A friendly reminder: Please vote.

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antron
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by antron »

xbl0x180 wrote: Not if it means breaking laws. It's not morally right to tell one group of people they have to abide by the law and others to ignore them.
This may come as a surprise to you, but they are actually not breaking any laws:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/g ... index.html
Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the majority, joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and three other justices, stated: "As a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States."
So please stop calling them "illegal", or claiming that they are breaking any law. They are "removable", and exclusively at the discretion of the federal government.
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BryanM
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by BryanM »

Wonderfully racist and stupid.

"The law says I have to put the Jewy in the furnace. I don't wanna be a rulebreaker!! It's teh law making me racist, not meh."

As someone who actually attended a central valley school and doesn't hate brown people as woman-stealing, job-taking machines of the devil, yeah they're pretty bad. The entire region has an aura of despair floating around it; like all hope is dead. Without goals, dreams or purpose to strive for, what's the point really. Many of the teachers give off the vibe they want to kill themselves. I think that was more the town's fault than the school's really tho.

But that's hardly any different from any other poor school. And it horrifies me that the poverty schools in Texas are much, much worse than the place I went to. There definitely should be metric-based reform (why aren't public schools run more like a college and why aren't colleges more accessible like public schools and why aren't they consolidated credit so it's not like public school is completely meaningless to your life - no reason these things can't be done and no reason a bright kid in a rural area has to wait for his early teens to learn Algebra), but fuck if there's any will to do it.

So it's like that song from Family Guy. "High school, is such a serious thing. These problems matter."

And anyone who thinks employers are going to pay $20 an hour, the real price of picking fruit and rolling around in pesticides that slash around a decade off your life expectancy, is crazy. The outsourcing is just an intermediary step to full automation; already the government subsidizes those crops that are grown and harvested by machine.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by BulletMagnet »

Pardon the pivot, but as concerns the whole "businesses are firing people because Obama got re-elected" thing, this clip should say most everything that needs saying in regards to both the situation at large and the right's continued, willful intransigence in spite of it.
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Domino
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Domino »

antron wrote:So please stop calling them "illegal", or claiming that they are breaking any law. They are "removable", and exclusively at the discretion of the federal government.
Well if they broke the law by coming to the US illegally, they are illegal and breaking the law. Simple as that. Usually the biggest supporters of tough immigration laws are legal immigrants.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The Republican Tears tumblr continues to be surreal: Don't do business with "them," close your bank accounts, hope Texas secedes... :arrow:
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antron
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by antron »

Domino wrote:
antron wrote:So please stop calling them "illegal", or claiming that they are breaking any law. They are "removable", and exclusively at the discretion of the federal government.
Well if they broke the law by coming to the US illegally, they are illegal and breaking the law. Simple as that. Usually the biggest supporters of tough immigration laws are legal immigrants.
That's just it. It is not against US law to come into the United States without permission, as strange as that may sound. There is never a criminal trial for doing such a thing, and there are no punishments.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Udderdude »

antron wrote:
Domino wrote:
antron wrote:So please stop calling them "illegal", or claiming that they are breaking any law. They are "removable", and exclusively at the discretion of the federal government.
Well if they broke the law by coming to the US illegally, they are illegal and breaking the law. Simple as that. Usually the biggest supporters of tough immigration laws are legal immigrants.
That's just it. It is not against US law to come into the United States without permission, as strange as that may sound. There is never a criminal trial for doing such a thing, and there are no punishments.
Yeah, the term "Illegal immigrant" is pretty misleading. :(
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antron
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by antron »

The recent supreme court decision on a state's right to treat them as criminals led to much hilarity. Arizona Governor Jan Brewer celebrated that morning because it upheld her right to check someone's immigration status if being held under suspicion for an actual crime. That afternoon Obama disconnected Arizona from the federal database that police use to check such a thing. That evening she was back on TV and furious.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The reason they get called "illegal" is that they "aren't legal" in one relevant sense.

It's sort of like the difference between "immoral" and "non-moral:" A chair isn't moral, because by itself it can't be moral or have any property of being moral. However, you don't say that it is moral or immoral - it's non-moral. But like that, a person by themselves can't be "illegal" - the idea of a person being illegal is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, even for non-citizen aliens, and it probably isn't intended by people who use the word, either.

The phrase "non-legal" would probably be interpreted much the same way as "illegal" is, though, so that probably wouldn't help much. It also doesn't make clear in what sense they lack legal status. It is clear that they do have some legal status - just not the relevant legal status of being documented and having a status of permanent residence. Removable or deportable are interesting terms which seem to capture the relevant points, so it seems alright to me.

p.s. "Everything I like is illegal, immoral, or fattening"
antron wrote:The recent supreme court decision on a state's right to treat them as criminals led to much hilarity. Arizona Governor Jan Brewer celebrated that morning because it upheld her right to check someone's immigration status if being held under suspicion for an actual crime. That afternoon Obama disconnected Arizona from the federal database that police use to check such a thing. That evening she was back on TV and furious.
I know there is more going on than that, but it's been a while and I've forgotten some of the relevant details. It seems to me that there isn't a problem with checking a person's immigration status if they are being held under suspicion of an actual crime. I know the argument is out there that people will get pulled off the streets for this end, but police already abuse minor traffic violations as a pretext to stop a vehicle and then use that proximity to engage in "probable cause" searches. Nobody seems to have a solution for that, and nobody wants to revoke that right because it would be ridiculous to forbid police from a probable cause search merely because they accidentally bumped into a perp in some other context. I guess the difference must be that probable cause searches allow police to intercept an actual crime, whereas an immigration check does nothing of the sort because merely being a removable alien in the country is not a crime.
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antron
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by antron »

yeah, you could probably even catch Obama saying something like "path to legal status", which would imply that they are currently illegal, or non-legal, as you say.

The greater point is that they are not criminals.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Specineff »

Domino wrote:
antron wrote:So please stop calling them "illegal", or claiming that they are breaking any law. They are "removable", and exclusively at the discretion of the federal government.
Well if they broke the law by coming to the US illegally, they are illegal and breaking the law. Simple as that. Usually the biggest supporters of tough immigration laws are legal immigrants.
Try doing things the legal way, getting approved, and still be waiting for their papers ELEVEN years after everything has been said and done, like a relative of mine is. If he leaves the country, he has to wait another 10 years before his case is even reconsidered. He has to stay illegally in the country if he wants to do things by the book.

No, I am not defending them. Just pointing out that the system is broken and needs to be fixed.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ex-Cyber »

Also, it's worth noting that the wait and bullshit is not equal for everyone, and many of those disparities are quite transparently based on political convenience.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Hagane »

I'm sure skin color factors in the amount of time needed, too.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

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Couldn't have happened to a nicer scumbag. http://www.businessinsider.com/karl-rov ... ns-2012-11
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by BulletMagnet »

Two things from that article:
For social conservatives, Rove's treason began long before election day, when the Fox News contributor led the party's tar-and-feathering of Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin, who came under fire for his now infamous "legitimate rape" comments. The party's perceived betrayal of Akin confirmed what many grassroots conservative activists had long suspected: That the Republican Establishment was willing to throw the base under the bus to serve the interests of deep-pocketed donors.
Once again, for anyone who thinks that liberals haven't "reached out" enough: this is the sort of blind ideological fever we're up against. A guy gets up on a podium and says that any woman who gets pregnant from a rape must have wanted it, and everyone's supposed to just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, still gotta stick to my guy." This is, as the article puts it, the base. ANY criticism of ANYthing that ANY conservative does under ANY circumstances is treason. Liberals make dumb excuses for their own on occasion, but sorry, not like this.
Republicans we spoke to this week voiced a near-universal disgust with the national Republican Party leaders and Washington political class, who are seen as having put their personal financial interest above winning the election.
Putting one's own financial interest above everything else is pretty much the entire point of being a modern conservative; could it be that somebody on the other side is beginning to doubt the notion that everybody being the biggest, most unapologetically selfish bastards they can be is the only "fair" way to ensure that justice is done in society?

Nah.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Wow, Rove looks bloated as hell in that picture.

I almost have to say I hope he hangs on, considering what the article would have us believe is the alternative...but eh, better let the GOP shake itself out. Probably a "less than amicable" split is in order.
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lol
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BryanM
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by BryanM »

Yeah, it helps if you like, place your ads early and get the ad for 1/6th the price. Maher was really crowing about his $1 million defining R-Man early.

Obama ads were just way stronger too, like the one on Romney's tax plan: "He pays less, you pay more."

Channel Romney.
Channel Obama.
The "He's all three" lady for those who've missed it.

And they just killed it on the ground. Called the fuck out of anyone who wasn't a white male over 40 or a white married female over 40 and tried to get them to vote, which is a respectable number of people. Took thousands of surveys a day to see what people cared about.

Just a great accomplishment for Science. I hope the machine's still there for the next guy, because if Kerry or Gore had this beast under them, it wouldn't have been a contest.

Also. I watched Biden's "put you back in chains" speech, and that man has a pretty fucking high charisma stat.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by GaijinPunch »

antron wrote: And Obamacare is affecting me in seemingly negative ways as well. I am in healthcare, and today they announced that many of our services will be receiving a 7% reduction in medicare reimbursement. The budget has been frozen. Time to trim the fat.
Is this a good time to throw out the "nobody is immune to downsizing" argument? I've gone through the most brutal 4 years of my career, monetarily. I didn't fuck anyone out of their house, and the group I'm in has always turned a profit and we only do it with private funds. Shit just happens.
Domino wrote:Usually the biggest supporters of tough immigration laws are legal immigrants.
Or people that realize we are a nation of immigrants and don't want to be such hypocrites.
I'm sure skin color factors in the amount of time needed, too.
I have a J-colleague whom after working for 5 years in the US on a very nice, taxable salary, waited 3 years. In limbo, for 3 years. Couldn't leave the whole time.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by mesh control »

GaijinPunch wrote:Is this a good time to throw out the "nobody is immune to downsizing" argument? Shit just happens.

"But it didn't used to be that way."
lol
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ex-Cyber »

I'd say "unbelievable", but that would be a lie.
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BryanM wrote:Also. I watched Biden's "put you back in chains" speech, and that man has a pretty fucking high charisma stat.
Makes you wonder who the 2016 candidate might be.

There are actually some not terrible Republican candidates out there - unfortunately Jon Huntsman didn't do very well so it remains to be seen if he could be a candidate again. He would be the best choice out of the 2011 primary contenders.
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antron
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by antron »

GaijinPunch wrote:
antron wrote: And Obamacare is affecting me in seemingly negative ways as well. I am in healthcare, and today they announced that many of our services will be receiving a 7% reduction in medicare reimbursement. The budget has been frozen. Time to trim the fat.
Is this a good time to throw out the "nobody is immune to downsizing" argument? I've gone through the most brutal 4 years of my career, monetarily. I didn't fuck anyone out of their house, and the group I'm in has always turned a profit and we only do it with private funds. Shit just happens.
oh, absolutely. The government has been overpaying for decades, and this reduction is a critical part of the long term solvency of medicare. There is a reason why Obamacare is expected to save the government 1 trillion dollars in end.
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BryanM
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Re: A friendly reminder: Please vote.

Post by BryanM »

Ed Oscuro wrote:unfortunately Jon Huntsman didn't do very well so it remains to be seen if he could be a candidate again.
I don't think he does; he too often opens his mouth and sane rational-sounding things come out. That's on top of him being a pariah now.

To say Republicans have it rough right now is an understatement. They can do nothing to upset the applecart of the crazy people who select them; if Boehner caved on taxes for millionaires, he'd be gone in 2 years. Eviscerated and buried in the primary. If he continues just being a dick to everyone in general, he might have a few more years in his career.

There really isn't anything they can do on any front. No rebranding, no pandering, no cooperation. They're just fucked.

Remember those times when John McCain had to be pro-torture? Yeah..
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