The Wii U ( WiiU ) Thread

[Skykid]

I haven't liked a single Nintendo home console after the SNES. I don't care about their first party titles and their hatred for complexity doesn't help things.

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

[StoofooEsq]

While I'm not going to pretend that its Wii U exclusivity doesn't disappoint me, I'm happy with the sole fact that a Bayonetta 2 exists.

That being said, it's clear Nintendo is aiming for me, but just a Bayonetta 2 alone isn't enough for me to get a Wii U. They're going to have to work much harder at getting titles that I'm interested in to have me even consider one. This isn't the Hardcore/Casual thing that most of the Internet is making this out to be, or this notion that the Wii U doesn't 'deserve' Bayonetta. My stance is the long-term value I'm looking for in a console. Aside from Bayonetta 2, The Wonderful 101, maybe Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge, and some scattered games for the original Wii (which I skipped for the same reasons), there's no other titles that are currently catching my eye about the system.

As for the reaction to the news, is anyone really surprised that there's any negative reception at all? Yes, there's stupid shit being said and done, but both sides of this situation are being fucking obnoxious in my eyes; in particular, the shame parade that follows the initial furor (see also: NeoGAF's Wall of Shame). What really annoys me is that I understand views from those for and against this, but the loudest people on the two sides make me not want to associate with any of them.

[Drum]

I haven't liked a single Nintendo home console after the SNES. I don't care about their first party titles and their hatred for complexity doesn't help things.

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

Not this stupid argument again. Let's just assume he doesn't know what he's talking about, one way or the other, the same as the other times this thing has reared its head with different players. One interpretation of complexity throws shmups and games like Hagane on the junkpile, and another most certainly includes Nintendo's stuff - even their dopier stuff.

[Cuilan]

The price is too high for what it offers me, at least around launch. Even more-so since the best trade-in deal available so far is $50 for a Wii at Gamestop. I'm interested in Pikmin 3, Tank! Tank! Tank!, Zombie U, and of course Bayonetta 2. But at this point, I'm going to wait & see if the latter 3 actually stay exclusive, at the very least I'm going to wait until both the Wii U is cheaper and the Xbox 720/PS4 are out.

[Hagane]

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

It definitely is, and always has been, but most people don't know what the word means.

In any case, complexity is a prerequisite for me, and since Nintendo usually neglects that, I haven't liked a single one of their home consoles since the SNES. They do have nice handhelds though.

[EmperorIng]

Is Mr. Driller complex? Because that game is f-in' balls-to-the-wall.

I still love my Gamecube though - though my brother's friend has had it for over 2 years now >: (
It's my second-favorite Nintendo console (after the SNES), a lot of beloved games on it

[Drum]

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

It definitely is, and always has been, but most people don't know what the word means.

In any case, complexity is a prerequisite for me, and since Nintendo usually neglects that, I haven't liked a single one of their home consoles since the SNES. They do have nice handhelds though.

What does 'complexity' mean, then? I mean, I know what it means, but you are going to need to explain your useage if you want to communicate here.

[louisg]

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

It definitely is, and always has been, but most people don't know what the word means.

In any case, complexity is a prerequisite for me, and since Nintendo usually neglects that, I haven't liked a single one of their home consoles since the SNES. They do have nice handhelds though.

Define complexity. A lot of people think that if you use every single button on a controller, or a game sports a long feature list, it means it's complex. But I usually define depth as the game beneath the more visible, superficial game. Case in point: M.U.L.E. is a prime example. This is a "consolized" strategy game (even though it's on the computer). It offers players very little each turn in terms of moves they can take. But, despite the simplicity of its interface and presentation, there are all kinds of strategies players can pull off. It ends up being quite complex in the end. But a quick glance would not reveal any such depth.

In any case, complexity, however it's defined, comes from the games and not from the console. That's a software support question, and so far I'm not seeing why the Wii-U wouldn't be as capable of that as any other system (especially since considering the lineup so far it seems they're going for a slightly less casual market).

On the subject of depth in Nintendo's 1st party games since the SNES, I'd argue that the F-Zero series has a good amount of subtlety to its gameplay, as does Mario Kart 64 (which is good as a competitive game for this reason). And, the Mario Galaxy games were IMO some of the best platformers ever. While I can't quite say they're deep by *my* own definition, I can say that they have excellent control, level design, and more extra challenges than you can shake a stick at, if that's what you're after.

Like Skykid said, the majority opinion would be ruling that shmups aren't deep anyway. However, everyone on this site knows they're wrong!

[Hagane]

Like Skykid said, the majority opinion would be ruling that shmups aren't deep anyway.

Indeed. That's why I said most people don't know what complexity is. But I won't derail this thread any further; someone make a thread on that if they really want to discuss complexity.

[Drum]

I'll never understand this. Complexity is not a pre-requisite for a good videogame, and never has been. Quite the opposite: it's very often the undoing.

It definitely is, and always has been, but most people don't know what the word means.

In any case, complexity is a prerequisite for me, and since Nintendo usually neglects that, I haven't liked a single one of their home consoles since the SNES. They do have nice handhelds though.

Define complexity. A lot of people think that if you use every single button on a controller, or a game sports a long feature list, it means it's complex. But I usually define depth as the game beneath the more visible, superficial game. Case in point: M.U.L.E. is a prime example. This is a "consolized" strategy game (even though it's on the computer). It offers players very little each turn in terms of moves they can take. But, despite the simplicity of its interface and presentation, there are all kinds of strategies players can pull off. It ends up being quite complex in the end. But a quick glance would not reveal any such depth.

In any case, complexity, however it's defined, comes from the games and not from the console. That's a software support question, and so far I'm not seeing why the Wii-U wouldn't be as capable of that as any other system (especially since considering the lineup so far it seems they're going for a slightly less casual market).

On the subject of depth in Nintendo's 1st party games since the SNES, I'd argue that the F-Zero series has a good amount of subtlety to its gameplay, as does Mario Kart 64 (which is good as a competitive game for this reason). And, the Mario Galaxy games were IMO some of the best platformers ever. While I can't quite say they're deep by *my* own definition, I can say that they have excellent control, level design, and more extra challenges than you can shake a stick at, if that's what you're after.

Like Skykid said, the majority opinion would be ruling that shmups aren't deep anyway. However, everyone on this site knows they're wrong!

Complex and deep aren't synonyms though - they're practically opposites. Complex games can of course be deep, but a game doesn't need to be complex to be deep. Complexity is more about breadth - lots of discrete parts. I think Hagane (and the other people here who have abused the word, who I am pretty sure are all parroting _______) just fundamentally misunderstand the ideas at work here.

[louisg]

Complex and deep aren't synonyms though - they're practically opposites. Complex games can of course be deep, but a game doesn't need to be complex to be deep. Complexity is more about breadth - lots of discrete parts. I think Hagane (and the other people here who have abused the word, who I am pretty sure are all parroting _______) just fundamentally misunderstand the ideas at work here.

Hmm if it's breadth he's referring to then that makes even less sense. That's definitely not a prerequisite for a good game. Any chump can throw an endless list of features into a game design and create an unbalanced mess, but it takes a good designer to create a game with few elements which contains a lot of strategy.

[Drum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity
If he's not talking about breadth then I don't know what the heck he's talking about. But like I said earlier, a lot of the games he holds in high regard aren't complex at all. The simplest explanation is that he just doesn't know what he's talking about. But, hey, a lot of people don't.

In any case, I'd go even further than you - I'd say that any chump can throw an endless list of features and create a balanced mess - provided they're not features that are depth-inducing. Like, if you made a boardgame with a thousand different pieces, each with their own unique set of numbers indicating defence and attack power, or a fighting game with a thousand different moves consisting of their own unique hitstun, power, priority and speed - they'd be pretty easy to balance for an experienced designer with some graphing paper, a free weekend and a basic understanding of mathematics - even if the forces/characters were asymmetrical. But a game with the simplest rules of all can be an absolute mare if they're the right sort of rules. Just imagine trying to balance Go if each colour had a slightly different set of properties.

[Seppuku]

You know, it's kind of worth it for Bayonetta 2.

[Ganelon]

Outside of upcoming ports—Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper will probably be worth it, Tekken Tag Tournament 2 might be worth it, Mass Effect 3 Special Edition probably won't be—I'm interested in the next Super Smash Bros. That's it, and the game won't be released anytime soon. I'll eventually buy New Super Mario Bros. U and Rayman Legends but those 2 franchises seem a bit overdone lately. I'm not sure what Nintendo will release because they already exhausted many of their top licenses recently saving the 3DS and prolonging the Wii's life.

I'm curious to see how Wii U ports will look. Will the 360 remain the greatest common denominator, resulting in worse ports on the U? Or will the U have noticeably better visuals and performance? If the latter consistently holds true and if the DLC system makes a huge jump, then I'll probably pre-order a U and get all future multi-platform games on it when possible. If the former, then I'll probably sit tight until something sways my opinion.

It's interesting that I've not really been a fan of Nintendo's post-SFC consoles either but I attribute none of that to lack of complexity. If anything, Nintendo has over the years added too much junk to games. It all started innocuously in the form of Super Mario World's completion number and dragon coins that disappeared from a stage when fully collected. But then with Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario 64, it focused more and more on making games about finding/collecting meaningless items.

Now, there are numerous collectables and completables involved and everyone else in the industry jumped along with achievements and trophies. Even if the extraneous additions are optional, that means any player who doesn't go for them won't get the full "experience." I would much more appreciate a game that focused on straightforward survival-based action. Unfortunately, casual gamers nowadays probably wouldn't pay $50 for a short but memorable game.

[jasoncslaughter]

I won't touch the complexity argument (because it's not an argument worth having), but I haven't liked any of Nintendo's consoles after the SNES. I wanted to like them all, but I don't. As far as the WiiU is concerned, I'll be waiting until my wife forces me to buy it.

And just for the record, the N64 controller is a turd and no one will convince me otherwise.

[Friendly]

There is a way Nintendo could convince me to buy Wii U sooner instead of (probably) much later: If they created a DS-player for it. Given the touch-screen of the controller, that sounds like a no-brainer to me.

[Drum]

I won't touch the complexity argument (because it's not an argument worth having)

Hey now, don't strut up rocking that 'tude and then be having Very Important Feelings about Consoles. You have to space it out or you end up looking like a cartoon.

[jasoncslaughter]

I won't touch the complexity argument (because it's not an argument worth having)

Hey now, don't strut up rocking that 'tude and then be having Very Important Feelings about Consoles. You have to space it out or you end up looking like a cartoon.

Unfortunately, my feelings are not at all important because I am a cartoon.

[Drum]

:(

[neorichieb1971]

I am actually looking at Wii U to save my relationship with the games industry. It probably won't happen but I've had enough of 2 types of games. Games where shooting happens 99.9% in a FPS style game and gimmicky games involving waving your arms around.

I don't mind those things in small doses, but each type of those games has it constantly. Is it possible for a new console to come out that will make people look forward to something else?

[CMoon]

I am actually looking at Wii U to save my relationship with the games industry. It probably won't happen but I've had enough of 2 types of games. Games where shooting happens 99.9% in a FPS style game and gimmicky games involving waving your arms around.

I think this is where its up to developers to step it up. The best designed console in the world without amazing developers is just a soulless machine. And while it might seem like I've been bashing Nintendo, the DS has been my favorite console since the PS2--mostly because developers went crazy over that machine. Not because its an amazing bit of hardware. If all my favorite companies jumped ship to WiiU, I might have to think about it--but in the past we've seen these developers begrudgingly hand over 1 or 2 exclusives to Nintendo, then back to Sony and Microsoft they go.

[parallaxscroll2]

I'm not a huge fan of Nintendo however I will be picking up a WiiU as soon as it's released. Going for the deluxe pack but I read that GS has completely sold out. I'm sure I'll be able to find one elsewhere, tho.

I cannot wait to see what Retro and EAD Tokyo have been upto regarding WiiU, but I guess we won't find out until next years E3...

[BPzeBanshee]

Preorders are going up here for $420 for the 'Deluxe Edition' - off the top of my head, console, gamepad, gamepad docking charger, HDMI cable, some game.

Hmm. Not sure about this one.

[Friendly]

Regarding Bayonetta 2: From what I've read, Nintendo is actually funding the development of the game; they aren't just paying for timed excusivity. If this is true, then that is totally different from what happened with Resident Evil 4, and there definitely won't be a port of Bayonetta 2 on a non-Nintendo system

[parallaxscroll2]

Personally, I'd like to see collections of Namco System 22/23 and Sega Model 2/3 arcade games released, even it's via DD on the eShop.

[Skykid]

Just finished the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time for the second time in fifteen years.

Game design complexity off the chart.

Game accessibility off the chart.

Nintendo game.

Thanks.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Just finished the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time for the second time in fifteen years.

Game design complexity off the chart.

Game accessibility off the chart.

Nintendo game.

Thanks.

In the good old days of N64 nothing spelled a Nintendo game better than being locked at 20fps.

[Skykid]

In the good old days of N64 nothing spelled a Nintendo game better than being locked at 20fps.

Neither mattered then or now, since they were the good old days and always will be. The 3DS version of OoT is beautifully retuned regardless.

[ancestral-knowledge]

I don't know why i dislike every console that nintendo put out after the SNES.

The only games i like on theses systems are the ones that could easily be programmed for SNES or NES. Mega man 9, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby, ... i just don't know why... i don't even like the zelda games for N64/wii... there seems to be something wrong with me. I hate the controllers, the games (Castlevania Mario and Metroid in 3D!!! Whoop-dee-fucking-doo!! I hate all of them ), the music ...just everything...

I still think that the best game for Wii is Mega Man 9. And N64 and Gamecube games completely suck for me except maybe one or two titles which i have never heard of.

[Skykid]

I don't know why i dislike every console that nintendo put out after the SNES.

The only games i like on theses systems are the ones that could easily be programmed for SNES or NES. Mega man 9, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby, ... i just don't know why... i don't even like the zelda games for N64/wii... there seems to be something wrong with me. I hate the controllers, the games (Castlevania Mario and Metroid in 3D!!! Whoop-dee-fucking-doo!! I hate all of them ), the music ...just everything...

I still think that the best game for Wii is Mega Man 9. And N64 and Gamecube games completely suck for me except maybe one or two titles which i have never heard of.

You genuinely have my sympathies.