Hello from Rising Star Games!

[Cuilan]

Also likely the reason Aksys didn't port more Cave games after Deathsmiles. (You can still find the LE and SE all over the place for cheap. Clearly, it didn't sell enough.)

Deathsmiles managed to sell about half its US shipment, which is fairly decent for a shmup in the US in my opinion. From what I heard, Aksys weren't disappointed with what it sold, but weren't all that impressed either. Another bit of info I heard from the grapevine was that one of the main reasons Aksys hasn't brought over more Cave games was due to one of the higher-ups at Aksys not being very fond of a particular Cave staffer. Of course, Microsoft's print-run rules also further discouraged them from bringing out any more Cave games.

As for Microsoft "leaving a lot of good money on the table", well...the sad truth is that this genre is very niche, and it's pretty clear that the number-crunchers at Microsoft have determined that as far as the US is concerned, it's not worth their time to go out of their way to cater to such niche markets.

[brokenhalo]

As for Microsoft "leaving a lot of good money on the table", well...the sad truth is that this genre is very niche, and it's pretty clear that the number-crunchers at Microsoft have determined that as far as the US is concerned, it's not worth their time to go out of their way to cater to such niche markets.

I don't know. they did approach cave about porting sdoj. and sdoj is getting a simultaneous worldwide release. it's only one title, but it speaks volumes about microsofts commitment to taking chances with the genre.

also, don't forget microsoft allowed cave to do a GoD release for deathsmiles 2 without actually releasing a physical disc outside japan. i think this is the only title that was allowed to do this.

[system11]

Yeah - and look how well that worked out, I'll go and play it now.

Oh I can't, Europe.

[brokenhalo]

Yeah - and look how well that worked out, I'll go and play it now.

Oh I can't, Europe.

that's dumb. i wonder who dropped the ball on that..

[Cuilan]

I don't know. they did approach cave about porting sdoj. and sdoj is getting a simultaneous worldwide release. it's only one title, but it speaks volumes about microsofts commitment to taking chances with the genre.

also, don't forget microsoft allowed cave to do a GoD release for deathsmiles 2 without actually releasing a physical disc outside japan. i think this is the only title that was allowed to do this.

It was Microsoft Japan who approached Cave. I was specifically referring to Microsoft in the US. And we still don't know how the SDOJ release is really going to be handled.

As for your second point, no it wasn't the only game released in that manner. See my post in the previous page.

[HydrogLox]

Apparently their experience with the PS3 port of Mamoru-kun wasn't all bad and naturally there is a large PS3 install base in Japan that isn't saturated with STGs. So in the Japanese market the PS3 version had the better "potential for growth".

@ Hydroglox
Mamoru-Kun on PS3 sold 5,000 worldwide

I'd blame Mamoru-Kun for that one.
While it would have made a better experience to actually make money on the deal it did give G.rev the experience to code a PS3 title and to get it out of the gate in Soný's universe. Presumably that experience opened the door to the PS3 version of Under Defeat HD as the Japanese Xbox 360 market still doesn't have any growth potential. Borderdown HD should have been the more logical choice but apparently that one was more work and potentially less cash sooner made more sense at the time.

On an unrelated note: blog.us.playstation.com - Under Defeat HD: One Small Studio’s Development Mission (Posted by Hiroyuki Maruyama // CEO, G.rev Ltd.)

[Cuilan]

I'd blame Mamoru-Kun for that one.
While it would have made a better experience to actually make money on the deal it did give G.rev the experience to code a PS3 title and to get it out of the gate in Soný's universe. Presumably that experience opened the door to the PS3 version of Under Defeat HD as the Japanese Xbox 360 market still doesn't have any growth potential. Borderdown HD should have been the more logical choice but apparently that one was more work and potentially less cash sooner made more sense at the time.

It's not right to first blame Mamoru-kun itself for the PS3 port's low sales, and then turn around and bring up the 360's growth potential as the cause for G.rev making Under Defeat HD multiplatform.

Growth potential is mostly irrelevant at this point. Shmups are very niche, and most everyone who cares about the genre owns a 360 already. Publishers shouldn't blame the market when their games don't sell well. We aren't running a charity here. If a shmup under-performs, the vast majority of the blame should be placed on the game and the publisher, not the consumers or a console's install base.

The only reason a PS3 version of Under Defeat HD exists is because Cyber Front paid G.rev to port their core game engine to the PS3 (Mamoru-kun). Speaking of Cyber Front, it's interesting that they haven't released any other shmups on the PS3 after Mamoru-kun. It's pretty telling that they chose to port Strike Witches to the PSP rather than the PS3 (or even the Vita, for that matter).

[n0rtygames]

I don't understand why Windows can't be the real cost effective focus here.

The costs of physical copies would be limited to whatever Cave have with going with RSG and the silver disc runs can be purchased on demand. The xbox is clearly a DX based product and from my time spent working at Codemasters as a tester - PC stuff is far less problematic and of course there's the drastic improvements on performance.

Heck, a bunch of arcade machines these days are just PCs sitting in cabinets (at least I know the ones Codemasters were putting out are) - so it's not like this isn't within Caves sphere.

It won't be long before the 360 is moving in to unsupported product territory and it will eventually go the way of older consoles.

Customer thought process:
"Wow, these bullet hell games look nuts!"
"Aww, only on xbox? What?! Over £70 to import it and it's region locked?"

Now throw that out there on PC with an initial batch of silver discs burned off and further batches burned on demand - digital downloads are instantly available and people who want a boxed product can still make the purchase.

I know there are a bunch of Cave titles that I've played on emulators, simply because I don't own the necessary hardware to play them and have unfortunately now moved out of London where arcades still exist.

Would I spend £40+ on a legitimate PC-DVD copy of a Cave game to add it to my collection, even if there was no localisation? Absolutely

[AntiFritz]

Cave released Akai Katana Shin on Nesica Live, which afaik is PC based. So I don't imagine It would be much work to release that on pc.

[HydrogLox]

"Work" could mean a wide variety of things. Arcade platforms based on generic PC components like the Taito Type X2 and Type X3, Sega RingEdge and RingWide etc. are still highly standardized configurations of hardware and software components designed to deliver a uniformly reproducible user experience - just like gaming consoles. An API like DX may abstract away the hardware details for the software developer but it doesn't guarantee a "uniformly reproducible user experience". Crimson Clover can be today installed and "work" on a variety of consumer end PCs - however there is no guarantee that it will look or perform exactly the same on different PC (hardware and software) configurations. Under extreme circumstances divergent PC configurations could even impact the comparability of recorded high scores.

[n0rtygames]

Very good point and well made. The racing games CM put out in arcades tend to not be so strict regarding scores and timings and scores are all localised.

I probably should have thought that through as this has been one of my arguments in favour of targeting the 360 in the past.

I'll get my coat....

[MR_Soren]

Also likely the reason Aksys didn't port more Cave games after Deathsmiles. (You can still find the LE and SE all over the place for cheap. Clearly, it didn't sell enough.)

Deathsmiles managed to sell about half its US shipment, which is fairly decent for a shmup in the US in my opinion.

Depends on what that is half of. Regardless, selling half is nice, but not selling the other half is awful. Aksys probably didn't lose money on the whole thing, but the situation is not positive.

As for Microsoft "leaving a lot of good money on the table", well...the sad truth is that this genre is very niche, and it's pretty clear that the number-crunchers at Microsoft have determined that as far as the US is concerned, it's not worth their time to go out of their way to cater to such niche markets.

They don't have to go out of their way to cater to niche markets, but they could stop going out of their way to block niche games from their console. It may only be a few thousand people who care, but why create a policy that forces a game that is cross-platform in all other regions to be PS3-exclusive in NA? There is no way for that to make sense. The game exists and there is a market for it. It's foolish to not take the money and the customers that could come with it.

[Cuilan]

Depends on what that is half of. Regardless, selling half is nice, but not selling the other half is awful. Aksys probably didn't lose money on the whole thing, but the situation is not positive.

Half of 50,000

Also, I think it's really unrealistic to expect a retail shmup released in the US to sell much more than that.

They don't have to go out of their way to cater to niche markets, but they could stop going out of their way to block niche games from their console. It may only be a few thousand people who care, but why create a policy that forces a game that is cross-platform in all other regions to be PS3-exclusive in NA? There is no way for that to make sense. The game exists and there is a market for it. It's foolish to not take the money and the customers that could come with it.

I'm not really sure on the specifics on how Microsoft has their videogame business structured in the US, so it's hard to say one way or the other how much money/effort it would take for them to alter their rules. I'm assuming that since they haven't done anything to change it yet, that it isn't quite as simple as it may seem, or that they just don't consider it worth whatever effort it would take. And it's not like they're actively trying to discourage the sale of extremely niche titles. It's more of an unfortunate case of the setup they decided on early in the generation just so happens to have not taken extremely niche genres into consideration. If this is the sort of thing that was written in a licensing agreement between Microsoft and 3rd party publishers that covers the entire life of the 360, then I don't think it would be a simple thing to change.

[RSG_Spoonparty]

Hello Chaps and Chapess'

Just letting you guys know we are doing a caption comp on our facebook page for a copy of Under Defeat HD Deluxe Edition (your choice of available platforms). It's running til 4pm (UK TIME) Friday and there will be another winner picked on the weekend, so get in there. Obviously not trying to turn this forum into a sales platform but its a shot at getting a free game pre-release so wanted to share.

[RSG_Spoonparty]

oh and here's a link

ow.ly/eWEJJ

[VixyNyan]

Posted a kinda-funny shmup-related comment there. Hope you guys at RSG like it~ :3

[exquisite_torture]

oh and here's a link

ow.ly/eWEJJ

I posted something with heavy homosexual overtones that you have to read as if it's a section from a Yello track.

[RSG_Spoonparty]

ooooOOOOohhYeah!

[MR_Soren]

I just see two guys laughing at North American 360 owners.

[KAI]

If I win, I just want the soundtrack CD.

[EmperorIng]

I just see two guys laughing at North American 360 owners.

I tried thinking of a comment but I think this about sums it up!

[Kiken]

If I win, I just want the soundtrack CD.

Which one? There are 3 different soundtrack CDs for Under Defeat (original arcade OST, DC AST and New Order AST).

[KAI]

4, The Soldier of Fortune: Under Defeat Mini REMIX CD

I would like New Order AST, I don't think they have the others.

F**k I lost, and I though my comment was clever.

[exquisite_torture]

ooooOOOOohhYeah!

Come with me, I want to show you something. You know about love, dont you. That's good, but you better eat that lollipop like I told you.

[hermit crab]

First of all thank you to RSG for publishing these games. I've bought a couple already and plan to buy the rest too (the ones that run on a PAL Xbox 360 that is).

Regarding hard copies vs downloads I am also for hard copies! However, for arcade-style games a third option would be best of all... sell credits! Say 25 MS points per credit. Not only will it solve the "ruining the game with credit feeding"-issue but I genuinely feel that when you pay for credits the experience is completely different. As extra lives gained in the game are a monetary reward too in a way, it becomes a sort of mix of video gaming and gambling instead of just the former.

And regarding cover art... I must say that I completely ignored Deathsmiles before reading online praises of it. I thought it was some kind of Barbie doll game for young girls. In Deathsmiles it's kinda understandable but in DDP Resurrection the "anime chick" is also quite prominent on the cover. I would prefer something like the ship to have the spotlight so it's more clear what it the game is about.

[exquisite_torture]

Digital pre-release seems like a good idea to reach those impatient types who weren't impatient enough to import.

[system11]

If digital prerelease existed, not enough people would buy the hardcopies to justify the production runs.

Hardcopies matter. Yesterday, I sat down and played Gunhed and Kato & Ken on my PC Engine. I can do this because hardcopies exist. If digital distribution had existed back then, the chances of finding a console with those games loaded on it, and the chances of the download service still existing would be zero to none.

A whole era of ports and games will be lost this generation as the old consoles and services are retired. As gamers we should never encourage more titles to be lost to the void. For example that Walking Dead episodic game - it's fantastic, and it only exists digitally. Eventually it will be gone and nobody will ever be able to play it again. Another example - the Double Dragon port. Now granted, this example is mitigated by the fact that DD PCBs and emulation exists, but the port for 360 is dead. If you have it paid for, you can play it. If you didn't own it before, you can't choose to buy it now. There are several other games affected by this, I think the Speedball 2 (amazing game) port is one of them. Dead titles already exist even within the lifespan of the service.

And that's why Rising Star have a duty to make these games physical, and explain to people why this matters.

[Legendary Hoamaru]

Not exactly true. The same way we have roms for hardcopies of old games, downloadable games get put on the internet too.

It's not exactly the legal or recommended way to preserve games, and you'll have to jump through a few hoops RIGHT NOW since the consoles aren't emulated, but it is incorrect to say that they'll disappear forever. It's actually a bit easier to back up the digital games since they are already digital.

[n0rtygames]

It's not exactly the legal or recommended way to preserve games, and you'll have to jump through a few hoops RIGHT NOW since the consoles aren't emulated, but it is incorrect to say that they'll disappear forever. It's actually a bit easier to back up the digital games since they are already digital.

Isn't this the real point though? Games should not rely on being made available via legally dubious means. It's utterly obvious that companies like Cave are fully aware that their older games are emulated and I don't think they have any plans to set about revoking access to these titles at this time, or at any immediate point in the future.

However it is of course worth bearing in mind the state of emulation sites when the Wii launched and Nintendo set about re-releasing older titles via their online store on the Wii.

You are explicitly told when you run a CAVE ROM that you're risking prosecution to the full extent of the jam. Garbled English or not - every one of us at some point has at least, in some part of our brain, acknowledged this. The chance of this happening in reality is extremely slim - however it is STILL a possibility regardless of how remote.

Speedball 2 is a perfect example of why digital distribution should spark some concerns. When licensing agreements go sour, or a company can't pay the upkeep or resubmission costs for an XBLA title (They're really not cheap) - games can and will be pulled. It's okay to say that the game is available to people who already made the purchase - even though this is Microsoft we're talking about - the chances of a service simply being pulled one day without a huge amount of forewarning, or legacy support on future platforms are still there. Particularly if there's a political change within Microsoft in the future.

With regards to the price of niche games - I like to think of it as paying for quality and paying a premium for physical copies, acknowledging the business situation that the entire genre is in (or at least portrayed as) these days for both independants and larger companies.

[Legendary Hoamaru]

I'm not too interested in debating the ethics of roms/backup games, it's been beaten to death here and other places and I won't be adding anything new. I'm only pointing out that it is not exactly true to say that the game will be gone forever.

I prefer physical games, but can understand why developers want to go digital sometimes since, even with the expenses some digital services may bring, it's much cheaper than the expenses tied to physical games. They are a business, this is a niche, they want to stay alive while delivering the games we love.

Edit: @trap15 Can't disagree there .