CAVE staff quitting

[Friendly]

While (almost) everyone who liked Cave since before the start of this generation and wanted to play their newer games eventually bought a 360 (like I did), limiting their games to a dying arcade scene and the most niche console in Japan certainly didn't help them broaden their fanbase by attracting NEW customers. That's a fact. They should at least have ported their games to PSN and released them around the world.

Dear Cave, you have a staff of 100 people. Either have them do something that generates income, or prepare to follow the footsteps of Irem.

PS.
While it may be too late, I think it's worth mentioning that right now a PS3 dev kit costs $2,000 USD or less.

[e_tank]

i agree with Friendly, cave has grown too big for a company that pretty much only targets a niche market. if they're interested in sustaining that growth then they have to start appealing to a wider audience and not just make arcade shooters all the time (see treasure).

so to save their business, and have their cake and eat it to, i propose cave make a spiritual successor to the guardian legend, and it should have a well thought out shooter only mode to appeal to their core audience - unlike the after thought of a shooting mode the "tgl" password would get you (not that it wasn't good, especially for its time, but it clearly was an after thought)

there, i saved your fucking business in the short term. CHECK PLZ!

[Ganelon]

Dear Cave, you have a staff of 100 people. Either have them do something that generates income, or prepare to follow the footsteps of Irem.

Wow, I never noticed that before but 153 employees seems like insane overhead for a company that specializes in 2D shooters.

As for fighting games, the genre wasn't ever dead, but mainstream gamers became quite intolerant of fighters that didn't have a huge amount of features. That's why Tekken pushed for costumes, Soulcalibur included detailed stories, and Mortal Kombat always tried to throw in the kitchen sink. The gaming population adopting broadband internet, nostalgia of the early 90s, solid 3D visuals, a pro-newbie desperation mechanic, and a fresh return to fighters are what helped Capcom's latest fighters succeed despite still offering little beyond the minimum. And that's why Capcom is being called out again for lack of content.

If fighting game creators other than Capcom, NetherRealm, and Namco really want a shot at breaking the genre stranglehold in the US, then step 1 is to cut the anime characters. Like it or not, anime and mecha don't appeal to mainstream audiences (for the latter, no matter how many folks say "giant robots are cool!"). Even Dragon Ball is nowhere near the cash cow it used to be.

Back to Cave, it's difficult to consider how they can right the ship for the long term in the modern market. Today's advances in HD visuals, online play, digital sound, and analog sticks don't really help 2D shooters. A competitive shooter such as Twinkle Star Sprites was already proven in the PS2 era to draw little interest. Cave does have some characters recognized amongst JP gamers that they could "exploit" but Valis X showed that going the mature route might kill the brand and attract no cash. I'm not even convinced that pachinko is an option with Cave's lack of mascot characters and brands. Laying off human capital sucks for everyone involved but I'm with everyone that it does seem to be Cave's logical next step to save the company if there's no breakthrough soon.

[pestro87]

As far as I've understood it, there's only a small percentage of those 100+ employers that works at the department that produces shmups. Tbh, I'm not convinced that the issues that the company is facing is a result of the decisions that were made related to their shmup games.

[trap15]

BEADSMANIA!

[Cuilan]

...limiting their games to a dying arcade scene and the most niche console in Japan certainly didn't help them broaden their fanbase by attracting NEW customers. That's a fact.

I would argue that creating great games that appeal to a wider demographic is far more important. Deathsmiles being the perfect example.

[ebarrett]

...limiting their games to a dying arcade scene and the most niche console in Japan certainly didn't help them broaden their fanbase by attracting NEW customers. That's a fact.

I would argue that creating great games that appeal to a wider demographic is far more important. Deathsmiles being the perfect example.

Deathsmiles also scares off/creeps out a wide demographic. It's also the perfect counter-example.

[KAI]

More Yagawa, the hard way.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Yeah, there's really little doubt left at this point that SDOJ on 360 will be their swan song. If it even makes it to market. If not for Microsoft Japan's good graces, we'd never be hearing about it in the first place. I'm placing my bet on 2013 being their final year of business, at least in the arcade/console sectors.

We could see the remaining staff migrate to a newly formed studio when they inevitably fold, like what's happening with Irem right now, though they'd probably only make iOS Temple Run clones or some shit.

Perhaps they should merge with G-Rev? Or maybe Square-Enix would be willing to bring them under the Taito blanket? I don't think Atlus cares about them anymore. I guess if they totally go under, it's going to be a lot harder for Rising Star to get a hold of the licenses.

Man, Japan needs its own version of Kickstarter so badly.

Interesting bit of speculation there.

Next Darius sequel developed by ex-Cave staff?

[Cuilan]

Deathsmiles also scares off/creeps out a wide demographic. It's also the perfect counter-example.

What demographic is that? Mostly people who don't have any real interest in shmups regardless, or who wouldn't spend more than $5 on a digital download of their favorite Raiden game from their childhood? Keep in mind that Deathsmiles has brought Cave greater success than any of their non-creepy games, and is almost certainly one of (or even is) the best selling shmups in recent history.

[IseeThings]

Deathsmiles also scares off/creeps out a wide demographic. It's also the perfect counter-example.

What demographic is that? Mostly people who don't have any real interest in shmups regardless, or who wouldn't spend more than $5 on a digital download of their favorite Raiden game? Keep in mind that Deathsmiles has brought Cave greater success than any of their non-creepy games, and is almost certainly one of (or even is) the best selling shmups in recent history.

Deathsmiles, while a bit 'creepy' was also a good value package, containing a ton of bonus content and all the game modes *in the box*. I bought it primarily for that reason, how many others did the same?

It also has the advantage of being a horizontal game, and with pretty much everybody having 16:9 screens these days verts look more than a bit silly, moreso than they did back when Ikaruga was released.

Of course that raises an interesting question, could they make the verts 2 (or 4) player games with 2 copies running side-by-side and 'ghost' the 2nd player into the other screens, adding 'leader' functions etc?

[DragonInstall]

Shmups are a niche thing. There really is no way to appeal to the mass without really overhauling what we expect in a shmup. CAVE's down fall is not due to their games not being multi platform.

Maybe CAVE should make a game kind of like star fox if they want to attract a ton of people. With the way shmups from them work right now, it'll never be accepted / appreciated by main stream gamers.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

Maybe after Cave goes under the ex-employees start up some new shooting game companies. Like when Toaplan went out of business.

[Deca]

It was time, I honestly feel like this is good news. They either get their shit together via a change in what has recently been awful leadership (I'm disappointed Asada hasn't left yet) and turn it around, or they go out of business. Both are better than what they've been doing for the past year or two, the pandering and scheming is long past the point of being pathetic.

I just hope this allows talented team members to move on to new projects and studios of their own, even if it's relegated to doujin projects.

[IseeThings]

It was time, I honestly feel like this is good news. They either get their shit together via a change in what has recently been awful leadership (I'm disappointed Asada hasn't left yet) and turn it around, or they go out of business. Both are better than what they've been doing for the past year or two, the pandering and scheming is long past the point of being pathetic.

I just hope this allows talented team members to move on to new projects and studios of their own, even if it's relegated to doujin projects.

The 153 staff thing is shocking really, I've worked at places with 5-6 (3 main programmers, 2 main artists, sound work sub-contracted out) and we've put out titles with more content than most Cave titles.

So yes, maybe it is good news if the core people who actually care about making shooters form a new company and concentrate on just that, you don't need a massive team for this kind of thing, or the social / mobile apps.

[SuperPang]

I don't know where to start with this thread.

[Cuilan]

(I'm disappointed Asada hasn't left yet)

Why would they get rid of the man who is largely responsible for their most successful shmups in recent memory? I don't think one stupid mistake (Instant Brain) is enough reason to let him go. Just look at Yagawa. Every shmup he's done under Cave has been a bomb, and yet they still keep him employed.

But I suppose doing something like keeping Yagawa and firing Asada is exactly what a mismanaged company like Cave would do.

[Deca]

How's that horse racing thing going? And what about DDP Maximum? I'm not sure how DS2 actually did but it doesn't seem like it was particularly successful (I could be horribly wrong here). It just seemed to me as though Asada's rise to power sort of coincided with Cave starting to lose their minds. I always felt like he was responsible for a lot of the pandering I already mentioned.

At any rate, I didn't say that I was disappointed Cave hadn't fired Asada but rather that I was disappointed he hadn't jumped ship of his own volition.

I think I'd like to see some of the more dedicated members go on to doujin projects. Things motivated by a desire to make good games without being diluted by a need to market and meet profit margins.

[Cuilan]

I'm not sure how DS2 actually did but it doesn't seem like it was particularly successful (I could be horribly wrong here).

Indeed you are. It's their 2nd-best selling shmup of the current generation.

http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?publisher=Cave&opt=0

As for DDP Maximum, it's a mobile game cobbled together from preexisting assets. I seriously doubt its cost of production is anywhere near that of something like Instant Brain, and this can also be applied to that horse racing game. Personally, I think it makes more sense to lay the blame on the executives who green-lighted such risky endeavors without actively supervising the production process.

It just seemed to me as though Asada's rise to power sort of coincided with Cave starting to lose their minds.

The Yagawa situation proves that it started long before.

[Deca]

Personally, I think it makes more sense to lay the blame on the executives who green-lighted such risky endeavors without actively supervising the production process.

Completely fair, I agree.

The Yagawa situation proves that it started long before.

Barking up the wrong tree here, I love Yagawa The trend I referred to had more to do with the loli/ero/whatever content becoming more and more prominent in the games as a marketing hook. While some of the later Yagawa projects were just as guilty of this as everything else, the one that came out before Futari (Ibara) was pretty straightforward in its presentation. It definitely seems like they started resorting to superficial means in an attempt to draw a wider audience.

[Op Intensify]

It definitely seems like they started resorting to superficial means in an attempt to draw a wider audience.

But it obviously worked, didn't it? The Deathsmiles games were their biggest success this gen.

I can also guarantee you that Senko no Ronde would have been a complete flop in Japan if not for its characters.

Perhaps some dramatic restructuring right now would be in Cave's best interests, as long as it's not at the expense of shmup development.

[renardqueenston]

I don't know where to start with this thread.

i'm with you

[PinkSweets]

http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?publisher=Cave&opt=0

LOL @ "Large back Anger Bees boss"

[Skykid]

It definitely seems like they started resorting to superficial means in an attempt to draw a wider audience.

But it obviously worked, didn't it? The Deathsmiles games were their biggest success this gen.

A sad truth, especially as it's one of the weakest in their canon imo. Then again the west identified the usefulness of sensationalism to sell products of average value since forever.

Cave staff quitting/restructuring doesn't spell instant doom for the company, I'd wait for a little more concrete evidence before everyone starts kicking Yagawa in the balls.

[ptoing]

^ Agree about the Yagawa thing there. Lots of people seem to like SDOJ and that game seems more than a bit inspired by what he did in DFK BL. I guess it is likely that even if Cave goes under (which I doubt at this point) the people like Ikeda and Yagawa and others behind the shmups stuff will either form a new outfit or will join other outfits such as Qute perhaps and bring in their experience there.

I remember Ikeda said something along the lines of "I am doing shmups because I am good at them", so I doubt he will stop doing it, given the chance, at Cave or wherever.

[Cuilan]

Barking up the wrong tree here, I love Yagawa The trend I referred to had more to do with the loli/ero/whatever content becoming more and more prominent in the games as a marketing hook. While some of the later Yagawa projects were just as guilty of this as everything else, the one that came out before Futari (Ibara) was pretty straightforward in its presentation. It definitely seems like they started resorting to superficial means in an attempt to draw a wider audience.

You shouldn't allow your personal feelings to get in the way of reason. History has shown us that "creepy" themes won't lead to a shmup with generally unfavorable gameplay to sell well, but its inclusion in a game with generally favorable gameplay can arguably improve sales. Just look at Akai Katana's sales in that link I posted, and it's a fairly inoffensive game visually, is it not? (it also had heavy Yagawa involvement)

I'd wait for a little more concrete evidence before everyone starts kicking Yagawa in the balls.

I don't think anyone should blame him regardless. This is entirely the fault of Cave's (ex) upper management. The onus of determining what games should and shouldn't be funded, and who should and shouldn't be working on what, rests entirely on their shoulders.

[KAI]

Talking about quitting. Cave sound team, what happened to them?

[Aliquantic]

While some of the later Yagawa projects were just as guilty of this as everything else, the one that came out before Futari (Ibara) was pretty straightforward in its presentation. It definitely seems like they started resorting to superficial means in an attempt to draw a wider audience.

Ibara does have "in your face" pantyshots as your reward for beating a stage, and fairly risque character designs... not quite the same orientation as Deathsmiles true, and Cave wasn't into questionable goodies, hentai-looking covers or calling their games "eroge STG" (Pink Sweets) then. Even DOJ isn't exactly innocent, or the Ketsui characters... after that it's all YMMV, and how pervasive the aesthetics are.

[rancor]

And what about DDP Maximum?

DDP Maximum was paid for 100% by Microsoft to be an exclusive for their Windows phones. Cave lost nothing, and gained only profits from this venture. It's under exclusive contract for a few more years but I would imagine that when that time is up (and assuming they're still around) it will be released to other systems (most likely iOS, right?)

[Deca]

That's actually really interesting, I had no idea.