Good Place to Start?

[Bananamatic]

Level three of Futari Black Label is definitely a typical Cave wall

"special"

[Special World]

Level three of Futari Black Label is definitely a typical Cave wall

"special"

"banana"

[EmperorIng]

When I first started playing the genre, I didn't give much mind to finishing the game in one-credit - I just wanted to clear the game. I felt rather proud that I managed difficult, old-style games like Darius Gaiden and RayForce in 7-8 credits.

I wouldn't worry too much at the beginning about immediately going for 1-Credit-Clears just starting out in the genre.

Any game just takes a good deal of practice.

Jump-into-the-genre games (note: a number of these games or their equivalent can be found on MAME):

Genesis:
Thunder Force 3
Thunder Force 4
Twinkle Tale
Gley Lancer
M.U.S.H.A.

SNES:
BioMetal
Axelay
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce
U.N. Squadron

Saturn:
Darius Gaiden
RayForce / Galactic Attack (you knew I'd say these)
Gunbird
Soukyogurentai / Terra Diver

PS1:
G-Darius
Thunder Force V: Perfect System
Einhander
RayStorm OR RayCrisis
R-Type Delta

After this generation it's a bit more tricky, as less and less games are localized, and you have to spend more on imports. Plus, the emulation is harder (excepting the Dreamcast). Though I will say Raiden IV all the way.

But these games, from my experience offer a fair amount of challenge, but being simple enough to jump into and get immersed in the whole field of bullet shootin' and bullet dodgin'. They're also some of the few games I've been able to get non-shmuppers into (at least Sat/PS1 stuff). The plus is that the emulation of Genesis and SNES is easy as pie, so that's an easy place to start.

[Obscura]

Something that people here are likely to recommend that I don't agree with:
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label: Yeah, it's relatively easy for a Cave game, but the difficulty curve is dumb as hell. The third stage is complete nightmare of a level, and literally harder than the entire rest of the game combined.

That could be said of half of Cave's games. The third level is always a wall, and then level four eases off a good bit, and then level five brings back the hurt. Level three of Futari Black Label is definitely a typical Cave wall, but stage five is definitely harder because of the last boss.

I can't name another Cave game where stage three is harder than stage 4, with the possible exception of Mushihimesama- and even in that game, it's not by much.

DDP, DOJ, Ketsui, Espgaluda, and Espgaluda 2 all have fourth stages harder than their third stages.

Also, Larsa does not make stage 5 harder than stage 3. You might lose more lives in stage 5 because of her, but you're not going to fail there very often, unless you've already completely screwed the credit by 4-missing stage 3 or something.

[Special World]

You might be right - stage 4 may typically be harder than stage 3, but it certainly feels like stage 3 is hardest in most Cave games, because that's where they first bring the hurt. If I beat stage 3 of a Cave game, I know stage 4 won't take me long to conquer.

But "you might lose more lives in stage 5" is a pretty good rubric for deciding whether or not stage 5 is harder than stage 3. I absolutely lose more lives in stage 5. Now that I've played it a good amount, the only hard part of stage 3 is the boss, which requires a bomb or two. For me, Larsa requires two whole stocks worth of bombs. She's tough.

Even if it is a bit weird, I think it's a good difficulty curve. It's nice having a breather after stage three before reaching the craziness of stage five. In addition, if you're playing for score the rank will keep ratcheting up and up, and I'm fairly certain the reason stage 4 is so much easier for me is because I bomb and die in stage 3, reducing the overall counter and plummeting the rank.

Futari BL's definitely one of Cave's easiest clears, no doubt in my mind. Only the Deathsmiles games are easier, and maybe DFK if you count bomb and strong, which feels like a slight cop-out to me. In my personal experience at least, the proof is apparent: Futari BL Original, Deathsmiles low rank, and Deathsmiles IIX low rank are my only Cave 1CCs. I can barely manage to 1CC even later *stages* in tougher Cave games, like DOJ and Ketsui.

Of course, if we're talking the entire shooter genre, any Cave game isn't likely to be on the easier side, which is why I also recommended a bunch of Turbografx-16 shooters. Imo those and Eschatos are the best easy shooters around.

[Obscura]

I almost feel like I need to distinguish between Larsa and the rest of Futari BL stage 5.

Larsa, you'll probably lose a lot of lives, but as far as I can tell, unless you're like Sapz or something, she's kind of a "did you carry enough resources in?" check. And, unless you had a disastrous stage 3, the answer is probably "yes".

The rest of stage 5 should be easy to, at absolute most, 1-miss- and probably not even that.

I think it's telling that the first time I ever managed a 1-miss of stage 3, I got the clear, despite a stupid death in stage 2.

Also, if you want a game where stage 3 will be no problem but stage 4 will make you despair, try Ketsui. Aside from the boss, that game's third stage is pretty much a joke, but the fourth stage is insanity.

[Special World]

I could just as easily do a resource check for Stage 3. Do I have two lives? Probably gonna make it. You're saying "well, as long as you have 4 lives, Larsa's not hard." Yeah, of course she's not hard if you've stockpiled lives and bombs. That's just common sense.

And like I said, dying or bombing in stage 3 ratchets down the rank like a motherfucker. Playing for score makes BL Original a lot harder, as you've got quick shots and you have to press close to all sorts of enemies. If you've got a massive overall counter and a stage counter of 9999, I'm sure levels 4 and 5 can be real bastards.

Stage three of Ketsui is definitely harder than stage 3 of FBL Original, if that's a question. They're actually pretty similar imo, except Ketsui has that bastard ship and that bastard boss. I guess FBL stage 3 is more like Ketsui stage 2, as I find those helicopters and those rolypoly pillbugs to be somewhat similar with their multi-pronged aimed shots.

Anyways. I'm good on this disagreement. Different strokes.

[Obscura]

FBL stage 3 isn't just a "resource check" though, because even after clearing the game, if I go back to it for some stupid reason, I find that I routinely game over in that stage after entering with 4 lives.

That stage is seriously batshit nuts.

Aside from the bosses, Ketsui stage 3 is a joke and actually easier than the second stage. There are exactly three non-boss enemies in the stage that don't just pixel-aim their shots, and one of those is tackled when you still have the start-of-stage invulnerability. Ignore the weird accelerations, and stream accordingly. Many of the large enemies appear half-way down the screen, conveniently in lock-on range, to make things even easier.

[EmperorIng]

You guys will scare away all the new players with your Cave flimmer-flam. Listen to yourselves.
Taito 4ever

Things like tap-dodging mean very little to me (so I guess maybe if there's an idiot's guide to basic stuff like that, it might be a useful link), unless it's where you tap back and forth to get through the checkerboard-y patterns, or maybe to dodge when a boss shoots like a laser beam at you and then you don't want to corner yourself so you just move a little.

I'll just keep working on my cave games (should I be playing a specific version of DDP?) and whatever random stuff catches my fancy in the meantime. I'll definitely try anything I can get to run on MAME, and in December I can afford anything I want on NA XBLA.

To the full extent of the jam is totally my favorite phrase this month.


Is the hitbox smaller in Batsugun Special? Because I just got well into stage 4 before my first miss, wow. Well that and I changed to the girl.

Thanks a lot though, everyone.

The Full Extent of the Jam is a personal favorite phrase of mine, as well.

Then again, being a lover of the Darius series, I use "What a matter!" far more in everyday speech, ha ha.

As far as XBLA goes, Strania: The Stella Machina might be a fun one to pick up: very sleek and stylish, non-danmaku/bullet curtain patterns, jammin' soundtrack by Yasuhise Wanatabe (alias .YACK), and lots of environmental stages and hazards to navigate (I like it when it's the stage that sometimes needs contending-with instead of lots of enemies, though opinions differ). There's also Ikaruga, but that's pretty different than your standard Cave game. There's also Radiant Silvergun, but I haven't played that nor can I comment on it.

A lot of the older Cave games are just too expensive to be buying in physical form, so really, your MAME running DonPachi, DoDonPachi, and DoDonPachi DaiOuJou (the only three Cave games I like, ha), and, if you like other Cave outings, Progear, Dangun Feveron, ESPRade, ESPGaluda, etc should be more than sufficient. I'd buy myself Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Black Label (a mouthful), but I don't have a 360. If you have a Wii, there's always the Milestone Shooting Collection 2, and Ikaruga, and Robotron 2084 (not quite a shmup).

For general skill-building, i usually look to the games of the 90s-early00s, but that's me.

[KAI]

Correction, Strania was composed by Keishi Yonao.


I'm a nerd...

[EmperorIng]

My bad, I thought .YACK composed it. It's still a good OST.

[To Far Away Times]

Larisa can be comfortably beaten with 3 or 4 bombs in black label. And since it's the end of the game, you'll be more likely to spend those resources. Cheesing bombs at the half way point in the game though, that's a little bit harder to do.

[KAI]

Larisa


Milestone games are a good choice.

[EmperorIng]

although my friends/roomies like to play Chaos Field as a curiosity, it's hardly a game I'd call beginner-friendly!

[Special World]

although my friends/roomies like to play Chaos Field as a curiosity, it's hardly a game I'd call beginner-friendly!

It's also hardly what I'd call enjoyable. Blegh.

[chum]

I just kinda stumbled into hardcore shmups last week and I'm not sure if I'm lost.

What's a good game to start with to stop being crap at shmups? I've been playing DDP and Batsugun a lot this past week and now I can get to the third level of each without getting shot but then I just explode halfway through or in the first few seconds of the boss and can't get any further. I'm not sure if I see myself creeping up on my high score and it makes me make stupid decisions so that I make sure I top it, or if I'm just supposed to be taking this long.

Is there anything at a less manic pace (but faster than Gradius) that might better ease me out of low-level play?

In order to "stop being crap at shmups" (although, most "good" players do seem to consider themselves "crap") you have to put in effort. First of all It's important to consider difficulty components of these games. Patterns and shots will be aimed, or fixed, or random. It's important to be able to recognize all of these and have an idea of what to do in any given situation. Get used to the fact that you will have to play the same game a lot in order to be in any good at it.

DDP and Batsugun both strike me as decent games for beginners. If the problem is that they're too hard/fast-paced you might want to try some of the games listed by EmperorIng, but do keep in mind that something being hard is exactly what you want, you can't get better if the game doesn't force you to improve.

My main recommendation is Shoot the Bullet, as "pace" is not an issue with that game, and as I consider it easily one of the best shmups for building skill, since it gives a very nice variety of patterns for learning (aimed, fixed, and random) 9-6 being an especially good example of a great pattern to play for building dodging skills.

[Kollision]

choose whatever shmup
play it until your performance starts to suffer (could be half an hour, 2 hours, it depends)
shut it down
get back the next day
repeat (with the same shmup, obviously)


it works, seriously

[shmuppyLove]

I feel like Espgaluda stage 3 is definitely harder than stage 4. Soooo long, and the 2nd half is just wave after wave of alternating popcorn swarms and medium-sized enemies and turrets.

At least the extend is there.

[exquisite_torture]

Tiger Heli

[KAI]

it works, seriously

You kidding right?
Are you implying that practice makes the master?
NONSENSE!! RIDICULOUS!!

[MR_Soren]

I'd like to second Deathsmiles as a good game to start with. It is fairly inexpensive for 360, includes plenty of game modes, and it's relatively easy. I'd play Arcade or 360 mode, and save the others for another time. The other modes play differently enough that you'd have to re-learn a lot of things if you keep switching back and forth.

More importantly, pick a game you enjoy and play at least a credit or two each day. Usually more at first as your games are shorter and you're still learning fast, but you can cut back after you get comfortable with the game.

[trap15]

Tiger Heli

Just spat out my drink. Bravo sir!

[m0ng00se]

progress is happening in batsugun. once i hit level 3 gun I have a hard time seeing what's flying at my head, though.

i can't get 1943 to run in MAME, and I think I've got a key converter for Touhou now.

I've actually played Tiger Heli. It's probably the reason I've progressed so quickly.

There's a copy of Akai Katana hiding in my store for 30 bucks, do I want that when I have money?

[KAI]

do I want that when I have money?

Some people have the chance of buying a Cave game on a store and they doubt about it. WHY!?!?!?!

[jepjepjep]

progress is happening in batsugun. once i hit level 3 gun I have a hard time seeing what's flying at my head, though.

i can't get 1943 to run in MAME, and I think I've got a key converter for Touhou now.

I've actually played Tiger Heli. It's probably the reason I've progressed so quickly.

There's a copy of Akai Katana hiding in my store for 30 bucks, do I want that when I have money?

Batsugun is a great place to start. Just keep at it if you're having fun. I would play Special version if you're looking for an easier 1-all.

[Softdrink 117]

There's a copy of Akai Katana hiding in my store for 30 bucks, do I want that when I have money?

Probably. Akai Katana is relatively straightforward, and with a decent amount of practice you'll probably clear it pretty quickly. I've been playing it a lot over the last couple days; I'm getting quite close to a clear with only a few hours sunk into it. However, one thing to keep in mind is that AK's main mechanics rely on bullet canceling and deflection. It thus has less emphasis on raw dodging than some other shmups (though there's still plenty of it).

EDIT: Just got the 1CC, very satisfying.

At $30 it's hard to think of a reason why it wouldn't be a good buy, unless you've already played it and don't like the game.

As far as general recommendations go, Dodonpachi and Batsugun are both great games. If you're enjoying what you're playing now, and you're able to practice and progress, you're probably fine overall. The largest factor in how well you can perform at these games is experience, both with the specific title and the genre as a whole.

[Eno]

For fast survival skill building, RRootage and Warning Forever all day everyday until you like it(or finish every stage on every mode/every boss). (I myself should take my advice and get back to play them)

[R79]

eBay > Jap Saturn > Darius Gaiden or Layer Section > $$$

If you have an Xbox 360, you can download stuff like Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun onto it for a reasonable amount of Microsoft Points.

Do you like vertical or horizontal scrolling shooters? Different game companies and developers were known in the past for their unique twists on the genre. If you go back to the Mega Drive era (Genesis in the USA), you can hear amazing sound and see slower paced gameplay on the games made by TecnoSoft for example.
Around the mid 90s, these types of games began to become very intense. Post 90s, you have the 3d games as well, like the Shikigami no Shiro series on PS2, or Zero Gunner 2 on Dreamcast (both still solid platforms for STGs if you have the wonga to shell out).

From a personal POV, I would strongly recommend Gunbird 2, for it's excellent 2d art, and fairly straightforward mechanics.

[m0ng00se]

do I want that when I have money?

Some people have the chance of buying a Cave game on a store and they doubt about it. WHY!?!?!?!

I dunno, maybe it's weird or something? Or available really cheap on Amazon. I'll probably snag it when I can afford it. I think we have Deathsmiles 2 as well, but that was 60 bucks last I checked, which is kind of steep for a shmup for someone in my financial position, especially when according to this thread there's so very very much I can play for so much less.

eBay > Jap Saturn > Darius Gaiden or Layer Section > $$$

If you have an Xbox 360, you can download stuff like Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun onto it for a reasonable amount of Microsoft Points.

Do you like vertical or horizontal scrolling shooters? Different game companies and developers were known in the past for their unique twists on the genre. If you go back to the Mega Drive era (Genesis in the USA), you can hear amazing sound and see slower paced gameplay on the games made by TecnoSoft for example.
Around the mid 90s, these types of games began to become very intense. Post 90s, you have the 3d games as well, like the Shikigami no Shiro series on PS2, or Zero Gunner 2 on Dreamcast (both still solid platforms for STGs if you have the wonga to shell out).

From a personal POV, I would strongly recommend Gunbird 2, for it's excellent 2d art, and fairly straightforward mechanics.

I'm prioritizing Ikaruga slightly behind Guilty Gear but I think I can get both on one points card, which is the first thing I'm buying on payday.
Outside of Progear I can't seem to wrap my head around dodging in horizontal shooters (and I can't shoot in progear), so I prefer vert scrolling.

I've got a really solid base of games I'm going to sink time into (probably just gonna bop around until I can get the 1-all in something), so I should be basically set on that front for like a year. A dude at the retro game store gave me a list of random stuff, too. I can find time to sink at least a credit or two a day between one thing or another.

For like, dodging techniques, is there a resource or guide or something? For example, on the stage 2 boss in Batsugun when it fires the aimed machine gun at you, I keep cornering myself between a wall of bullets and an army of bogeys, using 2 or 3 bombs in a fight where I'm pretty sure I shouldn't need any. I wait until the bullets are close, then I shift over a little bit until I'm out of space or he's out of bullets, but the rest of the pattern means I'm moving a little farther than I want to to avoid getting shot and the gun lasts long enough that I often hit the wall regardless.

[KAI]

I'm prioritizing Ikaruga slightly behind Guilty Gear

Buy Guilty Gear, leave this forum and live a normal life as a fighting game player, seriously ;P