Darius Gaiden dilema

[toaplan_shmupfan]

It's clear to me that the default autofire rate in Darius Gaiden only intended to be a continuous fire rather than a rapid fire (i.e., so that the fire button doesn't have to be constantly pressed even for smaller enemies), and so I don't consider hyper firing to be cheating if and only if it is done manually by button pressing as fast as possible.

Specifically, tapping two buttons on a console controller (or alternating using two fingers to rapidly tap a button in an arcade type setting) is not only effective in Darius Gaiden but also several other Taito published Toaplan shooters such as Sky Shark, Twin Cobra, Truxton, and Outzone. If someone wants to press a single button as fast as they can, of course that's also valid as well.

It's also okay if code-assisted or hardware assisted hyper autofiring is used to complete the game in a home setting, but I would not suggest claiming to have beaten the game as far as claiming scores or records when using such an accelerated firing rate.

[GaijinPunch]

The 2nd level boss goes down like a cheap whore if you get the first level of that plasma thing -- noticeably quicker than the last level of the lasers.

[FER]

The 2nd level boss goes down like a cheap whore if you get the first level of that plasma thing -- noticeably quicker than the last level of the lasers.

I recall somewhere in this forum was suggested it was that way, would be more sensible than getting a stronger boss just for getting a weak wave shot (DG is evil but has its limits I guess)

Just curious but whats that self destruct thing I keep seeing being done against the end bosses? they get damaged just as time passes?

[FER]

Sorry, really sorry to revive this thread but just found this guy finally recording videos which show that darius gaiden can be beaten normally.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MathUDX/vid ... rid&view=0

[MathU]

Uh oh, it seems I've been outed. Well I think I better say something in-depth on this.

Knowing what I do about the game now, I can say with certainty that Darius Gaiden was not designed with autofire in mind and that the 30 Hz autofire found in the Extra Version hack and as a cheat in the console ports does indeed break it. There is one thing only that helps to curtail the massive advantage that autofire gives you, and it's the fact that the game's adaptive difficulty increases very slightly whenever the shot button is pressed down. This dramatically increases the difficulty modifier when you abuse autofire; however, autofire still melts everything like butter and it isn't anywhere near enough to compensate. Only bosses and miniboss control orbs have increased health at higher difficulties. Other enemies shoot faster, come in larger waves, and are more aggressive, but the sad reality is that with autofire you still blow them away before they can even do anything threatening. While boss attack patterns do require more skill to avoid at higher difficulties, you can avoid the vast majority of them by simply doing damage so fast that they switch out of an attack phase immediately and don't even present the other attacks from that phase.

So what exactly is lost when you cheat with autofire in Darius Gaiden? I see it as several things. For one, you don't need to develop anywhere near (if any at all) the amount of skill with rockets that the game normally demands. Yes, these are actually a highly important part of your arsenal with a lot of skill behind their use normally, and they are a larger source of attack power than your main shot without autofire. With autofire, you can rely on your main shot to do just about everything for you. Another thing lost is the utility of difficulty control. Normally Darius Gaiden's adaptive difficulty scales with things that give you more points (including forcing you to make some choices on which point sources you want to go after), but with autofire you really don't need to pay any attention to these. With autofire, you also miss out on a huge number of cool boss attacks, which are supposed to be one of Gaiden's big selling points. Some people think Gaiden is a bit of a cheap game, but I can explain in detail how to consistently avoid everything it can throw at you (without bombing) except for a single boss attack.

Finally, and this is somewhat of a meta aspect, but the way I see it there's an interesting dynamic going on when you have the ability to mash the shot button. When you're in a safe spot where you know what's coming next or you're confident in your ability to avoid something, you can mash the shot button without thinking to make it end quicker. When you're playing desperately to survive, you can choose to hold down the button and just concentrate on dodging or mash the hell out of it for a great adrenaline rush. This extra layer of choice in the game is entirely lost when you cheat with autofire.


I think the biggest misconception surrounding people's choice to use autofire in Darius Gaiden is the idea that the default firing rate is useless and requires you to mash. This is not true though; using the weapons you have available properly, there are only a couple instances in the entire game where you genuinely have to do anything other than merely hold the shot button down (one of which is Great Thing, and the epic, extreme length of that boss fight is kind of the entire point of it). In all others, mashing does help you get through things quicker, but it is essential neither to simply survive nor to get through boss attack phases in a timely fashion.

[Kollision]

Very nice post with which I agree - to the extent of what I can remember from the game.

[FER]

I get the impression players think this game has to be played like a manic shooter akin to dodonpachi and attempt to squeeze between bullets, when its closer to the pattern oriented games like r-type where you must use all the resources available to beat the game, and as MathU said, you can actually avoid boss attacks by being at the right place.
Sure you can mash the buttons if you want but you can do just as fine by holding it, and even better with an actual strategy and knowledge about the layout of the stage and bosses, the extra lifes and golden icons.

BTW point out about that bug within the arcade version that makes king fossil rank up.

[DMC]

I think the biggest misconception surrounding people's choice to use autofire in Darius Gaiden is the idea that the default firing rate is useless and requires you to mash.

I dont think it is about any misconception. I think it is simply the case that most players on these boards generally prefer to play with high-rate autofire. If for you instance take a look at the stgt, virtually all games are played with rapid autofire, so why make an exception for Darius Gaiden. The developer may not have intented from the start to have autofire with that rate, but they included it as an option in the Saturn port and then as a default choice in the Ps2 port. So I don't think it is a misconception but rather a cultural preference.

[KAI]

Button smashing is the reason why I love this game, anyone using autofire is missing the fun of it (and cheating).

[FER]

The ps2 port has autofire? the taito legends version? I have it but never noticed it.

Btw the reason many people use the hack autofire is because it seemed impossible to beat the game normally. This guy did it, on more than one route.

Its fine to use autofire as long as it doesnt break the game (this game), take strikers 1945II, Dragon Blaze or Gunbird2 for example.

[KAI]

Impossible? I've never used autofire, and I've cleared and no-missed this game dozen of times.
Autofire breaks this game, some bosses attacks are easier to counter with autofire.

[MathU]

BTW point out about that bug within the arcade version that makes king fossil rank up.

On Normal difficulty, King Fossil’s body parts are worth the same adaptive difficulty increase as a stage 7 boss's body parts, which is twice the value they should be. It has a major impact on the game when you're playing for score. This is a bug in the arcade version (all regions), but was fixed in the Saturn and Playstation ports. I'm not sure if the PS2 Taito Legends 2 version has it, but as all the games on the PC and Xbox version are arcade ROMs running on a modified MAME build I'm guessing it does.

Also that's odd that the PS2 version has super autofire on by default. The PC version certainly doesn't. I hear the PS2 version has some other issues with games that the other versions don't have too, like the machine gun not working right in Elevator Action Returns.

[EmperorIng]

First you guys tell me autofire is ok.

Now you tell me it's not ok.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

(takes notes for next run)

[Seahawk]

It's definitely not impossible without autofire, it is a gamepad wrecker though.

Me doing it: A B C

Incomplete Darius Gaiden rank analysis

[MathU]

I've been working on (well not lately) a very comprehensive guide to Darius Gaiden myself, which will include a full rank breakdown.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

virtually all games are played with rapid autofire, so why make an exception for Darius Gaiden.

Because most old school arcade shmups do not have a preset firing rate to ease up on your fingers.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The thing is, joypads' face buttons are no fun to mash on like that. With arcade sticks and cabs (and keyboards, to an extent) the experience is better. I can understand how working out adds to the gaming experience, but with a joypad it really works this way for me when I can map the fire onto the PlayStation-style R2 trigger. Honestly, if I could use R2 for fire in Baraduke, I wouldn't need arcade sticks for 2D shooters. (Psyvariar isn't really a shooting game, is it?)

[BPzeBanshee]

whinge whinge autofire is cheating etc

When Mushihimesama got a 360 port announced one of the first things that got brought up was multiple autofire configs. I didn't see anyone slamming said persons down for 'cheating' or 'taking the easy route'.

I didn't see anyone complaining about Battle Garegga having arcade cabinets with something like 6 buttons including all the autofire switches in Japan as used by world record players, nor did I see complaints about configurations for modifying the firerate in any other Yagawa game.

STGT has constant use of autofire whether a in-game autofire is provided or not. I didn't see many complain about it, but the few that complain there seem to have got told to STFU and GTFO pretty quick.

Frankly I fail to see any real credibility in the arguments for not using autofire for this game specifically. Use it or don't. I really don't care either way - it's two ways of getting the same result in playing the damn game. It really just seems like people using this game as a whinge point about autofire being the 'easy route' is frankly just being either
A) an elitist old-schooler who doesn't like software solutions at all
B) not appreciating just how bad RSI in your hand gets from banging a button for x minutes
C) has never had a hand injury in their lifetime and thus is ignorant of it
D) feeling in a particular excuse-puking mood because this isn't the best game in the world Moomihimemama Pootari
E) all of the above

Have fun guys. I'm gonna go play some game with my custom MAME Plus build using custom buttons and super mega ultra autofire to be a massive cheating cunt and have some fun of my own while you guys continue to bicker about the legitimacy of it all like its such a serious controversial issue because that's the erry day talk of Shumps Farm.

[Kaiser]

whinge whinge autofire is cheating etc

When Mushihimesama got a 360 port announced one of the first things that got brought up was multiple autofire configs. I didn't see anyone slamming said persons down for 'cheating' or 'taking the easy route'.

I didn't see anyone complaining about Battle Garegga having arcade cabinets with something like 6 buttons including all the autofire switches in Japan as used by world record players, nor did I see complaints about configurations for modifying the firerate in any other Yagawa game.

STGT has constant use of autofire whether a in-game autofire is provided or not. I didn't see many complain about it, but the few that complain there seem to have got told to STFU and GTFO pretty quick.

Frankly I fail to see any real credibility in the arguments for not using autofire for this game specifically. Use it or don't. I really don't care either way - it's two ways of getting the same result in playing the damn game. It really just seems like people using this game as a whinge point about autofire being the 'easy route' is frankly just being either
A) an elitist old-schooler who doesn't like software solutions at all
B) not appreciating just how bad RSI in your hand gets from banging a button for x minutes
C) has never had a hand injury in their lifetime and thus is ignorant of it
D) feeling in a particular excuse-puking mood because this isn't the best game in the world Moomihimemama Pootari
E) all of the above

Have fun guys. I'm gonna go play some game with my custom MAME Plus build using custom buttons and super mega ultra autofire to be a massive cheating cunt and have some fun of my own while you guys continue to bicker about the legitimacy of it all like its such a serious controversial issue because that's the erry day talk of Shumps Farm.

The amount of elitist dumbasses on this forum is so large no wonder people stay away from us. I mean come on, there's no way we should restrict players from playing how they want. I saw idiots complaining about me NOT PLAYING for score, I saw idiots complaining about legimitacy of autofire, OF SAVE-STATE practice. Idiots everywhere here complaining about everything.

And how about that VixyNyan controversy, sure she cheated and it was inappriopate. BUT WHAT was really unnecessary were the reactions, you could have just said "It's not cool dude" but no, you guys went beyoooooooond that and layed personal attacks on that person, made fun of her personal stuff. I mean come on, we all love trolling from time to time but it has it's own limits. I'll make it clear, no person deserves to be treated like trash because they broke some rules, plus we should'nt judge what to do with them because that's what we have moderators/admins for.

While some people get away with cheating and even applauded for it, see recent STGT. Examples include trap15's V-V score. So let me get this straight, this forum is not seen as a good one because of the sheer idiocy that happens in Shmups Chat/Offtopic, either we deal with it or we let people see us a bunch of selfish rich dudes with elitist attitude.

[trap15]

My score wasn't included because some people felt that using what the game gives you is unfair. Just for what that's worth.

[MathU]

Frankly I fail to see any real credibility in the arguments for not using autofire for this game specifically.

Would you care to refute any of the specific arguments I've given? As I've said and demonstrated very clearly in the videos given, you really don't need to mash like crazy to beat Darius Gaiden; the default firing rate is perfectly adequate for 99% of the situations the game throws at you. This isn't a game like Image Fight or some of the earlier Darius games where you need to slam on that fire button constantly to get anywhere at all in the game. The game literally came equipped with its own rapidfire that was designed to alleviate this very complaint. I think there's only been one post in this entire thread where someone seemed to be "slamming" other people for using it, and I agree I was being an elitist. All I'm trying to say now is you're really denying yourself of some of the things that make Darius Gaiden so great when you demolish it with autofire.

I love this game so much and it makes me sad seeing people beat it and trivialize it with autofire and never touch it again and from the experience thinking less of it somehow. If you want the most out of your Darius Gaiden experience, don't use that ridiculous 30Hz autofire.

[Erppo]

I believe the only issue here is people saying the autofire is cheating. This is dumb, since using it falls withing the generally accepted rules of the competitive scoring, which means it's not.

This is of course a separate issue from which way of playing people like more, and in there I agree that I have enjoyed the game more when limiting myself to the standard fire rate only. Simply making a separate scoreboard for non-autofire would solve everything. (Although I'd personally prohibit button mashing too and make it default rate only, I find it stupid you can increase your power that way)

Hadn't seen those videos previously. Thanks for making those, there's some really nice stuff in them.

[KAI]

button mashing=cheating
lolol

[Erppo]

button mashing=cheating
lolol

Can you even read or are you just spouting unrelated nonsense?

[KAI]

I'm spouting related nonsense.

Autofire is cheting in this case, it makes the game easier.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

If we were to go as far as banning button mashing, I'd also suggest banning Zone V to make things more interesting. Seriously, is there anyone who actually enjoys fighting Risk Storage over the other 6 end bosses instead of just whoring out the easy route?

[MathU]

I find Risk Storage to be a much more interesting boss than Hysteric Empress and maybe Vermillion Coronatus, especially when trying to squeeze as many points out of it as possible.

I think the best way to play Darius Gaiden competitively though would be to simply segregate high scores by their final zones. This would encourage people to play other routes for points, which can be equally as fulfilling as the very highest scoring routes even though in the end it's impossible to match the scores on them. Trying to compare scores between routes like ABDGLRW and ACFJOUV' is essentially like comparing scores between two completely different games.

[moh]

w/o outofire, you get to stay on the bosses for a little longer and groove to the rad new wave music.

hell yes.

I have actually hooked up my saturn to my integrated amp, and just let DG's sound test run all day.

good shit.

[FER]

I started this thread because I tought Shmups arent easy to begin with, and theres certainly harder games out there than darius gaiden.
Thats the reason we play shmups, right? high challenge games.

So far most responses I see are people talking about hand injuries (apparently they rather tap the buttons rather than use the normal autofire) and some saying its impossible to beat or that it takes 30 minutes to beat a single boss (unjustified as bosses from other shmups can take as long)
Now, I dont crucify players who do use the hax autofire nor anything, I just found it completely unnecesary and gamebreaking at some point.

[Erppo]

Thats the reason we play shmups, right? high challenge games.

This is the part where we link the Futari Ultra scoreboard.