World War III

[Obiwanshinobi]

I saw democracy at work in 2007. Felt like freedom. Truly a "fuck yeah!" moment.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Some people are fed up with their poverty and petrified authorities. Those people reach for freedoms that are not out of this world (exist in its other parts). The people who were given those freedoms at birth, instead of helping them out, are in fear of the stagnate world order getting ruined.

I still don`t get it. How is the '68 political crisis in Czechoslovakia related to the civil unrest in the Middle East today, the rise of neo-Nazis in Greece and to whatever is going on in contemporary China? Is it really too much to ask of you to try and articulate your position in a way that others could understand?

Such as freedom to replace the people at power peacefully with some other people now and then.

Oh, yeah. Being able to choose a new figurehead every now and then is really important. Such "freedoms" are not worth wiping your ass with.

[Skykid]

Such as freedom to replace the people at power peacefully with some other people now and then.

Oh, yeah. Being able to choose a new figurehead every now and then is really important. Such "freedoms" are not worth wiping your ass with.

^ Precisely.

[Obiwanshinobi]

When you're done telling Chinese people what is good about their country, try to find someplace without democracy where you'd like to live.

Is it really too much to ask of you to try and articulate your position in a way that others could understand?

Frankly, the whole internetful of dudes quoting each other to let me know just how little they understand what I'm trying to say is not enough to convince me at the moment.

[Skykid]

When you're done telling Chinese people what is good about their country, try to find someplace without democracy where you'd like to live.

You seem to have a real hang-up about Chinese people not having democracy. You do realise your perception of democracy is an ideological one, that there is no real democracy in the same way there has never been real Marxism? Therefore it's all relative, it just comes down to how well/poorly a country is governed.

Is it really too much to ask of you to try and articulate your position in a way that others could understand?

Frankly, the whole internetful of dudes quoting each other to let me know just how little they understand what I'm trying to say is not enough to convince me at the moment.

...Not enough to convince you that when you make a post you should attempt to put it into a form that can be understood and engaged with?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Not enough to convince me you're being honest.

Therefore it's all relative, it just comes down to how well/poorly a country is governed.

Try to convince me that there are well governed countries devoid of mutual trust between authorities and the people.

[Skykid]

Not enough to convince me you're being honest.

Honest about what? You've lost me man, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

Therefore it's all relative, it just comes down to how well/poorly a country is governed.

Try to convince me that there are well governed countries devoid of mutual trust between authorities and the people.

Why would I try to convince you of that? You realise when someone writes 'well/poorly', it suggests there are two sides to the coin? Although I'm unconvinced any government does their job particularly well. Corruption is strong at the top.

[Obiwanshinobi]

You can tell the trust is mutual when people bitch about the government out loud. We trust they have more urgent matters to take care of than our potty mouth, they hope we won't slit their throats. You'd be surprised how much effort scum at power puts into controlling what people talk. There's a reason why "glasnost" isn't a word in countries rich in trust.

As for being honest, here comes my shot at it.
You patting one another on the back is what's wrong with manbabies today. I accuse you lads of trying to escape from Reality™. While he coming from Russia and talking shit about democracy (knowledge my arse) is excusable somewhat (post-Soviet people, facing the lamentable outcome of everything their country came through, must be a tad bewildered), you just sound like you want holidays in the sun and choose to "hope" China came up with better means to tame the beast crowd is than democracy (I beg to differ).
Maybe it's my fledgling midlife crisis talking, but the thought my generation is weak sauce like that makes me wanna cry a river. I don't think we'll write history.

[Skykid]

You can tell the trust is mutual when people bitch about the government out loud. We trust they have more urgent matters to take care of than our potty mouth, they hope we won't slit their throats. You'd be surprised how much effort scum at power puts into controlling what people talk. There's a reason why "glasnost" isn't a word in countries rich in trust.

As for being honest, here comes my shot at it.
You patting one another on the back is what's wrong with manbabies today. I accuse you lads of trying to escape from Reality™. While he coming from Russia and talking shit about democracy (knowledge my arse) is excusable somewhat (post-Soviet people, facing the lamentable outcome of everything their country came through, must be a tad bewildered), you just sound like you want holidays in the sun and choose to "hope" China came up with better means to tame the beast crowd is than democracy (I beg to differ).
Maybe it's my fledgling midlife crisis talking, but the thought my generation is weak sauce like that makes me wanna cry a river. I don't think we'll write history.

What I think you're trying to say is: Jonathan Ingram can't talk shit about democracy because he comes from Russia, where the government is so corrupt it's not a democracy, and I can't identify any problems with Chinese government policy because I have optimism regarding the country's long-term development?

Have you read and digested Jonathan Ingram and Randorama's significantly educated and in-depth contributions during this thread? Because I'm still not sure how you seem to be back at square one empty handed.

You seem to be living in a closeted, single layer mindset of black and white rather than a colour spectrum.
Governments have always been corrupt, to different degrees. Democracies like the UK and US are corrupt to the core, owned by Banking institutions - the interests of the common man are secondary to the agendas of the very rich.

What you're talking about is a multi-faceted issue. There isn't a single note answer. You might want Chinese people to get up in the morning and cry the CCP's failings from their windows, but on the other hand they might not want to. If you don't mind my saying so, your perceptions and wishes regarding these complex issues seem to be lacking in Reality™.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Your alleged "optimism" seems unfounded to the point of being wishful thinking. I don't think Chinese government shares it... Just a hunch I have.

[Ed Oscuro]

Meanwhile in Greece...

It's a disgrace that nobody over here was willing to touch the Eurozone Crisis during the debates, but the bigger problem may well be the destruction of confidence. People in "normal times" like to talk about "investor confidence" but that won't save you if the people rise up.

About China - the snippets of translation and commentary (literally a few sentences) from today's Chinese Party Congress raise some interesting issues.
- Hu Jintao warned party leaders against corruption
- but the guys who were in power the 10 years before Hu are muscling in; Xi Jinping might not have sufficient control over the government as a result

Perhaps the most telling thing, which a Google search reveals has been a recurring refrain since 2010 at least, is that Hu vowed China would never adopt Western models of governance. In his translated phrase: "'We should place high importance on systemic building, give full play to the strength of the socialist political system and draw on the political achievements of other societies. But we will never copy a Western political system,' [Hu] said." No doubt China would like to stress the "patient" nature of their system, but I'm not sure their public would appreciate that description. Regardless, it's almost an academic matter if you view it in this way.

I believe the biggest problem is that China's leadership is resolved to remain an opaque body, and while there may be benefits, it seems that the potential for devastating corruption and collusion mixes with the 10-year cycle of various clans into and out of the ascendancy, presents the possibility of severe and unavoidable problems. The people who pay the high price are just as likely to be the political mid-bosses who lose their political cover by accidents, made into scapegoats to assuage the other people, as they are to be people with nominal control over a situation that blows up into a national scandal (like the tainted milk scandal). This loser-loses-all possibility leads in turn to a likelihood of frantic viciousness given the high stakes of the race, but the means by which the various officials scramble to protect themselves tend towards further tying themselves into their group - rather than the more obviously useful and stable system of shining a light on problems before they fester. I don't think the system is sustainable in its current form given these potentials. Today's political commentator (from the BBC I think) described it as not unlike warring Mafia families, so tightly nested are the cliques and the clans of the government.

[Skykid]

Your alleged "optimism" seems unfounded to the point of being wishful thinking. I don't think Chinese government shares it... Just a hunch I have.

Why 'alleged'?

Well thanks for getting involved in your own thread dude, been insightful talking with you.

It's a disgrace that nobody over here was willing to touch the Eurozone Crisis during the debates, but the bigger problem may well be the destruction of confidence. People in "normal times" like to talk about "investor confidence" but that won't save you if the people rise up.

About China - the snippets of translation and commentary (literally a few sentences) from today's Chinese Party Congress raise some interesting issues.
- Hu Jintao warned party leaders against corruption
- but the guys who were in power the 10 years before Hu are muscling in; Xi Jinping might not have sufficient control over the government as a result

Perhaps the most telling thing, which a Google search reveals has been a recurring refrain since 2010 at least, is that Hu vowed China would never adopt Western models of governance. In his translated phrase: "'We should place high importance on systemic building, give full play to the strength of the socialist political system and draw on the political achievements of other societies. But we will never copy a Western political system,' [Hu] said." No doubt China would like to stress the "patient" nature of their system, but I'm not sure their public would appreciate that description. Regardless, it's almost an academic matter if you view it in this way.

I believe the biggest problem is that China's leadership is resolved to remain an opaque body, and while there may be benefits, it seems that the potential for devastating corruption and collusion mixes with the 10-year cycle of various clans into and out of the ascendancy, presents the possibility of severe and unavoidable problems. The people who pay the high price are just as likely to be the political mid-bosses who lose their political cover by accidents, made into scapegoats to assuage the other people, as they are to be people with nominal control over a situation that blows up into a national scandal (like the tainted milk scandal). This loser-loses-all possibility leads in turn to a likelihood of frantic viciousness given the high stakes of the race, but the means by which the various officials scramble to protect themselves tend towards further tying themselves into their group - rather than the more obviously useful and stable system of shining a light on problems before they fester. I don't think the system is sustainable in its current form given these potentials. Today's political commentator (from the BBC I think) described it as not unlike warring Mafia families, so tightly nested are the cliques and the clans of the government.

Good post Ed. Ever since the Bo Xilai scandal the in-fighting (or at least division) within China's govt. has become increasingly apparent. While I do think staying away from western models of govt. is smart and pragmatic (there's a lot to learn from our failings) it's clear that they're far from cementing a new model that works in a modern world where they have economic superiority. Respectfully, it's early days, but something has to give. I think they know it, on the upside, but whether or not they can find a system to quell the bickering and corruption is anyone's guess.

[Jonathan Ingram]

You can tell the trust is mutual when people bitch about the government out loud.

You can tell there isn`t any "mutual trust" when austerity measures and evictions continue no matter who you vote for. These democracies of mutual trust and happy co-existence between capital and labor exist only in your head.

I`m not even going to bother commenting on that other bit.

Ever since the Bo Xilai scandal the in-fighting (or at least division) within China's govt. has become increasingly apparent.

I know a few folks in China who were putting a lot of hope in Bo citing him as the evidence that there were still "healthy"(pro-socialist) forces in the party. I was told that a certain pro-Bo Xilai Maoist website got shut down in the wake of the scandal and the administrator had to flee to Taiwan(oh, the irony).

It's a disgrace that nobody over here was willing to touch the Eurozone Crisis during the debates, but the bigger problem may well be the destruction of confidence. People in "normal times" like to talk about "investor confidence" but that won't save you if the people rise up.

The ruling elites in Europe are now trying to see to it that people don`t rise up, hence their increasingly right-wing rhetoric. It`s not by accident that parties like Golden Dawn and Jobbik have suddenly become such media darlings. They may exist as scarecrows for now, but there`s little doubt they are going to be used as a fall back plan to prevent any potential social upheavals should such a necessity occur.


A video on Golden Dawn from the article I linked to before(in case someone missed it):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2 ... intcmp=239

Some disturbing stuff there.

[Obiwanshinobi]

You can tell there isn`t any "mutual trust" when austerity measures and evictions continue no matter who you vote for. These democracies of mutual trust and happy co-existence between capital and labor exist only in your head.

What exists in my head is trust, sometimes, somewhere. See, democracy can be more than ideology; it can be an experience. I've voted many times, but two times I had a feeling that We the People just saved the day, and two times I got fear that something just went wrong. Might have just fallen for a trap, but it made me feel responsible for the way things are and this, dear sir, is how Reality˜™ works for me. Then things happen and if they meet my expectations, I get the feeling of being jolly right.
Can some conspiracy of masters against servants do that?

I`m not even going to bother commenting on that other bit.

Thanks for letting me know.

Why 'alleged'?

Because your word I have on it isn't backed up by my beliefs and hunches.

Well thanks for getting involved in your own thread dude, been insightful talking with you.

The thread kind of just sits here. Mine is thought that the so called "history" is happening in countries far from where well-fed societies expected it to occur. I didn't hear it said out loud, so there, I said it.
Not that I'm envious (I do not wish I participated in the French Revolution either).

This loser-loses-all possibility leads in turn to a likelihood of frantic viciousness given the high stakes of the race, but the means by which the various officials scramble to protect themselves tend towards further tying themselves into their group - rather than the more obviously useful and stable system of shining a light on problems before they fester.

Toldja - in "normal" countries, "glasnost" isn't a word.
Far East-wise, I see rampant bribery ("corruption" is quite a word; no sir, people don't start to rot when they get on top) as another stamp impressed by starvation. Those who grow fat and treat others, tend to survive the days of dearth.
I doubt telling people to behave and executing the losers is enough to do something about it.

[Jonathan Ingram]

First you struggle to string sentences together and now you`re posting some random pictures. What the heck is that?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Reality™ for some, a riddle for others.

[mesh control]

I want to try whatever dissociative compounds you're on.

[Friendly]

Heh, I began to suspect Obiwanshinobi being on some kind of medication after this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 29#p850229

[neorichieb1971]

Democracy = cleaning up your predecessors mess atm.

At least the Chinese socialists can only blame themselves if it goes wrong.

I live in a democracy and I don't vote. I think voting should be done by those who know what they are voting for. Some people think i'm a prat. But at the end of the day if I voted without REALLY knowing what was best for my country, then I would consider myself even more of a prat. Most people vote for whats best for themselves, those people are cunts and have no business living in a democracy.

If the world goes to shit, its because the Western democracies voted for it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I want to try whatever dissociative compounds you're on.

You need to be lucky beyond words. I can't recommend it honestly. Some kind of memory might suffer too.

[BIL]

What is that a memorial to, Obi?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Red Army soldiers cemetery.

[BIL]

Thanks - couldn't tell from the URL / filename.

[Nico87]

Your move Iran/N.Korea/China

And China is much too pragmatic; there is nothing to gain for them in an armed conflict which they can't simply buy directly at much lower cost.

Just wait 'till they actually are the economic superpower of this world and start looking for "living space".

But no, can't see WW3 or anything major (apart from what's already happening) happening any time soon.

[Obiwanshinobi]

By the way...

If the world goes to shit, its because the Western democracies voted for it.

Thanks for speaking up. Better late than never (I guess).

To help me evacute my ivory tower in the frozen land of No U, could somebody recommend some Chinese, Persian etc. computer game that is good? There must be something, be it mods or hacks. Up and running game dev business in Eastern Europe is a hint that Tetris wasn't but a fluke (no more than all other computer games of the time). I read compelling things of that Chinese Diablo clone... No, not Prince of Qin (I actually have it, albeit unplayed yet). Diablo clones are notoriously tricky to get right and if some Chinese dev did it, I'd be impressed.
Just trying to be pleased with something that is not myself for a change.
P.S. Honestly, if I wasn't undone with Divine Divinity, I'd be about to install Prince of Qin.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Red Army soldiers cemetery.

And you posted it here because... ? Another riddle?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Can't pic-spam indiscriminatively, can I? Each and every message needs a becoming time and place to appear. The picture in discussion found its resting place above.

[Friendly]

Can't pic-spam indiscriminatively, can I? Each and every message needs a becoming time and place to appear. The picture in discussion found its resting place above.

Awesome, I think.

[BryanM]

Via today's A Good Cartoon, a parody of the Dry Bones comic series.



It's precisely what Dry Bones says, but with the veneer of bullshit peeled off.

People get paid for shitty political cartoons. If only everyone could be as good as Matt Bors.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Shit's hectic.