Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups

[PROMETHEUS]

For example, their console ports' accuracy is almost always inferior to MAME.

:?

Also, don't you use ShmupMAME? Pretty sure the spritebuffer hack desyncs the backgrounds which makes it possible to reveal hidden stage secret objects in many games.

So you are pointing out to me the one very little, avoidable flaw you can find on MAME and make a weird face, when all console ports have speed inaccuracies, some of them very serious ? Get over it, because MAME indeed is superior. Ketsui runs too slow on XBOX, Futari has spots where it's too fast or too slow, DOJ on XBOX has speed problems and all the other problems you know about, DDP on Saturn is garbage with inacurracies even in the mechanics, DDP on PSX is garbage as well for the same reasons, Mushihimesama has blur poor display on PS2.....
Now look at MAME. Esprade, Guwange, Dodonpachi, Progear, DOJ, Dangun, pretty much every Cave you can find on it except for the latest ones that haven't been worked on for the reasons that you know, run... perfectly.

(In ShmupMAME, the lagless hack barely does anything to DOJ graphically so I use it anyway and it's really absurd to compare this minor glitch to the console inaccuracies. It's way better than Mushi's blurriness, for example)

[emphatic]

Ketsui runs too fast on XBOX

^^fixed

[Bananamatic]

console controls always feel better to me compared to mame

[ShadowWraith]

... dishonest bitch ...

I don't think there's any need for that.

[KAI]

Now look at MAME. Esprade, Guwange, Dodonpachi, Progear, DOJ, Dangun, pretty much every Cave you can find on it except for the latest ones that haven't been worked on for the reasons that you know, run... perfectly.

Regarding Progear:

- Slows down more than it should when compared to real hardware.

[dannnnn]

console controls always feel better to me compared to mame

Same for me, even with Shmupmame, and that's using the same controller and a CRT for both (I know those aren't the only things which can affect input lag, but still). Personally I always prefer console ports unless they have serious issues/inaccuracies (DDP for example).

[cstle]

So you are pointing out to me the one very little, avoidable flaw you can find on MAME and make a weird face

It's got little to do with the accuracy and more to do with the absurdity of calling pausing cheating while using a version of MAME that does things like that.

when all console ports have speed inaccuracies, some of them very serious ?

Most of the console ports are fairly accurate, the poor ports are outside of the norm. MAME is not perfect either and the advantages of the good ports outweigh anything MAME offers.

Not to mention other serious issues with MAME, like... input lag.

Get over it, because MAME indeed is superior.

But it isn't.

Ketsui runs too slow on XBOX

No, it runs a notch faster due to refresh rate differences. There are a few missing instances of slowdown but it's still a very good port.

Futari has spots where it's too fast or too slow

Miniscule, the port is still extremely well done and scores between 360 and PCB are definitely comparable, and a far far better way to play the game than the junky SH3 emulation in MAME before it got removed.

DOJ on XBOX has speed problems and all the other problems you know about

I also know it got patched about a year or so ago.

Also, this seems relevant to the topic at hand...

Mushihimesama has blur poor display on PS2

Indeed. Mushi HD exists though.

[Erppo]

So wait, you're actually saying that games running at different speeds is somehow a smaller issue than ShmupMAME misplacing some background sprites (which has zero effect on anything)?

[cstle]

So wait, you're actually saying that games running at different speeds is somehow a smaller issue than ShmupMAME misplacing some background sprites (which has zero effect on anything)?

"Different speeds"? The Ketsui port refresh rate? It's 59.17Hz->60Hz. Not a big deal, but indeed a mark against it since it does effect the game speed no matter how small it is. I'm pretty sure MAME speeds it up to 60Hz when you're outputting 60Hz anyways too, unless you want to put up with tearing.

And the background desyncs, it's not just "some background sprites", and it does have an effect on things -- did you not read my post? It reveals the position of hidden objects or items in games that handle those things with reliance on sprite/background sync. Again, that comment had nothing to do with accuracy (but it is inaccurate to the PCB too), it was an off-hand comment relating to "cheating."

[Erppo]

And the background desyncs, it's not just "some background sprites", and it does have an effect on things -- did you not read my post? It reveals the position of hidden objects or items in games that handle those things with reliance on sprite/background sync.

Can you give an example of a game where this is an issue? It would seem to me that if you're playing a shmup, you should know all the hidden items regardless, but maybe this does matter in some case.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I have yet to find a game that does that in it either.

But even then, you just don't do runs on that version if the game does that. And it'd still be a useful tool for learning the game more quickly.

[trap15]

Just for what it's worth, MAME is also inaccurate for speed in a lot of games. All the Cave68k stuff has less slowdown than the PCB. CPS2 games are often very incorrect regarding slowdown as well.

[PROMETHEUS]

Most of the console ports are fairly accurate, the poor ports are outside of the norm. MAME is not perfect either and the advantages of the good ports outweigh anything MAME offers.

Not to mention other serious issues with MAME, like... input lag.

I don't know man, every single port that came out people have pointed out speed differences that they could notice just by playing. Ketsui in XBOX is that way, even I can feel it compared to PCB even though I know so little about it. It's funny you mention the super minor graphic glitch that is only on shmupMAME, when MAME actually also FIXES graphics glitches that you find on PCB, such as sprites turning to garbage on certain conditions. It's all really minor stuff anyway, I don't really care that the PCB bug a little bit here and there, speed differences are a different story. And I have never noticed a speed difference for either Dodonpachi, DOJ, or Guwange from MAME to PCB (I am very sensitive to that stuff, and to input lag). By the way, some commercial games have laughable lag on their own cabs/PCB, such as Border Down. Nothing comparable to the 1 frame of input lag you could find on non-shmupMAME (which has 0), it's like 3 or 4 there, it's ridiculous.

What is the advantage of a good port now ? You need a controller suitable for that particular system (when most controllers are usable on PC), you don't get save states, you get replays but you can't get a hold of the file itself, speed inaccuracies, harder to record a video from.. The only thing that I can think of that is cool about the ports is the online leaderboards, that's pretty cool. Now to say that "the advantages of the good ports outweigh anything MAME offers" ? What do you even mean ?

[trap15]

when MAME actually also FIXES graphics glitches that you find on PCB

Uh, that's not a good thing. That's inaccurate and therefore wrong. You can think that's a positive all you want, but it really is not.

[PROMETHEUS]

when MAME actually also FIXES graphics glitches that you find on PCB

Uh, that's not a good thing. That's inaccurate and therefore wrong. You can think that's a positive all you want, but it really is not.

That cracks me up lol
The "official hardware/software" religion is so deeply rooted in here it's just amazing.
Unless you don't know what glitches I'm talking about. It's a glitch like, when a big part of a boss gets destroyed in DOJ for instance, sometimes for 1 second the graphics will turn to garbage. When that happens, there is also bullet cancelling. Oh, that's inaccurate and wrong, fixing glitches like that. However, having the most minor black line of pixels in some rare parts of stages background that most people don't even notice before playing a bunch of times, that's really really bad.

[trap15]

So when a project dedicated to accuracy and behaving exactly like a PCB doesn't fulfill said goal, it's a good thing? Maybe I should figure out the cause of the glitching and implement it. Just for you <3

I know exactly what glitches you're talking about, and fixing those glitches is inaccurate and incorrect because that's how the PCB behaves. MAME is not supposed to be different in any way to PCBs; especially in such significant ways.

[Eaglet]

Well, it's a part of the PCB's hardware (sprite overload i guess), and since the PCB is the original edition that will always be perfect in comparison to anything that tries to emulate it; "fixing" glitches through emulation is not "fixing" something. It's merely changing it.
If the manufacturer released a later version of the PCB without the same glitches that could be called fixing it though.

[Illyrian]

when MAME actually also FIXES graphics glitches that you find on PCB

Uh, that's not a good thing. That's inaccurate and therefore wrong. You can think that's a positive all you want, but it really is not.

That cracks me up lol
The "official hardware/software" religion is so deeply rooted in here it's just amazing.
Unless you don't know what glitches I'm talking about. It's a glitch like, when a big part of a boss gets destroyed in DOJ for instance, sometimes for 1 second the graphics will turn to garbage. When that happens, there is also bullet cancelling. Oh, that's inaccurate and wrong, fixing glitches like that. However, having the most minor black line of pixels in some rare parts of stages background, that's really really bad.

Prometheus, while I agree that MAME is awesome, glitches that are on the PCB should be there in emulation as well, so that you're as close to the original experience as possible.

Come on man, don't be a plonker here.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The MAME religion is so deeply rooted in here it's just amazing.

lolfixed

inb4 every cave port ever made is shit

this thread is just so amazing

[Dave_K.]

MAME is not supposed to be different in any way to PCBs; especially in such significant ways.

QFT!

The goal of MAME is to emulate as closely as possible the original hardware, not fix bugs so people can have a better time playing games. LOL!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The goal of MAME is to emulate as closely as possible the original hardware, not fix bugs so people can have a better time playing games. LOL!

Yes. This would be like an NES emulator permanently disabling sprite flickering - that's not how it worked originally. At most, over it as a toggle option that's off by default, but don't permanently 'fix' things, it's supposed to be authentic for a reason.

[Hagane]

Yeah, if we start playing bugless versions of the originals then we aren't playing the same games anymore. Emulation should strive for accuracy, not "improving" on the original.

[PROMETHEUS]

Fine, whatever, put the glitches back in there that don't even affect gameplay. I don't even know what to say. I'm shocked.

When I play Super Mario 64 on Project64, I put on Antialiasing. It looks better than on the N64. That's a good thing. It doesn't affect gameplay. If it did, for that game, it would be fine obviously (like removing any lag that the N64 has, many games were not running at 60fps), because it's not a competitive game, or you could just play on default gameplay settings for competition.

Now DOJ is a competitive game, and it has like one glitch that occurs when you're not dodging anything. And you want to put it back in there, just so it can be like the PCB, and even criticize it for that. Now when you get console ports that allow you to play with HD graphics, have their own bugs, do not replicate the PCB bugs either, and have speed inaccuracies, that's all awesome and better than MAME.

:)

PS : I think, if MAME was branded "CAVE PC PLATFORM" and you had to pay 50€ for each game you put on it, and they were of lesser quality, you would think it's the best thing in the world.

[Aliquantic]

Hey, I play Mario Kart 64 with competitive hunger and rage Prom!

The primary goal of the MAME project is to be 100% accurate to the PCB so it can act as information archival and game preservation. Playing the games is supposed to be more like a side effect, so it doesn't seem too surprising if the wishes of players are different from those of the MAME project. Hence Lagless and similar external builds.

[PROMETHEUS]

Hey, I play Mario Kart 64 with competitive hunger and rage Prom! :P

The primary goal of the MAME project is to be 100% accurate to the PCB so it can act as information archival and game preservation. Playing the games is supposed to be more like a side effect, so it doesn't seem too surprising if the wishes of players are different from those of the MAME project. Hence Lagless and similar external builds.

Yeah, I understand that primary goal and why it is interesting / important.
On the other side, like you said, players have different interests and they are interesting and important as well.

I think it's nice when people don't mistake one for the other, like in the case of ShmupMAME criticism, and generally in this discussion I think there has been quite a bit of that.

[Dave_K.]

Cave's DSII platform is PC, with 100 yen per play, and is considered shit.

[Aliquantic]

Cave's DSII platform is PC, with 100 yen per play, and is considered shit.

Mostly by people who've not played the game or bought it on a whim when it's clearly not their sort of game... or who care more about aesthetics (or having a pretty PCB) than anything else

[ebarrett]

I've seen people accuse Prom of doing all this because he's "defending his high score achievements that were done on a PC with a keyboard". Didn't these people catch the DOJBL 2-ALL and the 1.7b he got in an arcade while in Japan? Oh, wait, of course not - the shmup Amish barely ever visit the hiscore boards, of course.

[Dave_K.]

I'm talking specifically about the hardware being shit, with windows blue screen of death in arcades.

[Back on topic?] I think using Mame to compare scores on the internet is fine, and so are console ports with online leaderboards, just break out the scores by platform used to obtain them. But trying to bring it to the next level as Prom is proposing is just not going to be possible in today's day and age of internet trolling. This is why playing in an arcade (or at a shmupmeet ) is the ultimate demonstration of one's skills, and why official WR's are recognized on PCB.

[emphatic]

What makes comsole ports and PCB's better than MAME? Well, for the ports, they play exactly the same on every console, making scores comparable 100%. Same goes for the PCB. In MAME, installed om 100's of different computers in lots of different versions, making score comparison somewhat harder. I played Batsugun Special version in MAME and thought I did well, but it wasn't running 100%, so when I got to play the PCB, I was shocked at the speed difference.