I respect main stream gaming

[Acid King]

Max Payne, Kill Switch, Red Dead Revolver, Punisher, GTA= 3rd person shooters.
Actually, I like em a lot!
Label me under "FPS suck with a mouse" catagory.

I couldn't imagine playing Max Payne, especially Max Payne 2 (Dead Man Walking!), with a controller.

[No_not_like_Quake]

I haven't read any posts in this thread, as I'm drinking and ireading too much might lower my buzz....anyway this is the way I see it. If I enjoy a game, I play it. I have no guilt whatsoever if it's considered mainstream. I've been enjoying that Mercenaries demo on Xbox. The game intrigues me.

[sethsez]

The average gamer can breathe a sigh of relief and go a bugger a hooker, take a crack and smoke ecstasy pipes on GTA now that we approve of his taste in 'wares.

Yes, because everyone who likes GTA plays it for the theme, and not *gasp* for the gameplay!



Everyone who complains about gaming these days should go back to the NES days (or Atari, or C64, or Amiga or whatever else if you're so inclined) and look at the games that were released.

Really. Look at them. All of them.

Crap games are nothing new. Games didn't start to suck with the rise of 3D, because there have always been more than enough bad games to satisfy people who wanted to bitch about how the good ol' days were so much better. And I have to wonder... what's so bad about "racing crap" anyway? It's a game of skill, can be played and beaten in half an hour if you're so inclined, relies on reflexes (though memorization can help)... what genre does this sound like? There's nothing clever about being anti-popular... if you have a reason for hating something, fine, but "a lot of people like it" isn't a valid one.

This reminds me of a friend of mine back in Maine. He loves horror movies. LOVES them. Now, I do too (my icon makes this pretty obvious), but I watch other movies as well. Not him, though... if it's not horror, it sucks. It's "weak." He refuses to watch Lord of the Rings because "it's just a big special effects orgy and it butchers the plot of the book." Now, he hasn't actually seen it beyond trailers, but by god, it's popular, it had a huge budget, and it's not his favorite genre, so it must be awful.

I told him he was being an idiot. To this day he still hasn't seen it. Still doesn't stop him from ranting about how overrated it is, though. Apparantly it's okay to judge something without giving it a fair shot if it's popular. God forbid anyone insult horror, though. Then they're just stupid lemmings who should give it a chance first.

With that said, I'm very glad to see that most people in this thread have varied tastes. Personally, I'm still trying to get through Ninja Gaiden (anyone who complains about modern games being too easy needs to take this puppy for a spin), and I'm enjoying RE4 very much. Not for the gore (as someone implied... really, who cares about game gore?), but for the extremely balanced and addictive gameplay, and the fantastic atmosphere.

[99pence]

The average gamer can breathe a sigh of relief and go a bugger a hooker, take a crack and smoke ecstasy pipes on GTA now that we approve of his taste in 'wares.

Yes, because everyone who likes GTA plays it for the theme, and not *gasp* for the gameplay!

For all anyone knows I've been playing Outrun 2 etc all day but I don't have to pat myself on the back on an internet forum at how great and varied my taste in games is. And how I'm not a snob and jolly well love all those chart games all those other chaps play. What.

GTA wouldn't be anywhere near half as popular if it wasn't for the theme.

If someone doesn't like most modern games that's up to them, doesn't mean they're a snob, they are very different to the "golden era" games. 2D platformers for example sadly are stuck in the dark ages. Hows about a 128 bit Powel Shovel and RC de Go while you're at it, oh you can only sell 3D adventures, racing games and sports sequals. Nevermind. Lucky average gamer though eh.

[sethsez]

GTA wouldn't be anywhere near half as popular if it wasn't for the theme.

The series did okay for the first two games. However, it didn't really take off until GTA3, when it went 3D and at the same time added a bunch of gameplay elements and fine-tuned things that didn't work in the previous two games.

In addition, GTA clones don't do well. On the off chance that they do, their sales tend to crash once people find out that the gameplay sucks.

The theme might have gotten the series some attention, but that's not why it's still around. It took off when the gameplay improved, and the clones don't do well for the same reason.

If someone doesn't like most modern games that's up to them, doesn't mean they're a snob, they are very different to the "golden era" games. 2D platformers for example sadly are stuck in the dark ages. Hows about a 128 bit Powel Shovel and RC de Go while you're at it, oh you can only sell 3D adventures, racing games and sports sequals. Nevermind. Lucky average gamer though eh.

You seem to be complaining about a lack of variety, but replace "3D adventures" (which is really broad and could include everything from Ninja Gaiden to Silent Hill to Metroid Prime) with "2D platformers" and that's how it was back in the S/NES days as well.

Unless you count RPGs, puzzle games, niche games a la Katamari, strategy games, fighters, the music game subgenre, etc.

Nobody is patting themselves on the back. We're just talking about the other games we happen to enjoy aside from shmups. Why you decided to be sarcastic with your "well now the GTA masses can breathe a sigh of relief" comment baffles me.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

To be honest here, I hate the term "mainstream games". Games will always be games. Games in general are more popular then they used to be when say, back when the 2600VCS was out.
Just because a game is mainstream, doesn't mean it will suck.

I've posted this before, but remember back in the Genesis/Turbo Grafx days...games like ThunderForce III were the NORM! Every issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly featured at least 3 reviews and or previews about "Wee Spaceship Shooties".
The launch of the Turbo Duo came bundled with a shmup, Gate of Thunder.
Also, remember Sol Feace? Well, it was bundled with the Sega CD. Know what this means? It means our loved genre was at one time "mainstream"!!! Do we "suck" because of it?

I don't feel any more guilty or trendy playing Gran Turismo, than back when I was playing Night Driver, Enduro Racer (VCS2600) Even TURBO with the steering wheel (Coleco Vision)

If its anything I dislike, its the way "mainstream gamers" have changed gaming as we know it.
Nowadays, every game has to have "unlockables", online play, and "replay value". Otherwise it gets poor reviews written by journalism wannabee's that judge a game by how their 5 year old reacts to it.

Most of todays gamers will only play a game once...usually with the aid of a "guide-book" or the internet.
What is replay value? Different color clothing for the main character? NO!! Its how much fun the game was/is, the fact the fact that you will continue to enjoy it for years to come.

Anyway, I'm a video game player, plain and simple. Mainstream/trendy/classic/forgotten/sports/shmups/platformer/FPS/racer/survival horror/ hack n slash/ run n gun/RPG/flight sim..etc ,etc.

[Super Mega C]

As bad as most new 2D games are these days, I'm glad developers are doing 3D. That way when they screw up it doesn't feel so heart breaking. Take the gameboy advance. Excluding ports it has quite a few really good games. The problem is that 32 bit hardware is pretty meaningless because most of them could have been done on the Genesis. Guardian Heros Advance for example, Play magazine trumpeted this game almost as the second coming, but the thing is if it had been released during the late 16 bit era it would have been dubbed mediocre at best. I'm all for new 2D games (more than you can imagine), but unless developers are willing to raise that bar then they need to just quit. Look no further than Nintendo's two GBA Metroid games to see silky smooth 2D gameplay at it's finest. The way the gameplay responds to the player's control is so refined it's amazing. Animation and hit detection are superb, unlike Guardian Heros where I can count the frames on my right hand. 2D isn't dead, but 16 bit is. If developers are ever going to be successful with 2D then they're going to have to quit making 16 bit games.

I know that's a little OT so let me just say I like a lot of main stream games, some that I never dreamed I would like. Jak 3 kicks ass, but I could do without prince of persia 2. My biggest grip with todays 3D games is that a lot of them have less depth than many of my NES games. And I envy you xbox people. From what I've read and heard about "Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath" it's awsome. Give me the scoop on what you think if any of you have played it yet. I don't envy you too much though. In a couple of months or so I'll be playing "God of War", so there

[DantesInferno]

Anyway, I'm a video game player, plain and simple. Mainstream/trendy/classic/forgotten/sports/shmups/platformer/FPS/racer/survival horror/ hack n slash/ run n gun/RPG/flight sim..etc ,etc.

As am I, I wish there were more of us around.

[zimeon]

Oneof the things that makes me hesitate with modern games is the enourmous amount of time you're supposed to put into it. I quit playing RPGs because there was no way in the world I could play a game that required me 80+ of playtime to finish it. It would take me months!

Which is why I nowadays prefer homemade, smaller games, that you can finish in ten minutes. Meaning, retro games.

Modern "mainstream" games are probably fantastic. I just don't have the time to invest in them.

[system11]

Late to the party as usual.

I'll agree with the first posting on this, mainstream gaming isn't all bad, although many mainstream gamers are. Just a shame the modern games are (in the West at least) being made/played to the exclusion of all else good and holy.

Now is probably one of the best times for gaming that I can remember, perhaps not as fun as the good old days (and what could be?), but certainly far far better than the dark ages of the late 90s and early 2000s. Sure there were good games, but we were still in the realm of developers insisting 3D was the way to go, while 3D graphics were still very rough around the edges. Still nobody seems to be able to make a decent camera however outside of racing games.

What's really lifted it up at the moment, for me, is the advent of workable online community gaming. While I'm as anti-Mirco$oft as they come, credit where it's due and Xbox Live is the first truly working online experience. Why? PC gaming online has always been plagued with inequality of hardware, cheating, disparate servers, and PCs suck for games anyway - do you really want to have to /install/ something and chew GBs of space to do so? Madness. Sony and PS2 online was a huge case of the ball being dropped, down a well. Leaving it open for developers to do what they wanted in this one key area (while strangely still forbidding them from making 2d games - make your mind up Sony, open or closed?) led to a similar situation as the PC arena - but without the cheaters, mostly. Also not building in headset functionality right from the start was more than a little omission.

Enter Xbox Live. A single sign on with non-reusable names so you pretty much know if you're speaking to someone on your list, it actually is them. Because it is centralised, it's opened the way for proper working friend lists, with the ability to send messages even between different games, see what friends are playing and so on. As with the PS2, it's very difficult to cheat past game glitches which anyone could do, and Microsofts policy of kicking off modded consoles will only help it stay that way (even if it probably isn't the real reason they do it). Everyone has the same hardware too, the same update speed, and with a few notable exceptions (EA games, which 'do their own thing' with disasterous results) PAL gamers can play NTSC without any kind of issue. You can even use it as a low cost net telephone if both people have xbox live - works quite well too. Final example - let's say you're into clan based games, there's a match and 6 of your people are all playing different things. Just try gathering them on any other setup, without the use of a telephone, IRC, or similar. It Just Works. Well done Microsoft! (something you're likely to never see me say, ever again).

I can be found on Xbox Live most evenings, usually on Rainbow Six Black Arrow. If we have any other Outrun 2 players here, let's all hook up - there's myself and Desangre for starters.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

"Going back to the topic on hand, it's not that mainstream gaming sucks per se. Shmups used to be mainstream. But when it's been cheapened by countless GTA, MGS wannabees and licensed and watered-down crap, well... it's like choosing to play Ikaruga VS sucking on a rusty nail. Not a hard choice, is it? Wink "

Well said bro!

That pretty well sums up what mainstream gaming is today, and that's why I'm not interested in it.

That's also why I own an import PSTwo; that's a next gen console that you can buy nothing BUT shmups for (and plenty, too); it's the most shmup-friendly of the big 3 and that's why I like it the best.

Sure, you can emulate on the Xbox, but I can already try out pretty much any game I want on our PC, and I'm not comfortable with emulation aside from trying out games.

funny how things change in a matter of weeks!

[Super Mega C]

Shmups used to be mainstream..

I'm not sure I buy this, becuase when you think about it the people who played and loved 16bit games aren't the same people who play PS2 games. Now I don't mean us, obviously, or anyone else who grew up playing 8 and 16 bit systems, but the market has broadend so much since then you can't really compare the two time frames. For example I know a dude that works at the local GameStop who loves playing games. He'll play Halo on Xbox live for hours at a time, and he reserves everything coming in that's minutely worth a damn. So what sets him apart from us? He hates 2d games. He seriously can't stand them. My point is that games have only truly reached the masses in recent years, and the kind of people who would buy shmups today are the same kind that would buy them 15 years ago. I, personaly, wouldn't exactly call that mainstream.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

^ The man is got a point. Mainstreamers are mostly 2d haters. They can hate us because we're the same small bunch of old 'kool geeks who bought shooters 15 yeears ago.

Not me, to tell the truth, I was only five.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Quote from above^ "people who played and loved 16bit games aren't the same people who play PS2 games."

Yea, thats because they weren't even born yet!

Mainstream=Popular
Nowadays, FPS are popular, which is why your friend at GameStop plays em so much.

Back in the 16 bit era, not only were these games cool, but, yes, they were also popular.
Its really no different. Just like back then the Sega CD came packed with Sol-Feace, and the Turbo Duo was packed with Gate Of Thunder, every issue of EGM featured at least 3 reviews along with "2 pager" articles about these "shmups". Nowadays, the XBOX comes bundled with the likes of Halo, and every issue is choked full of FPS and "free roaming online stuff".

[Ganelon]

Or even easier, remembering when 2D fighting was the highest selling genre back around 1992-1994?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Or even easier, remembering when 2D fighting was the highest selling genre back around 1992-1994?

Yea, but 2D fighters(Capcom) are still going strong and have even "mainstreamers" respect. This is good, but I would like Capcom to put some emphisis on all those "WWII airplane" games they have floating around in JAMMA land.

Can you imagine?
CAPCOM VS PSIKYO "Loop Master VS. Strikers".

Capcom, I hope you read this!!! Getting any new idea's?

[Ganelon]

Strong? Capcom only has 1 or 2 2D animators remaining, if that. Only 2 companies in the world still put out 2D fighters. Basically, 2D fighters have long since gone the way of the dinosaurs and mentally insane, formerly bankrupt companies.

Just consider that the best looking 2D fighter was released back in 1997 and the last 2D fighter that managed to hit GH status was SFA3 for the PS from 1999.

[neorichieb1971]

2D games to me are like Rock n roll music. Its timeless, it will always have it fans.

3D is more like a fashion, what was "in" 2 years ago is now dead beat. Those people playing Halo 2 now will say its crap 2 years from now!

Also, people have to mature in the gaming world. For the first 5 years of my console gaming life it was all about the graphics. Now its about gameplay because companies are just putting new paint on old projects.

If you remember when the ps1 phase started, Resident evil came out, Tomb Raider etc. Those games had 3 games each on just the PSone yet they did not deliver more than the first game! The story advanced, the graphics some what, but basically the games were very much the same.

A console generation later even more people join the console gaming fraternity and start buying halo 1,2 and 3.. Eventually they will come to realize that they are playing the same stuff again and again. Then like me they will become bored with just graphics and take a look at other genres and possibly 2D. Then the cycle repeats again and again.


So basically, a few mainstreamers explore the surface and will eventually find the fruits of the deeper aspects of gaming. Most will just drop off and move along to something else. But one thing is for sure, the big name games will always attract those who just want an immersion fix into realistic graphics. There will never be a shortage of those.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

@ the above poster..."The same stuff again and again?"
If a game is good and enjoyable, it does not matter if its in 3D or not, or even what genre it is.

How many CAVE games can you play before its the "same stuff" again and again?

3D games can be timeless too, we're just going to have to give them time to age...although, some will "age" better or worse than others.

So, just as a "layman" can say Halo 1,2 and 3 are the same shit, a "layman" can also say shmups are pretty much the same shit as well.
See my point here?

[judesalmon]

Why do people even bother posting topics about mainstream gaming here - the usual morons come along and bemoan it and say that shmupping or 2D gaming is the only real gaming.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, MAINSTREAM GAMING IS HERE TO STAY AND IT IS ACTUALLY GOOD, SO STOP MOANING YOU MISERABLE OLD GITS!

[Ord]

Why do people even bother posting topics about mainstream gaming here - the usual morons come along and bemoan it and say that shmupping or 2D gaming is the only real gaming.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, MAINSTREAM GAMING IS HERE TO STAY AND IT IS ACTUALLY GOOD, SO STOP MOANING YOU MISERABLE OLD GITS!

I agree.

[99pence]

I don't know why people feel they have to defend 3D games there must be 100,000+ average gamers to every 1 2D game enthusiast. And 99% of those 2D gamers play 3D games so STFU.

If someone says yeah I'm hella into 2D games, it sucks they hardly get made these days and most of the best ones were back in the day whats the problem with that. Its the truth. They are a different genre, and like I say these people are still usually giving it some stick on any decent 3D stuff.

What the hell people.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

What the hell?

Well, I'll tell ya...
The initial post/poster was stating that not only does he enjoy shoot-em-ups, but he also enjoys newer games as well.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[dave4shmups]

I respect mainstream gaming too. I just asked for an XBOX for my birthday!

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

^ I respect gaming...in general!

[FatCobra]

There's nothing wrong with mainstream gaming.....there were crap licensed titles back in the NES days too..

I think it's the mentality of the common gamer that is wrong, however. "Replay value" to them is a new costume or level, and games are designed to be "thrown away." After you finish it, you don't want to play anymore and more on to the next one. That's how devs and publishers make money...otherwise no-one would buy new games.

It's not about the unlockable content, it's not about achieving 100% completion, it's the journey from point A to B that truely makes a game replayable, it's about having FUN. A game could be the greatest techinical masterpiece with excellent gameplay, but is it FUN?

I like racing games, and those are as mainstream as they come...and they actually improved thanks to new technology. But sometimes I get tired of career racing and just want to pick a car, a track, and try to get to the next checkpoint before time runs out. It's just FUN. Who cares if you unlock something?

And that's what I think is wrong with mainstream gamers, they want the game to throw them a bone, they want to unlock stuff. Nothing wrong with a sweet reward for skilled play, but that is not the point of the game.

The good ol' days were about reaching the end of the level and whooping the boss's ass or trying to obtain the highest score possible. For some reason, these old school values simply went out of style..

Nothing wrong with mainstream games, it's just the gamers who play them that need to change.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

^Hey FatCobra, I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to my posts, but you pretty much feel the same exact way I do!!!
Everything from "replay value" to "career racers".... Do I have a twin that I'm not aware of!? Two minds thinking alike, thats weird...

See my first few posts here in this thread regarding "replay value", and refer to that thread about Midway Arcade Treasures 3 (the racing one). Thats where I talk about those "career racers".

Here's a quote of mine, from this thread...
"If its anything I dislike, its the way "mainstream gamers" have changed gaming as we know it.
Nowadays, every game has to have "unlockables", online play, and "replay value". Otherwise it gets poor reviews written by journalism wannabee's that judge a game by how their 5 year old reacts to it.

Most of todays gamers will only play a game once...usually with the aid of a "guide-book" or the internet.
What is replay value? Different color clothing for the main character? NO!! Its how much fun the game was/is, the fact the fact that you will continue to enjoy it for years to come. "

Here's quote number two, from the STUN RUNNER thread:
"Its a racer's dream compilation. I'm tired of "career type/ tuner racers", I want some instant arcade racing action!"

[FatCobra]

^Heh, I guess we are on the same wavelength Twitch.

I am also excited about Midway Treasures 3, the Rush series is one of my favorite racing games of all time.

Speaking of Rush, I've noticed that the R* guys must have liked Rush as well. For example: The N64 Rush games had keys hidden throughout the different tracks. When collected, new faster cars would be unlocked. Well, the GTA games have hidden packages, when collected, spawns free weapons at the player's hideout. In Rush 2, a Mustang-like car is called the Stallion, and guess what? There's a Stallion in GTA as well. Rush also has those huge jumps, and GTA has Unqiue Stunts. Concidence? I think not. R* is paying tribute to the Rush series.

[99pence]

Oh no Sonic Mega Collection is riding high in the european game charts. That must mean 2D platformers are mainstream. Quick somebody get out the charts and the spreadsheets. We need to have a mass debate to figure this all out.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

^Man, I really don't think anyone is finding your sarcasm entertaining.
I don't understand what you are getting at here?