How many buttons should a vertical cabinet have?

[rCadeGaming]

I'm building a vertical arcade cabinet. I asked a similar question about what consoles it should support, and got some great responses here:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42322

Based on that, it will have support for Saturn, Dreamcast, PS2 (for PS1 games as well), and XBox 360, and MAME of course. If you think I should add others, please comment in that thread.

Ok, so in a vertical cabinet running those consoles, how many buttons should it have?

It will definitely have start, select, and menu (for 360 home button and stuff like that) but as far the main play buttons, how many to support all the vertical games for all those systems? It seems like most games use no more than three. What am I forgetting?

[AntiFritz]

Quite a few games use 4 buttons, such as espgaluda 1/2 and ddp dfk.

[drunkninja24]

DDP DFK uses 4 buttons.

[EllertMichael]

You could make due with 3.
BUT, if you want an Auto Fire button for Daifukkatsu & ESPGaluda II then go with 4.

"Fuck tappin' a fire, son my RAPPIN' is fire"

[chempop]

A few things to think about:

Several saturn games do not allow for remapping the buttons, i think DDP is one of them...
A + B buttons are pretty much required for navigating 360 menus
L + R are occasionally used for toggling menu screen (saturn's Garegga maybe..)

So even though most of these games only use 3 buttons in-game, you might want to just go with a 6 button layout to convenience sake.

[Erppo]

Mushihimesama needs at least 5!
Actually playing it for a while made me want even more buttons, two custom autofires aren't enough for everything.

You could make due with 3.
BUT, if you want an Auto Fire button for Daifukkatsu & ESPGaluda II then go with 4.

Daifukkatsu is impossible to play properly without the autofire button. You need it for the short shot taps which are essential in many places. Then there's BL which makes it even more required.

[shmuppyLove]

Doesn't the Saturn port of Radiant Silvergun have support for 6 buttons?

Personally, if I was building a cab, I wouldn't go with any fewer than 6 buttons. You never know when you might want to play some FIGHTANS

[moh]

Doesn't the Saturn port of Radiant Silvergun have support for 6 buttons?

Personally, if I was building a cab, I wouldn't go with any fewer than 6 buttons. You never know when you might want to play some FIGHTANS

mmhm, and if one day you want to run mame on that cab you could use the extra buttons for other shit too. (pause, insert coin, save/load state).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Doesn't the Saturn port of Radiant Silvergun have support for 6 buttons?

Have fun playing Radiant Silvergun and such on a "vertical cabinet". I'm pretty sure Einhänder, Thunder Force V (PSX) and, above all, R-Type Delta utilise even more buttons. R-Type Delta, at the end of the day, is a console shmup.

PS2 (for PS1 games as well)

I'm afraid among those few PSX games not perfectly playable on PS2 are some shmups, most notably Zanac Neo. I was under impression that Strikers 1945 II (PSX port) on the PS2 was laggier than it should be too.

[KAI]

Daoih - 6 Buttons
Some Doujit games have more than 4 buttons too.

[Meseki]

Some Doujit games have more than 4 buttons too.

And then there's Stella Vanity, which needs more than 6 buttons for S-Type (unless you want to sacrifice the Slow or Autofire button).

[DJ Incompetent]

I put 5 buttons on my vert cab. But I wired Start to be one of the main buttons. FTGs, Daioh, and RS are not worth the clutter.

Doesn't the Saturn port of Radiant Silvergun have support for 6 buttons?

Personally, if I was building a cab, I wouldn't go with any fewer than 6 buttons. You never know when you might want to play some FIGHTANS

mmhm, and if one day you want to run mame on that cab you could use the extra buttons for other shit too. (pause, insert coin, save/load state).

In MAME, 5 buttons allows enough flexibility to custom configure a wide variety of multibutton hotkeys without interfering with play.

[rCadeGaming]

First, let me say that the number of replies so fast is awesome

Quite a few games use 4 buttons, such as espgaluda 1/2 and ddp dfk.

DDP DFK uses 4 buttons.

Yeah, it was late when I typed the first post, I wasn't thinking. I already know of a couple with 4, just couldn't think of them. So my question should have been if I need more than four.

Doesn't the Saturn port of Radiant Silvergun have support for 6 buttons?

Personally, if I was building a cab, I wouldn't go with any fewer than 6 buttons. You never know when you might want to play some FIGHTANS

This cab will a vertically rotated monitor, so I won't be playing RS or fighting games on it. I'm making a separate cab with a horizontal monitor for that kind of stuff. More info on all that in my other thread I linked to at the top.

mmhm, and if one day you want to run mame on that cab you could use the extra buttons for other shit too. (pause, insert coin, save/load state).

MAME will be on it from the start. I've got all the admin type buttons covered, just thinking of how many for the main per-player buttons.

A few things to think about:

Several saturn games do not allow for remapping the buttons, i think DDP is one of them...
A + B buttons are pretty much required for navigating 360 menus
L + R are occasionally used for toggling menu screen (saturn's Garegga maybe..)

So even though most of these games only use 3 buttons in-game, you might want to just go with a 6 button layout to convenience sake.

Remapping isn't a problem. Each button will run through a rotary switch which allows you to manually remap it to any "button" on the controller PCB, independent of software.

You could make due with 3.
BUT, if you want an Auto Fire button for Daifukkatsu & ESPGaluda II then go with 4.

"Fuck tappin' a fire, son my RAPPIN' is fire"

Mushihimesama needs at least 5!
Actually playing it for a while made me want even more buttons, two custom autofires aren't enough for everything.

Daifukkatsu is impossible to play properly without the autofire button. You need it for the short shot taps which are essential in many places. Then there's BL which makes it even more required.

Turbo buttons are also not a problem, I'll have a 555 timer in the control circuit to allow for manual turbo buttons, also software independent. The 555's circuit will have a potentiometer to allow adjustment of the turbo speed with a knob. Each button's ground will run through a toggle switch so individual buttons can be set to normal or turbo.

I'm pretty sure Einhänder, Thunder Force V (PSX) and, above all, R-Type Delta utilise even more buttons. R-Type Delta, at the end of the day, is a console shmup.

I'm afraid among those few PSX games not perfectly playable on PS2 are some shmups, most notably Zanac Neo. I was under impression that Strikers 1945 II (PSX port) on the PS2 was laggier than it should be too.

I'll check if Zanac Neo and Strikers 1945 II are working well in MAME. Generally if something's in MAME I'll prefer that over a console port, unless the console port has less input lag or adds something significant to the game.

Do you know where to find a good list of PSX games with issues on PS2? Googled it to no avail. I can find lists of games that won't work at all, but nothing about games that are playable with issues; nothing mentioning input lag which is pretty important to me.

Daoih - 6 Buttons
Some Doujit games have more than 4 buttons too.

And then there's Stella Vanity, which needs more than 6 buttons for S-Type (unless you want to sacrifice the Slow or Autofire button).

I put 5 buttons on my vert cab. But I wired Start to be one of the main buttons. FTGs, Daioh, and RS are not worth the clutter.

In MAME, 5 buttons allows enough flexibility to custom configure a wide variety of multibutton hotkeys without interfering with play.

From what you guys are telling me, I'll need 6 buttons for some things. At that point I might as well go ahead and match the other cabinet and go with 7; Astro City button layout with 3 on the top, 4 on the bottom. I guess I'll be better safe than sorry, and in games with fewer buttons I can put the normal buttons on the bottom row and turbo on the top.

Thanks for helping me figure that out.

[shmuppyLove]

From what you guys are telling me, I'll need 6 buttons for some things. At that point I might as well go ahead and match the other cabinet and go with 7; Astro City button layout with 3 on the top, 4 on the bottom.

I've always thought the better way to do a hybrid 7-button layout would be with 4 on the top and 3 on the bottom:

O O O O
O O O

That way, your thumb can rest on the first button on the bottom row, and your fingers still have all 4 buttons on the top. If you do it the other way around:

O O O
O O O O

Then your pinky finger goes unused (although pinky is the weakest finger so maybe you wouldn't be using it much anyway)

[BIL]

I'll check if Zanac Neo... working well in MAME.

Zanac Neo isn't in MAME. It's an original game for the PS1. It's found on the Zanac X Zanac disc along with the Famicom and FDS versions of the original Zanac, plus a new arranged version of that game.

[KAI]

Zanac neo works fine for me on PS2. BTW, this game isn't tate

[rCadeGaming]

I've always thought the better way to do a hybrid 7-button layout would be with 4 on the top and 3 on the bottom

I prefer it this way:

O O O
O O O O

Obviously the six to the left are for street fighter style layouts, and then I like playing 1-4 button games with the bottom row. I don't like playing them on the top row because then you have unused buttons underneath your hand; they feel more "in your way" than when they're above your hand. It's a preference.

I don't think I've played any games where you're really supposed to use your thumb. Can you give me an example?

Keep in my mind I would play something like a NEO GEO game like this (O = used, X = unused)

X X X
O O O O

I'm using my four fingers across the bottom, which works perfectly with the curvature of the Astro City layout. I think the four fingers are much more precise than using your thumb. Your fingers press straight down, the thumb is kind of sideways to the control panel.

I'm excluding Mortal Kombat, in which you are supposed to use your thumb for the run button, but that's the one game you have to compromise because it won't correctly fit either of our layouts; but what other game is supposed to require the thumb?

Zanac Neo isn't in MAME. It's an original game for the PS1.

Zanac neo works fine for me on PS2. BTW, this game isn't tate

Ok, so there's disagreement about it. What doesn't work about it?

Even if it's not for vertical monitors I might want to get it working on my horizontal cab.

How about that list of PSX games with issues on PS2? I have to think about whether it's worth it to add an actual PS1 to one or both of these cabs.

[KAI]

Toaplan Shooting Batlle 1 (Kyukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra/Tiger Heli) is unplayable on PS2, it runs slow.

[rCadeGaming]

Pretty sure some of those run in MAME, I'll check for all of them, and check input lag. Any others?

I play all my PSX games on PS2's, so while I'm asking, what other good PSX games will run poorly? Doesn't have to be vertical or a shmup.

[BIL]

Gradius Gaiden is the only original PS1 shooter I know of with definitive problems running on a PS2. Stage 7 runs in permanent slowdown making it far too easy and ruining a particularly cool level. If you can put up with that it otherwise works.

AFAIK, all the other major confirmed cases like Toaplan SBv1 (Kyuukyoku Tiger and Twin Cobra run slow) and Gradius Deluxe Pack (slow Gradius II) involve arcade games playable in MAME.

[shmuppyLove]

Edit: ah crap, the internets ate my reply and I don't feel like typing it again. lol

[chempop]

I firmly suggest having 4 buttons per player. Here's why: This cabinet is for vertical shooting games, almost all of which are going to use 2 or 3 buttons. Some of the good ones need a 4th button, and VERY FEW (almost none) use more than 4.
A good cabinet is streamlined, not some terribly over complicated contraption that takes spreadsheets and diagrams to operate.

Having a separate auto-fire button for each button is ridiculous.

Having 4-5 non-functioning buttons for most games that'll be played on it is ridiculous.

[DJ Incompetent]

crapmame

[shmuppyLove]

crapmame

The horror ...

[KAI]

Me and Psikyo_ball have played SSFIIX, Progear, Shippu and dodonpachi on the worst MAME cabinet on earth, lag everywhere, made in Argentina. It was a painful experience.

[rCadeGaming]

CLEAR THE F@*&ING RUNWAY. PAC-MATT IS TAKING THE FUCK OFF!!

Yes, I've read through that for a laugh many times. The worst offenders to me are computer monitors, nonsensical side art that's not arcade game related (sometimes not even video game related), and of course, the ultimate f&@# up, using an X-arcade stick.

Full disclosure, my original plan would have been just a computer with a monitor in a cabinet made from recycled wooden shelves, with X-arcade parts. That was about four years ago, when I first discovered MAME. Don't worry though, I've been learning. Since then I've been planning the entire time, and things change. If these things ever get finished it could be a contender for the BYOAC awards.

The admin buttons on top will be very minimal, probably just power, menu, reset, and a volume knob. Start and select for each player (select will pause in MAME, good to have close), coin buttons on the side (can be disabled for using real coins only), a small trackball in the center, and a joystick and main buttons for each player.

All the rotary switches for changing consoles and remapping buttons and turbo buttons and all that stuff will be hidden under a locked door on the control panel. If you don't have the key and know what you're doing, you don't even have to know it's there.

Just push the power button, the computer starts, and automatically turns on the screen when the front-end is ready. Move the cursor over to a game with the trackball, click on it with the menu button, play. Exit by pushing menu again, shut it down by pushing power again, screen turns off automatically and you're done.

All this being said, I'm not convinced right now I should limit the vertical cab to four buttons. Everything else has been cut down pretty well, but I don't think three extra buttons over the normal row are so bad. They don't get in your way. I'm writing my own front-end and it has an instruction screen that looks something like this for each game, so it won't be confusing what all the buttons do:

Code: Select all

         O   O   O
 O       
_|_     O   O   O   O
Move Fire Slow Bomb

Obviously it looks better than, but you get the idea.

Edit: ah crap, the internets ate my reply and I don't feel like typing it again. lol

Aw, c'mon? What were you going to say? I could argue button layouts to no end, and I think it's important to get other people's input on my ideas.

[Ed Oscuro]

crapmame

this dude is ready for Nova 2001 or Ark Area!

"AND IT RUNS ON LUNIX!! NYAR!!"!

[DJ Incompetent]

All this being said, I'm not convinced right now I should limit the vertical cab to four buttons. Everything else has been cut down pretty well, but I don't think three extra buttons over the normal row are so bad. They don't get in your way. I'm writing my own front-end and it has an instruction screen that looks something like this for each game, so it won't be confusing what all the buttons do:

Code: Select all

         O   O   O
 O       
_|_     O   O   O   O
Move Fire Slow Bomb

Don't do hori button rows. Start with an Astro City layout. It is ergonomic. http://slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html
Focus on playing your favorite games right instead of being able to do everything.

That Street Fighter Gem Mini Mix thing is a 3 button fighter. That's what I use when somebody bitches about wah no street fighter.





(Kill Click is a 80s/early 90s autofire button for supreme wrist laziness)
(4player bullshit was though usb pads...and dumb friends)

[rCadeGaming]

Not sure what you're getting at here... trolling? Ok I'll bite...

I already mentioned that I am using an Astro City button layout. One of my earlier projects:



I've read through slagcoin "cover to cover."

As I've said, that top row of 3 buttons isn't in the way of anything, so I don't see any good reason to remove it and disable some good games just for looks, or because of a perceived risk of confusion.

Gem Fighter is not a substitute for a range of serious Capcom fighters - a large range of excellent games that you're just one button away from being able to play properly. Really, it's pretty nonsensical that you're just missing that bottom right button, it wouldn't be in the way of anything. Of course you could also make that one with that one in the bottom row the correct size as well.

"Increase confuse" is right. Minimizing buttons is supposed to simplify things, I don't think you've done that here.

Sorry if I'm being a dick, I just read through CrapMAME again, so maybe it's influencing my prose. There were some funny additions since the last time I saw it.

If you really want to see a wealth of layout arguments, read this:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 842.0.html

[Obiwanshinobi]

Do you know where to find a good list of PSX games with issues on PS2? Googled it to no avail. I can find lists of games that won't work at all, but nothing about games that are playable with issues; nothing mentioning input lag which is pretty important to me.

Gradius II (you can get it for the Saturn, though).
Zanac Neo is infamous for input lag on the PS2, but some people don't complain, so maybe it depends which model. Neo is laggy on mine, but the 8-bit Zanacs work fine.
One thing I'm not dead sure about, but after a long, LONG Sonic Wings Special session I tried to play Strikers 1945 II (PSX port) on my PS2 and the controls felt way less responsive. Since then I haven't touched it again, but I intend to (got a PSX in meantime so I can be more objective next time). That said, there are decent Psikyo collections for the PS2.
Night Raid - something weird...
Something on some Toaplan collection...