Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups

[NTSC-J]

The top Japanese players do not like save states or emulators, even for practice.

Is KET not considered a top Japanese player?

sigh...generally speaking, the top players don't use emulators.

[Naut]

Shmups are single player games, anything you do in them affects you and only you. It doesn't affect the other competitors. Now, in the same breath, I agree that pausing should be limited to between stages since there is a natural break in gameplay there, and the only reason it isn't an actual pause in arcade games is to ensure more people are getting a chance to put in credits. Hell, the breaks are really long anyway in games like DFK anyway, pausing won't make any difference. Pausing in the middle of a stage would be silly since it actually affects your gameplay (and essentially slows down everything for you to react to and plan for).

Again, shmups stop being pure insulated single player games the moment you post a score to compete against someone else. Ketsui isn't the same as Final Fantasy, to make the point completely obvious. So, if you do something that helps you beyond your skills, then you are effectively affecting players that aren't using them. Otherwise following your reasoning, (I know they are not the same thing, but bear with me) TASing a world record run would affect no one but the player who made it either.

The point is that what you're doing is still not affecting anybody else's gameplay. You're both still playing under the same rules and playing the same game. A pause function is even included in the ports made by the same companies that make the arcade boards for the same game. Pausing is something you should be allowed to use as a convenience (not abuse as an advantage). Pausing in multi-player games like fighters or starcraft would be abusing it to fuck up your opponent. Pausing in a single player game is something everybody can do and does not affect your opponent's gameplay (and is effectively done with long ass point rolls inbetween stages anyway).

As for helping or not, it depends. Pausing the game in Gunbird 2 for example, allowed me to get through patterns I would struggle to figure out normally. And then there's the stuff PROM talks about, which is reasonable since the pressure of being near a noçew personal highscore is part of this competitive experience, and taking a break from action to cool off and think about what to do next does alter that.

Like I said, I don't think it should be allowed during stages since it's effectively slowing the game down. Pausing in between stages doesn't really slow the game down, the pause is pretty much there in many games anyway.

sigh...generally speaking, the top players don't use emulators.

I realize you don't want me prying at this any further, but is there much proof of this? I can list a couple top players who've involved themselves in the Touhou scene (with all it's stage practice glory), but I guess that's really just touching on this point more than whether or not emulators are used in top gameplay:

Do they generally draw a distinction between using save states and using practice mode in a port? Just curious.

[NTSC-J]

I realize you don't want me prying at this any further, but is there much proof of this?

Just from what I've been told, they don't much care for emulators (and some think of it as cheating, even if it's just used to practice). And when I say "they", I'm referring to the usual suspects that end up on the superplay DVDs. You'd have to talk to each of them individually to see where opinions differ.

I'm sure you could find WR holders who have used save states to practice, but part of the reason that stuff has become so commonplace outside of Japan is because emulators are the only way people have to play these games. Japan has always had arcades to practice, so they've all grown up with that as their method of learning these games.

My main point is that emulating isn't as much a staple of the shooter community in Japan as it is elsewhere.

[Deca]

One guy got a specialized Ketsui PCB that let him practice the DOOM fight. When news of this came out, everyone got upset, he apologized and his score (achieved on a regular PCB with defaults settings) was voided.

I'm assuming this was well before Ketsui was emulated or ported?

[NTSC-J]

Yea.

Does anyone else remember this? I think it was around when Mihara was trying to port it to PS2.

[Aliquantic]

Wasn't there an issue with people getting special PCBs for superplays too? I seem to recall some drama involving DOJ in particular.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Like I said, I don't think it should be allowed during stages since it's effectively slowing the game down.

I don't think runs that used a mid-stage pause should be demonized or anything though, especially if it's a case of "brb bathroom/dinner's ready/roommate's having a heart attack". There's a difference between using a pause as an IRL convenience and purposefully abusing it as a sort of breather for the nerves or to look up the next boss's attack pattern.

And really, I don't find this makes it easier - pausing for a while to deal with something else IRL then coming back to the game usually ends up with me fucking up somehow soon after I unpause. My best runs always seem to come from playing several runs in the row and getting into a focused rhythm/flow from playing for such a long stretch. Maybe it's just me though.

[Naut]

I'm just sorta defining a good point to pause for convenience. I really don't mind pausing at any point as long as you're not using it as some sort of advantage towards reaction time or quick thinking, like in the middle of bullet patterns or whatever.

In regards to the Ketsui thing, that was really more "he has a distinct advantage over everybody else." With the ports and MAME, anybody who can afford a PCB for themselves is still capable of playing under the same conditions as everybody else, so there aren't any advantages or disadvantages going around.

[ebarrett]

If the japanese want to stick to tradition and boneheadedness as they always love to, do we really have to abide by the same standards? I mean, for fucks sake, they are a country who essentially closed themselves off from the rest of the world for ~200 years because they thought it was a brilliant idea.

Gratuitous xenophobic jabs aside, top japanese players mostly find the idea of savestate practice or anything else that's not a PCB run alien because PCB runs are what they have grown up with. It's a cultural thing, and it also often ties into other aspects of japanese culture as a whole. We are not part of that culture, no matter how much we might want to be. Not even you PCB collectors out there, who are sometimes so rabidly anti-emulation, but on the other hand what are some of you trying to do when you trash-talk "the savestate folks" or whatever other nonsense some of you come up with to inflate your ego? You are trying to emulate culture, and a rather backwards one at that. You are the Amish wannabes of shmups, and honestly, that's as ridiculous as it gets.

[chempop]

You are the PROUD Amish wannabes of shmups

good post btw, I think I have a team name for STGT2013

PROUD AMISH WANNABES, definitely ace

[BIL]

What was behind the disputed run that kicked this whole thing off, exactly? 30hz autofire on the pause button? Would make sense to include an onscreen input display in replays, I guess...

[Ko.oS]

>> Does anyone else remember this?


yea, the infamous ketsui arika superplay dvd incident (which was subsequently canned)....


i remember zlk explaining that the guy who did the doj 1.89B dvd got to *practice* on a special board as well, and as part of the deal he never submitted his score to arcadia. (thats where the ketsui dude(s) went wrong. their scores were further improved fairly quickly by syo & co anyway....)

[PROMETHEUS]

So, if nerves and a nerve control skill affect performance like I think they do, pausing should not be allowed IF we want to be in equal grounds with PCB players. Also, I think it's more fun and rewarding to learn nerve control :p

Nerves are irrelevant, if you can or can't deal with them doesn't matter, that's your problem. People should not be forcing other people under their silly conditions just because they're incapable of handling their nerves and somehow feel that everybody should be under the same stress as them. What if I don't feel any stress at all during a run? Am I at an "unfair" advantage because of this? Should I take drugs to make myself as nervous as you just because you can't handle the pressure and play with silly conditions that put you at a disadvantage? Do drugs that affect my state or mind at all even factor into this nerves discussion? Since that's all nerves are, a state of mind, I could just as easily down some THC in the breaks between stages and get similar effects.

You don't feel any stress ? Tell me you were not nervous when you played that Touhou lunatic run that you put on youtube where you screamed like an enraged kamikaze the second you lost your last life. I've never heard someone sound as nervously broken down in my entire life.

I think nerves are VERY relevant in high level play. Now, maybe some players don't have nerve control problems, good for them, but they still have to play the same game, otherwise we don't know that they're not just covering that weakness. But I agree, pausing in between stages, where there is already a break in gameplay, sounds kinda alright to me I guess...

[PROMETHEUS]

One guy got a specialized Ketsui PCB that let him practice the DOOM fight. When news of this came out, everyone got upset, he apologized and his score (achieved on a regular PCB with defaults settings) was voided.

Well that's really lame. I kind of understand where this comes from, because it would take a lot of tinkering to the other players to be able to do the same and it gives a huge practice efficiency boost, but still... in the end he got his score done, there is no taking it down, it's done. What now, is the guy forbidden to play ketsui ? Because all he had to do then is stop using his special PCB, play more runs and get the same score again... it doesn't make sense.
Anyway, in our case it's completely different, because everyone has access to MAME/Savestates easily. I'm sure if Ketsui was emulated at that time, nobody would have blinked at someone practicing with save states. In fact, I'm sure they all were :p

[DMC]

Gratuitous xenophobic jabs aside, top japanese players mostly find the idea of savestate practice or anything else that's not a PCB run alien because PCB runs are what they have grown up with. It's a cultural thing, and it also often ties into other aspects of japanese culture as a whole. We are not part of that culture, no matter how much we might want to be. Not even you PCB collectors out there, who are sometimes so rabidly anti-emulation, but on the other hand what are some of you trying to do when you trash-talk "the savestate folks" or whatever other nonsense some of you come up with to inflate your ego? You are trying to emulate culture, and a rather backwards one at that. You are the Amish wannabes of shmups, and honestly, that's as ridiculous as it gets.

Haha, well put!

About cheating, I think we've had enough cheating controversies now that something needs to be done. The forum has a decent number of talents and som rivalry, and so I think there is some potential for western shmup players to get closer to the japanese. But with all the cheating drama, accusations, etc, people will get tired of it and move on much faster. On the other hand, obligations can make a hobby turns into a boring chore, and I personally like the relaxed atmosphere of just playing the game and submit the score and that's it.

If I had to choose, however, between the obligation to record top-score replays (that are close to the record) or having to read about all these falsificare and cheat scores every damn STGT - I think I now prefer the former (or maybe the third alternative: submit your score but whatever you do, dont read the forums!)

Btw, Shooting Gangstaz has both fake top scores and (allegedly) fake 30,000$ AES games. And you thought the gangsta part was just a gimmick?

[BIL]

Keepin' it real brother DMC.

[VgameT]

Or is it you making excuses to justify the use of save states as it's way easier to improve in the games?

Player A and player B has a similar skill set and are both playing the same game for one week.

Player A is playing the game in MAME and has access to save states but has the choice to play full runs whenever he wants to.
Player B is playing the PCB and is only capable of doing full runs (unless he suffers from restartitis) so he has to use lots of time to practice the final stages by actually reaching them.

Is the above scenario fair competition? Please no "player B is an idiot for playing on original hardware" replies. Available play time is part of the equation obviously.

The question you're actually asking here is this: "Player A and Player B have a similar skill set and are both playing the same game for one week.

Player A is practicing the game as efficiently as possible.
Player B places arbitrary limits on the way he practices.

Is the above scenario fair competition?"

The answer is yes. Player B is choosing to play in a way that increases his skill level at a slower rate. That's fine, people can do what they want. I don't have an issue with that. However, he's not being forced to play inefficiently by the rules of the competition, so I don't see what could be unfair here.
If for some reason Player B is actually unable to emulate the game, then I guess they're at a disadvantage, but that's their personal problem. For example, if my PS3 controller breaks and I can only play with a keyboard for the week, then I'm pretty fucked. Or if I get into a fight and someone cuts my hand off, or if I have to work 80 hours for the week and the other players are NEETs, or whatever, then I'm at a theoretical disadvantage. But the tournament rules aren't forcing any of these things on me, so the competition itself is still fair. At the end of the week I can say "the way we practiced and our circumstances were different, so that's why I lost!" and that'll be completely true, but that statement's true no matter who says it, so who cares?

[PROMETHEUS]

Gratuitous xenophobic jabs aside, top japanese players mostly find the idea of savestate practice or anything else that's not a PCB run alien because PCB runs are what they have grown up with. It's a cultural thing, and it also often ties into other aspects of japanese culture as a whole. We are not part of that culture, no matter how much we might want to be. Not even you PCB collectors out there, who are sometimes so rabidly anti-emulation, but on the other hand what are some of you trying to do when you trash-talk "the savestate folks" or whatever other nonsense some of you come up with to inflate your ego? You are trying to emulate culture, and a rather backwards one at that. You are the Amish wannabes of shmups, and honestly, that's as ridiculous as it gets.

Haha, well put!

About cheating, I think we've had enough cheating controversies now that something needs to be done. The forum has a decent number of talents and som rivalry, and so I think there is some potential for western shmup players to get closer to the japanese. But with all the cheating drama, accusations, etc, people will get tired of it and move on much faster. On the other hand, obligations can make a hobby turns into a boring chore, and I personally like the relaxed atmosphere of just playing the game and submit the score and that's it.

If I had to choose, however, between the obligation to record top-score replays (that are close to the record) or having to read about all these falsificare and cheat scores every damn STGT - I think I now prefer the former (or maybe the third alternative: submit your score but whatever you do, dont read the forums!) :

I really agree with all this. I have wanted to do this for a long time, I think it's just the natural thing to do for our community. We already have a degree of organization and lots of nice things going on all over the place, and this is one of the next step to make.

You know, I think it's really important, what we do in our community and the way that we organize it. If competition becomes more fair and a little more serious, not only I think it won't hurt anyone, but I think it will stimulate many of us to do better. I always love it when someone posts a video of a game that I play too, even if it's a much lower score. Watching them is fun for me because I see how they have worked on the game, what they are capable of, and I can talk to them and give them tips or even just encourage them and make positive remarks on details of their play.

That's just one thing, but there is a lot more we could do. We already organize events such as STGT and votes for best shmup. That's great, but we could do more. STGT is a cool casual competition, but what about a more serious competition such as the one Arcade Extreme organized for Guwange ? A few donators, and we already have a nice little cash prize for first scores. A much longer duration for the competition is necessary to make the competition serious at all (1 week is really just a competition of whoever has most free time this week, skill is a secondary factor really. Past experience of that game is primary). Make it 1, or 2 months, and now you have something cool.

Also I think it's extremely important for the community to have no leaders. There should never be someone who can decide stuff for the others. Setting up a decisional system that involves everyone equally for whatever we wish to organize or decide on would be really top notch. Of course, that doesn't mean an independant member or group of members wouldn't be able to organize stuff by themselves for others, but for rules that touch the whole community, I'm totally against anyone or any group to decide for everyone else. For example, I am against banning members without a community vote, which has been done in the past, as traditionnally moderators/admins have the power and right to do that on their own.

So, I propose we put a community rule to a vote, that says something like "all top 3 western scores for any game need to be recorded to be accepted". It could also be just top 1st. It is up to each of us to talk to others to make an informed vote, convince others or change their mind if they figure they are wrong.

I think there is one main problem we are running into right now if this rule would get voted (nothing that can't be dealt with, but can be tricky) :
* There is currently a PLETHORA of scores that are top 3 on games which have not been recorded or verified in any way. What to do with them ? Removing them doesn't make sense if the rest of the scores weren't recorded or verified either. I really think of it as a mistake for the players who took those spots not to have recorded, and of course there are probably a bunch of fake scores nobody has ever thought of suspecting, but it's still not easy given the state of things. I think of players like Plasmo that I don't doubt at all, if I were him I would be kind of angry, but maybe I would just think "well my bad, I'm gonna do it again or better and record". What do you think, Plasmo ?

A second problem is what our current definition of "western" is. Should we allow ALL scores to be posted on this forum, or do we want it to represent the scores made in this community that is obviously separate from Japan ? I think that's controversial. I don't like closing the forum down to Chinese/Japanese/Koreans, however I also think it's interesting to have a Western competition and figure out where we are between ourselves before looking at where we are compared to them. We are not playing in the same league. SOF-WTN told me the other day, there are probably about a hundred Japanese players who scored over 547M in DDP. Well, it's impossible to verify the location of a player anyway, so I suppose it doesn't make sense to make the boards "western only". I don't know, what do you guys think about it ?

Lastly, I want to say, if we get together and organize stuff, anything is possible. We can make this community grow and become much stronger, well known, powerful, etc. It is all up to us to make stuff happen.

[PROMETHEUS]

And of course I completely agree with VgameT here. Obvious stuff to me, but I understand people who have not been into larger competitive communities before don't see it. You guys should look up the rules of chess tournament play, it's interesting what you are allowed and not allowed to do because it has an impact of the game. And of course, look up how chess players practice. It's just so absurd to talk against save states users. Ebarret described it right how the Japanese culture is different, and questionable as well, and our situation being not the same at all it really doesn't make sense to be against save states use. It doesn't matter though, because whatever you say, people will still do it and they will still be able to perform. They can hide that they did it, they can stop doing it and then too late, they are able to perform now......

[PROMETHEUS]

Gus comments on my post which I totally agree with :

To me the current "western/world" distinction we use is pretty much bullshit. I've talked quite a bit with x91, a Chinese player who's scored 400m in Ketsui and I really don't think there's much difference between him and me. We've both playing our games for over a year, we both sometimes sink in 9 or 10 hours a day, we even both started playing Cave games in 2010. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that while I was getting all this praise for my scores for months there were people just refusing to acknowledge the incredible results of his equally hard work despite him being an active member of this forum. Rejecting scores based on where people were born is just bullshit. Like someone once told it basically is just us making ourselves feel better by pretending the better players don't count.

Like I said a few months ago a much better system would be to just distinguish between the world record and the best score submitted by a member of the forum, regardless of their nationality. I also like the idea of, if it's higher, also listing the best score done by anyone outside of Japan to help provide some overall perspective as sometimes there's a few (or with Donpachi, many) tricks that give those Japanese superplayers the edge over everyone else.

When did Gus get banned ? Who banned him and why ? I don't think I like this banning system.

[Naut]

You don't feel any stress ? Tell me you were not nervous when you played that Touhou lunatic run that you put on youtube where you screamed like an enraged kamikaze the second you lost your last life. I've never heard someone sound as nervously broken down in my entire life.

I think nerves are VERY relevant in high level play. Now, maybe some players don't have nerve control problems, good for them, but they still have to play the same game, otherwise we don't know that they're not just covering that weakness. But I agree, pausing in between stages, where there is already a break in gameplay, sounds kinda alright to me I guess...

The scream isn't mine, I took it from another video. I later thought it would be better to include my own reaction on it, but livestream had automatically deleted my recording at that point.

I do get nervous during runs, and I know how much it can affect my gameplay. It's still irrelevant because that's my own personal problem and I'm not going to force it on other people. If we did start comparing scores while taking things like nerves into account, then we would basically need to test people for their state of mind during a run and it's completely unrealistic to do that. I would compare handling nerves to something like a broken or malfunctioning gamepad or arcade stick, you can't really use it as an excuse as to why your run sucked, it's your own problem and you have to fix it your own way.

When did Gus get banned ? Who banned him and why ? I don't think I like this banning system.

He's not allowed to post in Shmups Chat, he can still post everywhere else.

[Eaglet]

However, at least for me, getting a recording of every run i do would be a pretty big hassle.
I play shmups because they don't take up too much of my time and it's easy to just put on the cab after getting home from work while the coffee pot is brewing and then sit down for a credit of Garegga or whatever. Having to deal with recording and getting an ugly looking setup in my living room would destroy a lot of the convenient factors i like about shmups.
I could see the need for recording at least one run to show off your skills if you get into the top 5 in any game, but that it shouldn't have to be needed for the specific high-scoring run.
So long as people can see that with your current strategies and skillset the particular score that you got should not only be likely, but expected.
Somebody who gets B+ scores in Garegga regularly could never fail in getting at least A+.

I would never have played Garegga if i had to record every run i did with it, just because the run i'm on might be a C or higher score.


edit: lol at Gus not being allowed to post in Shmups chat...
I've seen nothing but constructive posts from him as of late so... time to put an end to the restrictions?
His input would be valued in this discussion.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I thought it was just Hi Scores and Strategy.

And he requested the restricted posting.

[PROMETHEUS]

When did Gus get banned ? Who banned him and why ? I don't think I like this banning system.

He's not allowed to post in Shmups Chat, he can still post everywhere else.

Well I would like to know who made that decision and why because I don't think I agree with it.

[Erppo]

However, at least for me, getting a recording of every run i do would be a pretty big hassle.

I would think a photo is enough for a proof of scores done on a PCB.

Edit:

Well I would like to know who made that decision and why because I don't think I agree with it.

AFAIK he made it himself.

[iconoclast]

I think the whole "western record", "western first" "western this, western that" distinction is pretty pointless as well. There's one game, and everyone who plays it is part of the same scoreboard. That's all there is to it.

Sure, knowing you have the highest score in a game outside of Japan is a nice bit of trivia (and the 'hall of records' thread is great), but it doesn't really mean anything IMO.

[Eaglet]

I would think a photo is enough for a proof of scores done on a PCB.

That would be great!
Some form of video might be good too though... to show that you're not a skilless bullshitter.
Doesn't have to be a full run, just show off a boss or hard trick or something similar so people see that you know what you're doing.

[PROMETHEUS]

However, at least for me, getting a recording of every run i do would be a pretty big hassle.
I play shmups because they don't take up too much of my time and it's easy to just put on the cab after getting home from work while the coffee pot is brewing and then sit down for a credit of Garegga or whatever. Having to deal with recording and getting an ugly looking setup in my living room would destroy a lot of the convenient factors i like about shmups.
I could see the need for recording at least one run to show off your skills if you get into the top 5 in any game, but that it shouldn't have to be needed for the specific high-scoring run.
So long as people can see that with your current strategies and skillset the particular score that you got should not only be likely, but expected.
Somebody who gets B+ scores in Garegga regularly could never fail in getting at least A+.

I would never have played Garegga if i had to record every run i did with it, just because the run i'm on might be a C or higher score.

Remember what I said Eric, what if I post a 700M DDP score ? I can do it in savestate, and you might think I'm honest enough that I would never do it, but what about someone just a tad bit more dishonest ? We have had players like that doing this kind of thing before and sometimes made sure we knew they were cheating, but what about all the others that we never figured out ? How do you think that affects legit players ?

Besides, the point has been made before, that someone who gets a top 1 score or top 3 is obviously a dedicated player, so finding out how to record is his problem. In your case, I think you could either find the recording equipment or record with MAME.

[PROMETHEUS]

However, at least for me, getting a recording of every run i do would be a pretty big hassle.

I would think a photo is enough for a proof of scores done on a PCB.

It is only if you can prove the photo is from a PCB. That's not easy, you'd have to film what is inside the cab and all O_O But I guess it should be doable. Film the insides of cab + the screen with the high score. On that particular topic I have an awesome pic to post lol but can't upload it yet, will come soon.

NTSC-J ;)

[Eaglet]

Remember what I said Eric, what if I post a 700M DDP score ? I can do it in savestate, and you might think I'm honest enough that I would never do it, but what about someone just a tad bit more dishonest ? We have had players like that doing this kind of thing before and sometimes made sure we knew they were cheating, but what about all the others that we never figured out ? How do you think that affects legit players ?

Don't you think the situation should be a bit different for PCB-players though?

I mean, if you wanna be real thorough you could just submit a short recording of the score table on the screen and then show the insides of the cab as proof of it running the PCB.
As far as i know there is no possibility of cheating (default settings) on a PCB.


edit: lol same time