No development experience, would like to learn please.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

I don't know anything about programming or development, but I would like to learn how. Check out my thread Raiden DX 2 ideas please I would perhaps like to begin development on such game if I ever learn how to program and develop. Any help would be much appreciated.

[n0rtygames]

SHMUPs are a lot of work, both graphically and mathematically.

If you're new to programming, I wouldn't recommend starting out on something quite so grand. You want to kick things off with a simple cascading shooter with no real end game. Just a ship that moves left and right, enemies spawning from the top of the screen and scrolling down firing the occasional bullet.

When you start to throw in laser beams, swarms of bullets and enemies, powerups and other stuff - things get a little bit more complicated and you need to balance things out performance wise - especially on hardware with significant limitations - i.e the xbox 360.

Not to crush your spirits, as I think it's awesome that you're looking in to games programming - but before you can make anything approaching a good game, you'll need to be able to write simple games like Pong.

I've been coding for literally years and I still worry that Chronoblast will be flamed to hell and suck beyond all belief in the eyes of the players when I release it. That's another important thing that you need to accept when making games too - the public will always be right. If someone tells you that your game sucks, then it basically sucks. It wont matter how many hours you put in to a gimmicky mechanic, or how polished you made your particle system, or how tidy your code is. If the player is not having fun, then you fail!

Coding a game is easy. Coding FUN is mind meltingly difficult and takes hours upon hours of late night playtesting and minor code tweaks to get right. I'm not meaning to scare you, just to lower your expectations initially as Raiden is a really high target for you to try and reach as a beginner.

Trust me... I went "HAW, I WANT TO MAKE A GAME LIKE DODONPACHI. IT IS AWESOME." --- some significant time later, I want to punch myself in the face and wonder why I didn't just make Xenon 2.

First things first - what platform do you want to make games for? PC? Xbox? IOS?

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

SHMUPs are a lot of work, both graphically and mathematically.

If you're new to programming, I wouldn't recommend starting out on something quite so grand. You want to kick things off with a simple cascading shooter with no real end game. Just a ship that moves left and right, enemies spawning from the top of the screen and scrolling down firing the occasional bullet.

When you start to throw in laser beams, swarms of bullets and enemies, powerups and other stuff - things get a little bit more complicated and you need to balance things out performance wise - especially on hardware with significant limitations - i.e the xbox 360.

Not to crush your spirits, as I think it's awesome that you're looking in to games programming - but before you can make anything approaching a good game, you'll need to be able to write simple games like Pong.

I've been coding for literally years and I still worry that Chronoblast will be flamed to hell and suck beyond all belief in the eyes of the players when I release it. That's another important thing that you need to accept when making games too - the public will always be right. If someone tells you that your game sucks, then it basically sucks. It wont matter how many hours you put in to a gimmicky mechanic, or how polished you made your particle system, or how tidy your code is. If the player is not having fun, then you fail!

Coding a game is easy. Coding FUN is mind meltingly difficult and takes hours upon hours of late night playtesting and minor code tweaks to get right. I'm not meaning to scare you, just to lower your expectations initially as Raiden is a really high target for you to try and reach as a beginner.

Trust me... I went "HAW, I WANT TO MAKE A GAME LIKE DODONPACHI. IT IS AWESOME." --- some significant time later, I want to punch myself in the face and wonder why I didn't just make Xenon 2.

First things first - what platform do you want to make games for? PC? Xbox? IOS?

Thanks for helping to point me in the right direction. I realize it does take hours and hours of hard work to make games, and before I even start I need to learn the basics, (what programs to use, writing the game code, etc.) By the way, I will probably look into developing PC games first, since I know how to use computers fairly decently. I know I probably got carried away, but I just love Raiden DX so much After all, I am just a 17 year old high school senior and I need to also focus on my school and stuff.

[n0rtygames]

After all, I am just a 17 year old high school senior and I need to also focus on my school and stuff.

Not that I condone flunking in school but.... for what it's worth, I paid no attention in school and am absolutely terrible at Mathematics - I have had quite a successful employment history, was self taught and spent my evenings hanging around playing Dungeons and Dragons with my fellow nerds and voluntarily staying behind with our computer teacher to learn to write games.

Realistically, when you're old enough to be employable by a games company - they're going to be far more interested in titles that you've released that they can actually download and physically play - instead of qualifications that say you might be able to do something..

It has to be something that you really want to do.

But it also means you have to give up on playing games or watching movies for a long while and just focus entirely on learning a new discipline. For me, it was a case of completely removing Windows from my PC and installing Linux... 4 years went by before I played a Windows game again

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

After all, I am just a 17 year old high school senior and I need to also focus on my school and stuff.

Not that I condone flunking in school but.... for what it's worth, I paid no attention in school and am absolutely terrible at Mathematics - I have had quite a successful employment history, was self taught and spent my evenings hanging around playing Dungeons and Dragons with my fellow nerds and voluntarily staying behind with our computer teacher to learn to write games.

Realistically, when you're old enough to be employable by a games company - they're going to be far more interested in titles that you've released that they can actually download and physically play - instead of qualifications that say you might be able to do something..

It has to be something that you really want to do.

But it also means you have to give up on playing games or watching movies for a long while and just focus entirely on learning a new discipline. For me, it was a case of completely removing Windows from my PC and installing Linux... 4 years went by before I played a Windows game again

Thank you for your help, it does seem like a very challenging path to take, but game development isn't actually my main career choice. I was thinking of maybe getting into it when I have some spare time. My dreams are to become a fighter pilot after I receive an aerospace engineering degree from a 4-year university.

[n0rtygames]

Thank you for your help, it does seem like a very challenging path to take, but game development isn't actually my main career choice. I was thinking of maybe getting into it when I have some spare time. My dreams are to become a fighter pilot after I receive an aerospace engineering degree from a 4-year university.

If what they say about the effect video games have on youth is true.... I'm not sure you should be playing Raiden with this career in mind!

Mind = blown

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

If what they say about the effect video games have on youth is true.... I'm not sure you should be playing Raiden with this career in mind!

Mind = blown

Why not, will it really have that bad of an influence on me?

[pieterator]

If I can suggest a great tool for creating 2D games it would be Game Maker. The latest version is Game Maker 8.1 and it has a free lite version. It has a very simple but effective drag and drop interface for you to get started, and once you move past that, you can start using Game Makers built in scripting language which will give you access to all it's features.

Also, there are a lot of people who use Game Maker on these forms (myself included), so if you have questions, they will be able to help you with an answer.

For sprites, any image editing software will do. GIMP is a free open source editor, and is perfect to get you started. I personally use Photoshop.

Happy coding, can't wait to see what your first shmup looks like

[BPzeBanshee]

If I can suggest a great tool for creating 2D games it would be Game Maker. The latest version is Game Maker 8.1 and it has a free lite version. It has a very simple but effective drag and drop interface for you to get started, and once you move past that, you can start using Game Makers built in scripting language which will give you access to all it's features.

Seconded, except pieterator must not have noticed this: http://yoyogames.com/news/117

That being said, stick with 8.1: http://yoyogames.com/gamemaker/windows

As n0rtygames pointed out, stick with getting the basics in first. While GM is a good framework you still want to be able to at least get a basic engine going: a ship that moves, shoots bullets, and other objects that appear that shoot bullets. The YoYoGames website and GM itself have tutorials available as well: http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/make/tutorials

Following the 1945 example to the letter may end in a crap shmup but it WILL give you some skills. I started with it, and with a bit of community support and vigilance I think I'm doing well.

[trap15]

I'm going to have to disagree with pieterator and BPzeBanshee, and say you should go for XNA like n0rty said, if only for the fact that it's actual programming all the way down. It will teach you a deal more about how it all works too. Unless you don't care about the journey and just want the result.

[BPzeBanshee]

I'm going to have to disagree with pieterator and BPzeBanshee, and say you should go for XNA like n0rty said, if only for the fact that it's actual programming all the way down. It will teach you a deal more about how it all works too. Unless you don't care about the journey and just want the result.

Well he did mention about *PC* games first. XNA is definitely the way to go in the long run and commercially (for 360 ports) but it'll help to start with getting the basic 'developer's mind' going, which GM is good for. Once he gets a good grip of that, XNA is definitely an ideal language to jump to.

[trap15]

XNA works directly on PC as well. Well, a Windows PC. Hate Microsoft, but they really do know how to tie everything together perfectly.

[BPzeBanshee]

Maybe I didn't make my point clear: I think it'd be easier and more beneficial to start off with something simple - much like what n0rtygames has suggested gameplay-wise but take that onboard with programming languages, and then advance to a more complex language like XNA (and in turn fully reap its benefits with your experience) later down the track.

Think of it as stepping stones: GM's D&D, GM's GML, something more complex, XNA. Microsoft does something similar with its Visual Basic variant, SmallBasic, for example. It's the mindset of being able to look at lines of code as a program and handle stuff like variables without getting a splitting headache that I'm thinking of here. From my own personal experience, trying to start with something low-level as much as it has its benefits is overwhelming and puts me off programming entirely, so I started with something small and built up from there.

[n0rtygames]

Maybe I didn't make my point clear: I think it'd be easier and more beneficial to start off with something simple - much like what n0rtygames has suggested gameplay-wise but take that onboard with programming languages, and then advance to a more complex language like XNA (and in turn fully reap its benefits with your experience) later down the track.

I agree with this. It really depends on the individual and of course how they learn. I started using things like SEUCK on the C64 to make games, then later on "Klik & Play" came around on Windows. Not the most powerful packages out there, but definately require some sort of ordered thinking in terms of gameplay logic.

Really the question is "Do you want to make games?" vs "Do you want to learn to program?" -- there are so many tools out there now that require very little in the way of coding experience and allow you to make a fairly decent game.

Ultimately though, there is a point where you have to start delving in to at least some form of scripting to really start making your game shine as something unique. Whether that's in game maker, C++, C#, using Unreals "Visual scripting" Kismet tool - or Adobe Actionscript.

[Giest118]

For what it's worth, I always use Game Maker, and I think the thing most wrong with my shmups is that I am shit at graphics and unable to compose my own OSTs, which would be a problem whether or not I used Game Maker. I have no intention of ever making games for profit, so I don't really have a need to try developing with more complex tools. So for me, Game Maker is just about perfect... most of the time.

So it pretty much depends on what your eventual ambitions are. If all you want to do is make freeware games in your spare time, then there isn't a whole lot of reason NOT to use Game Maker. If you intend to move on to bigger things later on, then Game Maker should just be a temporary thing for you.

[Lord Satori]

But it also means you have to give up on playing games or watching movies for a long while and just focus entirely on learning a new discipline.

that isn't even close to being true. you'll wear yourself out that way.

[n0rtygames]

that isn't even close to being true. you'll wear yourself out that way.

Not when coding is something you do for enjoyment!

But in all seriousness - you're quite right, not everybody will want to go at it quite so intensely and burning out is a horrible thing.... No sense putting yourself in permanent crunch time. It's just an approach that worked for me around his age

[nasty_wolverine]

i find that playing shmups while trying to make a shmup is a damn good idea... most of the time i go "that really neat the way they did it in this game... i should try to do something similar...". if your not playing shmups while making a shmup, its more like trying to build a car without ever having driven one... not gonna work...

i personally would say to go with c++ opengl and using either sdl or sfml as a crossplatform wrapper... its a very steep learning curve but it has a huge payoff in the end because its very very flexible... start simple like getting a blank window, getting keyboard input to work, placing a sprite on screen, getting text and sound, try working in a camera... you get the idea, try keeping your code reusable so while learning the basics you will already have a framework that is going to build your future game or atleast will give you a strong working concept...

but be prepared to sink in a huge amount of time and patience, its not easy but definitely can be done...

[Meseki]

i personally would say to go with c++ opengl and using either sdl or sfml as a crossplatform wrapper... its a very steep learning curve but it has a huge payoff in the end because its very very flexible... start simple like getting a blank window, getting keyboard input to work, placing a sprite on screen, getting text and sound, try working in a camera... you get the idea, try keeping your code reusable so while learning the basics you will already have a framework that is going to build your future game or atleast will give you a strong working concept...

I can say from experience that it is very difficult when starting with C++ to make a good base engine for games, even with previous programming experience. Starting in game making with C++ without previous programming experience is a very bad idea, especially when there are tools like Game Maker to ease you into programming.

Personally, I only stopped using Game Maker when I was proficient with GML and could see the limitations of Game Maker (though the only one I remember is paletted images, despite switching only 2-3 years ago). Even after I stopped using Game Maker, I used a little bit of Python so I could get used to programming a game completely in script before I moved to C++.

[nasty_wolverine]

I can say from experience that it is very difficult when starting with C++ to make a good base engine for games, even with previous programming experience.

That is true, but then again I started with Basic then C and then C++, took me over 2 years to be proficient in c++ then learnt opengl. when i say proficient i mean learning polymorphism and inheritance, pointer usage and STL (very much needed if your programming anything complex in c++) and a few design patterns (why, how and where to use), though i still need to learn to use boost libraries. I tried a few other languages in between like python and c# but always came back to c++ as i found it easier to do things in it. I d say is personal preference of language and how much time you can devote to it.

So I would say, try a few languages first, see which you are most comfortable in and then learn it thoroughly. But at the end of the day, C++ is the industry standard for almost everything and you will have to eventually learn it if you want to build something complex and need performance with flexibility.

On the other hand, python is a very good language to start with if you have no prior or little experience in programming, it also has a lot of supporting libraries, and the pygame library for making games.

[trap15]

when i say proficient i mean learning polymorphism and inheritance, pointer usage and STL (very much needed if your programming anything complex in c++) and a few design patterns (why, how and where to use), though i still need to learn to use boost libraries.

Just for what it's worth, pretty much all of "C++" is incredibly slow. If you want fast code, you need to turn off exceptions, not use any inheritance (if you must, single inheritance only; no multiple), and avoid most of the STL unless you know exactly how well it performs with your dataset. If I recall correctly, boost isn't very fast either. It's also a massive clusterfuck, and not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

[Lord Satori]

I'm in the same boat as the starter of this topic. though it'll probably be a few months before I start learning. also I know a few games that are made with gamemaker and are being sold. its all a matter of quality. Immortal Defense is made with game maker. although it isn't a shmup, its still pretty good.

[nasty_wolverine]

i generally use single inheritance, polymorphism only for interface style code, only stl list and vectors (list for dynamic dataset and vector for static dataset), and generally i use component based approach (to avoid multiple inheritance and then chase up trees to find what went wrong where). i ll agree with trap15 on c++ being comparatively slow only to C but its more flexible. if someone wanted raw speed then pure C is way faster. or just get a good optimizing compiler and make sure turnoff stl debug (or that thing will eat a lot of cycles). VC express is not bad and freely available.

as Mr. Stroustrup says, "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off."
how to shoot yourself in other languages for fun

C
You shoot yourself in the foot.

C++
You accidentally create a dozen clones of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical assistance is impossible since you can’t tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, “That’s me, over there.”

JAVA
After importing java.awt.right.foot.* and java.awt.gun.right.hand.*, and writing the classes and methods of those classes needed, you’ve forgotten what the hell you’re doing.

Ruby
Your foot is ready to be shot in roughly five minutes, but you just can’t find anywhere to shoot it.

Perl
You shoot yourself in the foot, but nobody can understand how you did it. Six months later, neither can you.

LISP
You shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds ….

BASIC
Shoot yourself in the foot with a water pistol. On big systems, continue until entire lower body is waterlogged.

Pascal
The compiler won’t let you shoot yourself in the foot.

Visual Basic
You’ll shoot yourself in the foot, but you’ll have so much fun doing it that you won’t care.

Assembly
You try to shoot yourself in the foot only to discover you must first reinvent the gun, the bullet, and your foot. After that’s done, you pull the trigger, the gun beeps several times, then crashes.

Python
You try to shoot yourself in the foot but you just keep hitting the whitespace between your toes.

[Lord Satori]

lol. the java one made me laugh.