't (development tools surely are). Is it really weird that the consumers' expectations have changed? We are spoilt.

Yes you are right, most game development tools can be had for free, like MSVC++/# express or GCC + KDevelop with libraries like SDL or GLFW, to help with OpenGL or Directx... even a few 3D engines are free to use...
But you know whats not free, the Devs, the Artists and the Musicians time... time they could have been holding down a day job instead of making a game for you... time they could have just spent doing whatever they would have felt like, but they chose to make a game...