CAVE staff quitting

[BulletMagnet]

DDP Maximum was paid for 100% by Microsoft to be an exclusive for their Windows phones. Cave lost nothing, and gained only profits from this venture.

Do you have a source for that (preferably English, though I doubt that exists)? I can't imagine that this sort of deal happens very often...

[rancor]

PM'd

[burgerkingdiamond]

are/were they actually going to port sdoj? Or are people just speculating?

[VixyNyan]

So wait, if this is happening and Saidaioujou 360 may be at a risk of cancellation, then why release a trailer? o.o

Also I don't know the exact sales figure or number of people who bought Maximum, but at TrueAchievements site, about 529 has bought it from the WP7 Marketplace. With that many buyers, times the cost of the game (435yen), that would be about 230115yen (it could be more than that tho). ^^;;

Maybe Cave should have taken the chance to put their games on other platforms after all.

By the way, how did the sales of the PCB boards for Mushihime-sama (Matsuri?) v1.5 and Saidaioujou go?

are/were they actually going to port sdoj? Or are people just speculating?

Yes they are/were going to port it to the 360, to be released in Spring next year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwjAi027Zno
http://andriasang.com/con2d3/dodonpachi ... ujou_x360/

[trap15]

The Matsuri version of Mushi was obviously a very limited run, so it probably didn't make that much.

On the other hand, SDOJ appears to have sold like hotcakes. I think they're on, what, the 3rd or 4th print run now?

[Op Intensify]

So wait, if this is happening and Saidaioujou 360 may be at a risk of cancellation, then why release a trailer? o.o

Sure as hell wouldn't be the first time promotional footage was released for a canceled game.

[TLB]

I'm curious to know how many of the people posting in this thread realize how little information they have relative to CAVE themselves. Let them do their fucking jobs; they'll ask you for your opinion when they want it. (Remember Guwange? What a fuckin lame idea.)

Just my humble $0.02. No, not .02 cents, or .2¢.

[rancor]

The Matsuri version of Mushi was obviously a very limited run, so it probably didn't make that much.
On the other hand, SDOJ appears to have sold like hotcakes. I think they're on, what, the 3rd or 4th print run now?

Mushi matsuri barely made it into the double-digits production wise.
My SDOJ PCB is the 3rd run (June 2012) and there haven't been any more to my knowledge.
It's been a good money maker for CAVE, according to the dudes I talked to at TRY.

[ancestral-knowledge]

stupid question:

Do you have the possibility to upgrade a PCB or do you have to buy a new PCB every time they release a new version of the game? If you have the possibility to upgrade, how do you do it?

[rancor]

I know that some Ibara Kuro boards were converted to regular Ibara a few years ago. I can't remember who it was, but someone here was selling one of those conversions a while back. No idea how they did it.

edit: It's not done by the user - you have to send it back to CAVE for the reprogramming. Wasn't CAVE offering a bugfix for the original Mushihimesama boards a few years ago for around ~$250?

[gray117]

I think thread title might be a little misleading; staffers aren't quitting, two management individuals have; they weren't developers were they?

If anything doesn't this leave arcade/shmup staff in positions of more reliance/responsibility? Obviously it's a little alarming that the larger parent may struggle, but I don't think this has triggered layoffs or broken niche shmup development?

[Cuilan]

While (almost) everyone who liked Cave since before the start of this generation and wanted to play their newer games eventually bought a 360 (like I did), limiting their games to a dying arcade scene and the most niche console in Japan certainly didn't help them broaden their fanbase by attracting NEW customers. That's a fact. They should at least have ported their games to PSN and released them around the world.

Dear Cave, you have a staff of 100 people. Either have them do something that generates income, or prepare to follow the footsteps of Irem.

PS.
While it may be too late, I think it's worth mentioning that right now a PS3 dev kit costs $2,000 USD or less.

Going back to this, why don't we take a look at how Cave shmups performed on the high & mighty PS2?

Here we have Mushihime-sama: http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/2228
Here we have Espgaluda: http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/1887
Here we have DDPDOJ: http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/1279

In spite of the PS2's considerably larger hardware install base in Japan relative to the 360's after a comparable amount of time, we see that sales numbers are pretty much the same, with the only noteworthy outlier being DOJ in terms of lifetime sales. Ibara isn't even in the database since its sales were apparently far too low.

Compare to the performance of Cave games on the 360: http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?publisher=Cave&opt=0
Plus Ketsui: http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/3953
Plus DOJBL: http://garaph.info/softwareindividual.php//gid/3442

Now let's compare the performance of DOJ PS2 to Deathsmiles 360: DOJ's lifetime sales are ~38k, whereas those of Deathsmiles are ~34k when you add the Platinum release. DOJ only managed around 4k sales more despite being on a console with an install base that was considerably larger, relatively speaking. On top of that, the number for Deathsmiles doesn't take into account the unknown number of digital copies sold via Games on Demand, nor does it include the ~30k copies from the US release, nor the unknown number of copies sold from the European release.

That said, comparing the sales between the PS2 and 360 ports of Mushihime-sama shows us that porting a shmup to another console won't result in considerably higher sales, even if the later port is of much higher quality (also see Mamoru-kun for another example). In the case of the PS3, porting a 2D shmup isn't as simple as buying a dev kit. Would the cost of investing in PS3 ports be outweighed by the few extra sales? That's hard to say, but it doesn't seem like a smart risk to take for a company that is in dire financial straights like Cave. Especially if Sony really is as aggressive towards these types of games as has been heavily rumored and implied through action.

[deexor]

Deathsmiles also scares off/creeps out a wide demographic. It's also the perfect counter-example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC6zgpvMVaI#t=634s nah can't be

[Friendly]

While (almost) everyone who liked Cave since before the start of this generation and wanted to play their newer games eventually bought a 360 (like I did), limiting their games to a dying arcade scene and the most niche console in Japan certainly didn't help them broaden their fanbase by attracting NEW customers. That's a fact. They should at least have ported their games to PSN and released them around the world.

Dear Cave, you have a staff of 100 people. Either have them do something that generates income, or prepare to follow the footsteps of Irem.

PS.
While it may be too late, I think it's worth mentioning that right now a PS3 dev kit costs $2,000 USD or less.

Going back to this, why don't we take a look at how Cave shmups performed on the high & mighty PS2?

PS2 was region-locked and none of Cave's games were released outside of Japan.
Are we really arguing that limiting the exposure in your homecountry to a niche platform like Cave did with 360 is not a bad thing?

[Cuilan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC6zgpvMVaI#t=634s nah can't be

Well, I can admit that DS2 may have gone a bit too far in some places. And perhaps the sales suffered as a result, since DS2X didn't sell quite as well as DS1.

Also, that playthrough isn't nearly as controversial as it could have been. They should have done a Casper+Lei playthrough instead.

PS2 was region-locked and none of Cave's games were released outside of Japan.

360 is semi-region locked and a number of Cave's games have been released outside of Japan. Some Japan-only games are also region-free. What point are you trying to make?

Are we really arguing that limiting the exposure in your homecountry to a niche platform like Cave did with 360 is not a bad thing?

Sales numbers show that it makes little, if any, difference. Did you even bother to look at the links I posted? And it also depends on how much time/money/effort it would take to port games to another console, and whether the potential sales make it worth the effort.

Looking at a day-1 multiplatform shmup release like Under Defeat HD shows us that there's no real gain from that strategy either. Neither version managed to get into the top 50 for the week they went on sale. I'd waged that all it resulted in was splitting the fanbase, and that it would have collectively sold about as well if it had been available on a single platform. It's also worth noting that G.rev is another company that has made some questionable business decisions in the past, and has suffered for it.

[Friendly]

Are we really arguing that limiting the exposure in your homecountry to a niche platform like Cave did with 360 is not a bad thing?

Sales numbers show that it makes little, if any, difference. Did you even bother to look at the links I posted? And it also depends on how much time/money/effort it would take to port games to another console, and whether the potential sales make it worth the effort.

Looking at a day-1 multiplatform shmup release like Under Defeat HD shows us that there's no real gain from that strategy either.

Under Defeat is a 7-year old game that was never that popular in the first place. You can't equate the re-release of UD to the release of new and previously unported Cave games (which are fan favourites).
There is no way to know how Cave games would sell on PSN; but there is no reason to assume they woundn't have made MORE money that way.

[Cuilan]

There is no way to know how Cave games would sell on PSN; but there is no reason to assume they woundn't have made MORE money that way.

In the case of the PS3, porting a 2D shmup isn't as simple as buying a dev kit. Would the cost of investing in PS3 ports be outweighed by the few extra sales? That's hard to say, but it doesn't seem like a smart risk to take for a company that is in dire financial straights like Cave. Especially if Sony really is as aggressive towards these types of games as has been heavily rumored and implied through action.

.

[Friendly]

There is no way to know how Cave games would sell on PSN; but there is no reason to assume they woundn't have made MORE money that way.

In the case of the PS3, porting a 2D shmup isn't as simple as buying a dev kit. Would the cost of investing in PS3 ports be outweighed by the few extra sales? That's hard to say, but it doesn't seem like a smart risk to take for a company that is in dire financial straights like Cave. Especially if Sony really is as aggressive towards these types of games as has been heavily rumored and implied through action.

.

If a tiny no-name company without money and a staff of what, five? like Rockin' Android can manage to port Gundeadligne, Gundemonium Recollection and Hitogata Happa (vertical, no 16:9 mode) to PSN, then Cave with its workforce of 150 people should also be able to port their games, one would assume.

[chempop]

While comparing sales of PS2 and 360 games is interesting, I think it proves only one main thing - that shmups did not take off like they had hoped they would (and needed them to?). It must have really sucked having a decent success (Deathsmiles) and then see so many other great ports struggle to match it's sales. Cave has tried quite a few different things this generation, I wonder about their non-shmup titles, how the online store performed, and most of all - if they will ever make another Mushi and Galuda...

[Op Intensify]

I'm very interested to see whether Cave pursues the NESiCA platform further, which has apparently been quite a success for arcade developers. It eliminates piracy, makes distribution far easier and cheaper, and gives developers a cut of operator's collections.

Ports of DSIIX and Ketsuipachi would be safe bets for profitability, and it would be a good pathway for a bugfixed release of SDOJ (+ possibly a Black Label). Unfortunately, vertical NESiCA cabs have very poor distribution at this time.

[AntiFritz]

I'm very interested to see whether Cave pursues the NESiCA platform further, which has apparently been quite a success for arcade developers. It eliminates piracy, makes distribution far easier and cheaper, and gives developers a cut of operator's collections.

Ports of DSIIX and Ketsuipachi would be safe bets for profitability, and it would be a good pathway for a bugfixed release of SDOJ (+ possibly a Black Label). Unfortunately, vertical NESiCA cabs have very poor distribution at this time.

If cave really got behind nesica I'm sure arcade owners would probably buy more vertical cabs strictly for them (assuming say if all new cave games were nesica only or something).

[Cuilan]

If a tiny no-name company without money and a staff of what, five? like Rockin' Android can manage to port Gundeadligne, Gundemonium Recollection and Hitogata Happa (vertical, no 16:9 mode) to PSN, then Cave with its workforce of 150 people should also be able to port their games, one would assume.

If only it was as simple as you're implying.

Perhaps a smaller and more focused company is easier to maintain and manage? Perhaps focusing on localization and publishing of games other companies (or doujin studios) fund and develop is less of a financial risk?

Also note that the PSN release of Hitogata Happa lacks tate, unlike the PC release Rockin' Android published. And as far as I know, those games are stretched to fit a wide-screen resolution on PSN by default, and with very limited resizing options. Those things were mandated by Sony, by the way. I don't think most of Cave's fanbase would be too happy if such changes were done to their favorite Cave games. And it was also Sony who chose to publish these games on PSN, but they haven't published any more in a while. I wonder why...

Perhaps Sara can chime in on this.

While comparing sales of PS2 and 360 games is interesting, I think it proves only one main thing - that shmups did not take off like they had hoped they would (and needed them to?). It must have really sucked having a decent success (Deathsmiles) and then see so many other great ports struggle to match it's sales.

I believe they have mismanagement mainly to thank for it. What the higher-ups should have done, is ask the shmup division to create more games that mimicked Deathsmiles in terms of structure and gameplay features, but this is exactly what they did not do (other than Deathsmiles 2, but that has other issues attached to it also).

[Illyrian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC6zgpvMVaI#t=634s nah can't be

Well, I can admit that DS2 may have gone a bit too far in some places. And perhaps the sales suffered as a result, since DS2X didn't sell quite as well as DS1.

Also, that playthrough isn't nearly as controversial as it could have been. They should have done a Casper+Lei playthrough instead.

PS2 was region-locked and none of Cave's games were released outside of Japan.

360 is semi-region locked and a number of Cave's games have been released outside of Japan. Some Japan-only games are also region-free. What point are you trying to make?

Are we really arguing that limiting the exposure in your homecountry to a niche platform like Cave did with 360 is not a bad thing?

Sales numbers show that it makes little, if any, difference. Did you even bother to look at the links I posted? And it also depends on how much time/money/effort it would take to port games to another console, and whether the potential sales make it worth the effort.

Looking at a day-1 multiplatform shmup release like Under Defeat HD shows us that there's no real gain from that strategy either. Neither version managed to get into the top 50 for the week they went on sale. I'd waged that all it resulted in was splitting the fanbase, and that it would have collectively sold about as well if it had been available on a single platform. It's also worth noting that G.rev is another company that has made some questionable business decisions in the past, and has suffered for it.

I'd suggest DS IIX's sales had more to do with the shit graphics and bad gameplay.

But hey, like 18k people have watched that video...maybe 1 or 2 might buy the game because of it? Nah who am I kidding, no "normal" person is gonna buy Deathsmiles IIX after seeing that ending video.

[Cuilan]

I'd suggest DS IIX's sales had more to do with the shit graphics and bad gameplay.

But hey, like 18k people have watched that video...maybe 1 or 2 might buy the game because of it? Nah who am I kidding, no "normal" person is gonna buy Deathsmiles IIX after seeing that ending video.

DS2X did not have bad gameplay. In fact, I'd say it plays better overall than DS1 does. It's also Cave's 2nd best-selling 360 port, and its Japan-only sales aren't very far behind DS1's.

The issue with it was the PC-based arcade hardware they put together for it.

[Illyrian]

Alright I'll retract my "bad gameplay" statement, but maintain my "shit graphics" statement

[finisherr]

Some ideas. Just brainstorming:

Use Superplays to properly promote the games

Watching a skilled player completely dominate any shmup is amazing to watch. Hell, stumbling across superplays of Futari ultimately got me interested in modern shooters. Games should be efficiently promoted with superplays and actually come with superplays. In fact, it might even be a better idea to only showcase the final stage boss executed by an advanced player. This has potential to get people psyched about playing shmups for the right reasons instead of being confused about "how short" they are. We don't want the games to change too much. I think we just want people to see the real value in the games, which can be achieved through the right kind of promotion (I think).

Do not allow credit feeding on ports

I know this seems strict, but we need to give players incentive here. I think a good system might be forcing a one credit situation on players, but allowing players to unlock levels once they reach the level on one credit. That is to say, once they reach that level, they should be able to "train" on that level in the training section. If the games come with a video of the mysterious final stage boss and the superplay player completely slaying it, I think it might creative enough excitement and incentive to want to put in the hard work and get there.

Unlock difficulty modes

It might be a good idea to have ports with futari styled difficulty modes, only that in the port you have to unlock the mode by clearing the preceding mode on one credit. Again, this is gameplay incentive here. If you can play every part of the game right out of the box, there is almost no point for most gamers. I think they need to feel like they're earning their right to play certain parts of the game.

Tutorials and Mini-Games

Might be a good idea to have tutorials and mini-games. Interactive tutorials that basically teach you how to score, dodge patterns, etc.

Mini-Games should be something you unlock as you get farther and farther in the game. For example, you make it to the stage 2 boss so a mini-game is unlocked. In the mini-game section, the game challenges you on dodging certain patterns with exponentially climbing rank or something like that. The longer you dodge, the more achievements you get.

Unlock arcade mode

Once you've cleared the game on a certain number of difficulty settings, Arcade Mode is something that should be unlockable. In this mode, the player should get EXACTLY what is in the arcade, with continues (except with an HD overhaul), enter coin prompts, true final bosses etc.

Promote the games as privileged arcade hits right in your home

Basically, I think Cave are kind of selling it wrong. Back in the day, the arcade was amazing because you got to play all of these awesome games you couldn't play anywhere else. With the introduction of home gaming consoles, this allure sorta started to fade a bit I think. Now, most gaming occurs on the home console (duh).

The advantage here is positioning. When you play Cave games, you're not playing a home console video game (every day crap), you're playing an arcade game (ooooo, different, interesting, nostalgic). I'm not gonna get into it, but there are huge opportunities for positioning and promotion. Get superplays posted with interviews of the player, what stick he uses, what cabs he prefers, high score rivalries between skilled players. I mean, I think they're watering down their brand with this iOS crap they're pushing. In any case, if they're smart about it, they could have many many players just seething to unlock the true arcade mode, which is the whole allure from the start.

[Op Intensify]

Mini-Games

This. We need more extras like Tsukaima Race in DSIIX (which they even bothered to make online leaderboards + replays for).

Get superplays posted with interviews of the player, what stick he uses, what cabs he prefers, high score rivalries between skilled players. I mean, I think they're watering down their brand with this iOS crap they're pushing. In any case, if they're smart about it, they could have many many players just seething to unlock the true arcade mode, which is the whole allure from the start.

And this. Promote score-centric shmups as you would tournament fighting games.

[Aliquantic]

This. We need more extras like Tsukaima Race in DSIIX (which they even bothered to make online leaderboards + replays for).

Which leaves a very bitter taste in your mouth when Arcade mode has no replays or training mode in DSII, and was a complete glitchy mess until the patch, and pretty bad for slowdown post-patch (on the first few credits, then it gradually gets better). Priorities!

[Op Intensify]

Why would you even play DSII Arcade Mode when DSIIX Mode exists, though? It's a huge improvement in every possible way.

[Hagane]

Do not allow credit feeding on ports

I know this seems strict, but we need to give players incentive here. I think a good system might be forcing a one credit situation on players, but allowing players to unlock levels once they reach the level on one credit. That is to say, once they reach that level, they should be able to "train" on that level in the training section. If the games come with a video of the mysterious final stage boss and the superplay player completely slaying it, I think it might creative enough excitement and incentive to want to put in the hard work and get there.

I think this would be a great idea and would reduce the "quarter munchers that can be cleared in 30 minutes" criticism we often see in casual players a bit.

I don't like unlocking core game options such as difficulty modes though. You could instead have easier difficulty modes, but leave the best unlockables (extra game modes, illustrations, BGM modes, etc) for the hardest mode. You could also have TLBs or extra final stages for the hardest setting only, to promote getting better at the game.