Pirates vs aliens cute "caravan shmup" (thanks BPzeBanshee)

[railslave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw6uWD_ZfKU&feature=plcp

started making this last night. So be kind !

[BPzeBanshee]

This looks interesting!

A suggestion for the bullet that appears from the background: possibly make it flash or duller or something to distinguish when it's in the background to when it's in the foreground and able to hurt the player.

[railslave]

Play a alpha demo version here, its a bit manic and involves collecting as many jewels as possible to get the highest score (still implementing the frontend and highscore system, so its a bit rough)

http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers

Its just a fun little blast , that can be fiendishly difficult, the more you score the harder it is to see for all the swag(can see bullets though )

[n0rtygames]

I think you were on to something better before you added the jewels in.

You went too nuts with the jewels - the original video looked better.. simpler game.

Have a look at the Gundemonium collection - I think it was Gundedigone.. or something like that.. on PS3 (Watch youtube videos if you dont have one) and specifically note that when you kill enemies they drop jewels which rapidly start to fall off to the left side of the screen so there's a bit of a rush to collect as many score items as possible.

This is a mechanic that's worked well for loads of STGs since they were conceived - so dont deviate too much from it. There are a lot of ways to avoid screen congestion with a billion gems flying out out enemies.

1. Make gems less frequent, trickier to collect but worth more
2. Do what cave games do (and Chronoblast!) spawn billions of gems from an enemy but make them noticably darker than the rest of the game
3. Do what Akku Gallet (Thanks Trap15!) does and have a decaying collection system where you're rewarded more points the sooner you pick an item up as it degrades over time. (Gold->Silver->Bronze->Gone)

[BPzeBanshee]

I agree with everything n0rty said above. If you make it so the enemies drop the gems instead of the alien blob in the background and tone the droprate down a bit that should be quite sufficient for the scoring system.

[railslave]

Thanks for all the encouragement and feedback, coming from you guys it means alot Try this, alot better and a bit more challenging . Didnt darken the gems yet , but theres ALOT less (what possessed me to put so many............ 0h thats right, girls love shiny things)


http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers?

Ill have to work on a decaying treasure system, good idea!

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah, that's looking a lot more balanced!

One more tweak suggestion: instead of having the ships blast the diamonds up to the top of the screen (using randomisation it seems which is considered a no-no for anything other than aesthetics in a shmup ie. explosion image angles), have the enemies drop them. Also make them appear below the enemies and bullets, I had some difficulty seeing some enemies because there was a horde of gems above it and when I moved my mouse onto it I died as a result.

[n0rtygames]

Yeah, that's looking a lot more balanced!
One more tweak suggestion: instead of having the ships blast the diamonds up to the top of the screen (using randomisation it seems which is considered a no-no for anything other than aesthetics in a shmup ie. explosion image angles)

You can use randomisation, so long as its seeded... but that's a topic subject to fierce debate for another time. While you're learning I think you should just be allowed to do it, then we can shout at you later on.

Basically - the reason we say that randomisation is a no - is that one of the principals behind playing a STG for score is that there is one true way to attain the highest score in the game in the most optimal timeframe. So essentially, once the game starts - if I put the same inputs in at exactly the same times - I should get the exact same score each time.

have the enemies drop them. Also make them appear below the enemies and bullets, I had some difficulty seeing some enemies because there was a horde of gems above it and when I moved my mouse onto it I died as a result.

Definately do this. For now, don't worry about rings of gems coming out - make each enemy spawn one gem for now.. spawn the best scoring gem in your game. Just one gem. Then have this gem move to the left until it goes off screen and disappear.

Once you've done that, you can work on degrading the Gem the further it travels. What this will do is encourage memorisation of enemy patterns and encourage point blank shooting enemies for score. Think about it: If I'm right next to an enemy and it drops a gem worth 500 points... I'll get the 500 points from that gem. If I leave the gem to move 100 pixels to the left, it might degrade to a 400 point gem... so if I'm cowering on the left side of the screen shooting your enemies - I will have further to travel to pick up your gems and they will probably be worth less by the time I get to them.

BUT if I'm playing your game aggressively, I will be getting a higher score because I'm taking the risk of being closer to the enemies.

Don't worry about a lot of the things you might hear us bitching at each other about - deadzones, cutoff zones and all that sort of shit. That will actually come later. We all get it wrong too, so don't let it phase you. You seem to be improving your approach pretty rapidly!

May I suggest as an exercise for your next version - as demented as this sounds - that you put a line of code in the bullets so that they die instantly upon creation? Going for a no bullets mode initially will allow you to focus on your core mechanic - which is shooting enemies and collecting shiny things. As a development step, you can put the bullets back in later and tailor them to make it riskier for the player.

[railslave]

Yeah, that's looking a lot more balanced!

One more tweak suggestion: instead of having the ships blast the diamonds up to the top of the screen.

They were meant to look as if that big alien boss was shooting them from the other side of the ocean (as well as that big bullet) too quick to do a size sine wave perhaps ?. Its why he sprays them at random but always the screen width, because the perspective sort of makes sense that way . distant gems sprites a bit square anyway .

That boss is going to be a vertical section when i work out some decent bullet waves ( classic retro ones , not all this comtempary madness im not capable of yet )

I understand about having the same score and same paths ect. I just didnt feel happy (o.c.d. with randomness) saying this gem is 25 everytime. But i guess thats what makes it fair, the skill is in getting there.
With the gem moving left slightly (and falling as its been shot from so far away) it will help with the illusion of speed, like the explosion smoke moving left. (BRAINWAVE...that big thing could shoot the gems hard right so get the illusion your flying straight into them as you pass )
Ill see what i can do



EDIT: I TRIED WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT GEMS RIGHT TO, RANDOMIZED THE GRAVITY AND SPEED BUT THE SCORES ARE ALL FIXED NOW, http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers

gold=100
red =50
blue=25
green=5

Adjusted the speed and gravity of gold so it should be the last jewel in the line, more often than not.







All taken on board.
I may slightly increase the drop rate , for that tacky seaside holiday feel feels a bit barren. I want to give the illusion/temptation that your realy raking in the loot.

Thanks for the feedback
Oh, btw like my Jesus walking on a raindow (ignore the bullets ect )? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxnXBHx ... ture=inbox
thats going to be epic

[BPzeBanshee]

Don't worry about a lot of the things you might hear us bitching at each other about - deadzones, cutoff zones and all that sort of shit. That will actually come later. We all get it wrong too, so don't let it phase you. You seem to be improving your approach pretty rapidly!

n0rtygames really hit it on the nail with his above post. This is jumping up in leagues, and might I say it's showing off the better part of your spriting skills too. I'm very interested to see where this goes from here.

[n0rtygames]

Definately change the gems to be dropping from the enemies.

If you want to have that feel of "loot explosions" like Diablo 2/Torchlight - I suggest that instead of having the gems rain in from the top of the screen at random intervals - that you have a chest of pirate booty that spawns every so often that you can shoot for "phat lootz"

To be perfectly honest with you, the problem I have with this game is that I just don't have a clue what's going to happen next. Games start becoming good when after a couple of restarts, the player can begin to predict what's gonna happen..

Any game really - The Quake Done Quick series wouldn't have been possible if the monster spawns and items were randomised. Deathmatches wouldn't be as competetive if the item respawn times were random.

All we care about is getting a high score and making the person in the spot below us look like a novice. We're elitist bastards like that.

[railslave]

![/quote]
n0rtygames really hit it on the nail with his above post. This is jumping up in leagues, and might I say it's showing off the better part of your spriting skills too. I'm very interested to see where this goes from here.[/quote]


Thanks, as a spriter this is literally the beginning, ive learned the most valuable lessons,

***patience***
***imagination***
***how to draw chrome****
and most important, i believe; not to stretch things but create them within the width of the game.

I realy enjoy the british, 8 bit home computer lo-res look, i had an amstrad cpc.

These little projects are all exercises in getting a variety of experience i guess,
I may start making something with the visual specs of a zx spectrum next (not the power of one)

And hey i wouldn't have gone at this with so much energy if you hadnt pushed me away from that thunderforce thing, THANKS..
taking and learning from criticism is a good lesson as well i guess.

[railslave]

Definately change the gems to be dropping from the enemies.

If you want to have that feel of "loot explosions" like Diablo 2/Torchlight - I suggest that instead of having the gems rain in from the top of the screen at random intervals - that you have a chest of pirate booty that spawns every so often that you can shoot for "phat lootz"

To be perfectly honest with you, the problem I have with this game is that I just don't have a clue what's going to happen next. Games start becoming good when after a couple of restarts, the player can begin to predict what's gonna happen..

Any game really - The Quake Done Quick series wouldn't have been possible if the monster spawns and items were randomised. Deathmatches wouldn't be as competetive if the item respawn times were random.

All we care about is getting a high score and making the person in the spot below us look like a novice. We're elitist bastards like that.

Yeah ill try that (chests), this huge alien shooting gems across the ocean idea isnt working, to lo res to realy be obvious that thats whats happening.
Ill take random enemies out..see how it goes(every few games the randomization of enemies back fires anyway). Im dreading it, but i guess the gems are too big for the screen size, there goes my summer holiday beach arcade experience.

[railslave]

Definately change the gems to be dropping from the enemies.



All we care about is getting a high score and making the person in the spot below us look like a novice. We're elitist bastards like that.

My highest score is 15160, its all about mouse control.

[railslave]

Definately change the gems to be dropping from the enemies.

If you want to have that feel of "loot explosions" like Diablo 2/Torchlight - I suggest that instead of having the gems rain in from the top of the screen at random intervals - that you have a chest of pirate booty that spawns every so often that you can shoot for "phat lootz"

i did think about having a chest with a fuse that you shoot to light then you have to wait for it to blow. Will probably go with that ..be interesting to make

[n0rtygames]

"It's all about mouse control" -- Well, as you've said on one of your videos - your aspiration is to get a game out on a mobile phone platform.. WP7, iOS, Android etc. Take a look at some of the big hitters in the mobile shmup market.

What phone do you have? I'm not sure what's available on Android as I don't have any knowledge of the android marketplace - but on iOS there are a lot of cave titles you could look at where "mouse control" is done particularly well, given the number of bullets you have to dodge in Cave games:

* Dodonpachi Ressurrection (aka, DDP: Daifukkatsu)
* Dodonpachi Blissful Deathj (aka, DDP: DaiOuJou)
* Bug Princess (aka Mushihimesama)
* Bug Princess 2 (aka Mushihimesama Futari)
* Deathsmiles (aka... Cultural Upskirt Statement)

On WP7, you have Dodonpachi Maximum.

----

Regarding the chest with a fuse, I think that's a great idea. You could actually take that a step further. Instead of waiting for the chest to explode for a reward - make this one of your tougher enemies that takes more than one shot to kill. If the fuse goes, have it fire a circular pattern of bullets. If it's destroyed - spawn gems, do a bomb effect killing small enemies and convert all on screen bullets to gems.

[railslave]

Regarding the chest with a fuse, I think that's a great idea. You could actually take that a step further. Instead of waiting for the chest to explode for a reward - make this one of your tougher enemies that takes more than one shot to kill. If the fuse goes, have it fire a circular pattern of bullets. If it's destroyed - spawn gems, do a bomb effect killing small enemies and convert all on screen bullets to gems.

Wow thanks for the challenge lol, i have the barrels being thrown from the background and it actualy appears that way. ILL see how much of this i can pull off should be "educational"

I find keyboard controls a bit clunky, the mouse sounds easier but its not, its all about knowing when to dash. Thanks for the suggestions

UPDATE:
i have it so every time the barrel explodes (on being shot) the boss alien launches a massive bullet that comes down with the jewels (alot faster)scattering them on contact.

[BPzeBanshee]

"It's all about mouse control" -- Well, as you've said on one of your videos - your aspiration is to get a game out on a mobile phone platform.. WP7, iOS, Android etc. Take a look at some of the big hitters in the mobile shmup market.

...
On WP7, you have Dodonpachi Maximum.

Dodonpachi Maximum is now on iOS too.

In regards to the controls, I don't like to sound like a Cave fanboy but they have aced the control scheme for bullet hells on iOS devices. You've already seen Rozyrg's projects thread but I'd like to point out Last Chance specifically as an example to try out as it uses keyboard AND mouse input (although if I may be blunt it's been made with the mouse in mind and the public release is a bit stupidly hard IMO, he's toned it down since then).

I like the exploding barrels idea too: Chariot (one of the games in Capcom's Three Wonders arcade three-in-one) had flying treasure chests that when shot at would open and reveal coins and such. You could do the same there, have the gems come out from that and fly left.

[railslave]

http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers

A bar that you fill up by killing baddies(5), exploding chests, bullet time explosions...=O.T.T.

[n0rtygames]

I don't like to sound like a Cave fanboy

.....you mean there are other shmups?..........

You're right though. They really are spot on. I can't play Maximum on my ipod as it's a 4th gen.. Bleh :/

[n0rtygames]

http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers

A bar that you fill up by killing baddies(5), exploding chests, bullet time explosions...=O.T.T.

See that's more like it. Regardless of the fact that you only have to kill 5 bad guys (and it's easy to trigger it) - you're now on to something that's far more of a game. You have mechanics in place that allow some form of gameplay.

* Shoot bad things
* Dodge bad things
* When you shoot enough things, you get a reward.. so we now have a goal

Whether that gameplay will keep me coming back for the next 6 months trying to no-miss the game to face your true last boss is not a discussion for now. Have to be honest, if this is really your first foray in to designing games then you are doing really well.

Either that or you're just taking the piss out of my full screen ripples... xD

In seriousness though - about those - that'd probably be my next critique. But before I critique - well done on implementing the effect. It actually looks pretty badass for an effect in a flash game.

If you can make your ripples only distort the background and make anything on the foreground layers (enemies/bullets/pickups) remain undistorted then that effect is pretty funky. At the moment, the reward the game gives me actually hinders me by making it harder to play... the game doesn't become more difficult, it just becomes harder to play during the wibbly bits.

Honestly once you've sorted that out, if you remove all randomisation so that we can play for score if we wanted to - you've got a fully functioning shmup on your hands in a matter of days and should be commended for doing so.

Get that sorted - Wrap it up, stick it on a flash portal marking it as done and write the design document for your bigger game

[railslave]

http://www.marketjs.com/game/aliensvspirateers

A bar that you fill up by killing baddies(5), exploding chests, bullet time explosions...=O.T.T.

See that's more like it. Regardless of the fact that you only have to kill 5 bad guys (and it's easy to trigger it) - you're now on to something that's far more of a game. You have mechanics in place that allow some form of gameplay.

* Shoot bad things
* Dodge bad things
* When you shoot enough things, you get a reward.. so we now have a goal

Whether that gameplay will keep me coming back for the next 6 months trying to no-miss the game to face your true last boss is not a discussion for now. Have to be honest, if this is really your first foray in to designing games then you are doing really well.

Either that or you're just taking the piss out of my full screen ripples... xD

In seriousness though - about those - that'd probably be my next critique. But before I critique - well done on implementing the effect. It actually looks pretty badass for an effect in a flash game.

If you can make your ripples only distort the background and make anything on the foreground layers (enemies/bullets/pickups) remain undistorted then that effect is pretty funky. At the moment, the reward the game gives me actually hinders me by making it harder to play... the game doesn't become more difficult, it just becomes harder to play during the wibbly bits.

Honestly once you've sorted that out, if you remove all randomisation so that we can play for score if we wanted to - you've got a fully functioning shmup on your hands in a matter of days and should be commended for doing so.

Get that sorted - Wrap it up, stick it on a flash portal marking it as done and write the design document for your bigger game

Thanks, and thanks for the guidence, direction experience and support. that pulse effect is easy to separate. I might take the flashing off the barrel and make it expand.

Awww you realy hate random things do you mean the enemy creation or the speed of the bullets ?(which is slightly random) Gem drops are whatever the computer can managed in 0.05 seconds at random angles that bounce off the big bullet at random angles. (making a 360 bullet explosion was too hard for me to figure out with a spinning barrel atm)

I got an awesome idea for another background inspired by the pirate ship cave in the goonies.
My boss will be worth it, and be abstract as hell.
I might rename it Noah vs. the Nephilim with the tag line " forget about the animals, show me the money"

Oh this isnt flash, its html5..the future of law enforcement

[trap15]

Randomness is generally A Bad Idea (tm). There's a reason you so rarely see it in commercial STG. It doesn't lend itself to a fair and competitive gameplay experience.

[railslave]

Randomness is generally A Bad Idea (tm). There's a reason you so rarely see it in commercial STG. It doesn't lend itself to a fair and competitive gameplay experience.

Even random angles when colliding with something? and random gravity on stuff, to mix it up a bit ? absolutely no random then, on anything ?

(being trying it and its made the game alot harder actually , you come to fear certain situations)
thanks for the feedback

[trap15]

Absolutely no randomness is the best way to go, at least when starting. Yagawa uses it slightly, but that's only for some certain rare bullet patterns and it's made sure to be fair (at least on the older games... MMP is a spectacular exception ).

Until you have a good, well balanced game, do not try to mess with randomness. A good alternative for bullet aiming is to "latch" positions to, say, 10 degrees. So it can only aim at 0deg, 10deg, 20deg, etc. Lots of older games do this.

[railslave]

Absolutely no randomness is the best way to go, at least when starting. Yagawa uses it slightly, but that's only for some certain rare bullet patterns and it's made sure to be fair (at least on the older games... MMP is a spectacular exception ).

Until you have a good, well balanced game, do not try to mess with randomness. A good alternative for bullet aiming is to "latch" positions to, say, 10 degrees. So it can only aim at 0deg, 10deg, 20deg, etc. Lots of older games do this.

Cool thanks, what about enemies spawning on your at your y position (fixed x) or even bullets (who made these rules anyway, moses!! )
tight latch positions sounds like the way to go with me then. Ill have to learn what style of command to use, never realy done that .

[trap15]

Enemies spawning based on your position is normal (see Batrider stage 1's jetpack guys for a great example of this), but having them on the same position probably wouldn't work too well.

Also, I'd either recommend moving the HUD elements out of the main game screen, making the HUD elements smaller (probably the best choice), or making the game screen taller; it's really hard to play when the effective view aspect ratio is like 3:1

[BPzeBanshee]

Randomness is generally A Bad Idea (tm). There's a reason you so rarely see it in commercial STG. It doesn't lend itself to a fair and competitive gameplay experience.

Even random angles when colliding with something? and random gravity on stuff, to mix it up a bit ? absolutely no random then, on anything ?

(being trying it and its made the game alot harder actually , you come to fear certain situations)
thanks for the feedback

trap15 can correct me on this but in Batrider (and Battle Garegga where it's really noticeable) there is randomisation used in the explosion effects. These said explosions effects, however, have absolutely no effect on gameplay at all whatsoever. It's when it does actually affect gameplay that it's an issue - and in this regard fancy visual background effects are the same deal.

I gave it a go just now and noticed the enemies and stuff aren't affected by the background warping which is good: the only issue I really have left for this game other than what's already been covered by n0rtygames and trap15 (agree with the aspect ratio thing although it's probably not easy to fix if it was widescreen to begin with) is that the invulnerability rate from losing a life feels a bit too short (it's like 20 frames).

[railslave]

Randomness is generally A Bad Idea (tm). There's a reason you so rarely see it in commercial STG. It doesn't lend itself to a fair and competitive gameplay experience.

Even random angles when colliding with something? and random gravity on stuff, to mix it up a bit ? absolutely no random then, on anything ?

(being trying it and its made the game alot harder actually , you come to fear certain situations)
thanks for the feedback

trap15 can correct me on this but in Batrider (and Battle Garegga where it's really noticeable) there is randomisation used in the explosion effects. These said explosions effects, however, have absolutely no effect on gameplay at all whatsoever. It's when it does actually affect gameplay that it's an issue - and in this regard fancy visual background effects are the same deal.

I gave it a go just now and noticed the enemies and stuff aren't affected by the background warping which is good: the only issue I really have left for this game other than what's already been covered by n0rtygames and trap15 (agree with the aspect ratio thing although it's probably not easy to fix if it was widescreen to begin with) is that the invulnerability rate from losing a life feels a bit too short (it's like 20 frames).

What score you getting ? ive taken all the randomization out (although sometimes on a second play its like the games been playing its self for 5 minutes in the background?)
The big bullets knocks the jewels about a bit (in the latest build which isnt up yet the jewels knock each other about, its absolute chaos in slow mo , i need some spark effects like f.e.a.r. haha).
Ill work on that invincibility time. Ill make a new backdrop soon before this one drives me insane

[BPzeBanshee]

Well I'm kinda sucking at the moment but I got 1170 on my last run just now. Didn't last very long.

A suggestion regarding the HUD: If you could tweak the positioning of stuff so that all the stuff ie. lives and the score bar thing on the left are as far left/up/down without cutting them off (so that there's no space between the words and the edge of the screen), that'd be a step in the right direction towards getting a good HUD working (not that it isn't good now but there's always room for improvement!).