third_strike wrote:By the way, posted a Galuda score early this week without picture or replay and nobody doubted and it was fake.
Some people certainly suspected, but didn't care too much, because 1. you had scores in that range since forever, 2. people knew that you wanted to prove a point, and 3. it was fuckin' hilarious.
I mean, it's fishy as all hell, but for this person to be cheating there'd need to be a method for them to use in order to actually cheat. If one doesn't exist, then this person can't actually be cheating. I suggest that if you really care about the run being fake then you should find out how the run was cheated first.
I mean, it's fishy as all hell, but for this person to be cheating there'd need to be a method for them to use in order to actually cheat. If one doesn't exist, then this person can't actually be cheating. I suggest that if you really care about the run being fake then you should find out how the run was cheated first.
But yea that stage 5 extend wtf
there is a ton of 360 hacks, can't you just mess with the cpu or something to force lower speed?
Maybe people have and we just don't know about it, and would it even change anything? In fact, I'd rather an exact method be kept secret so others don't go abusing it. Regardless, it isn't the exact method that's important or even relevant. The replay that is supposed to be used as a passive validation instead quickly turns into evidence pointing towards cheating. You can't afterwards claim it isn't cheating just because you don't know how it happened. Come on SW.
I'm having a hard time believing the people who think that run is legit have ever watched a shmup replay in their life. There are times and places where luck-dodging happens and makes sense. There were none in that run.
"she" has a couple of deathsmiles runs on her youtube channel. I skimmed through the casper run and it's basically just a crap 1cc. Lots of bombing, lots of dying, low score. Nothing that would lead me to believe that the same person would ever 1-miss god mode. The black label run is an obvious fake.
How this person did it i have no idea. Maybe taking the idea of the programable pad one step further, is there a way to build an .inp file on a computer and then interface that to the xbox 360's usb port? That would be my guess.
Maybe we could have a mod do an ip check to see where vixynyan is posting from? This reminds me of another cheater from the street fighter 4 vanilla days who also claimed to be a girl from sweden. Turned out to be a dude from the midwest iirc.
Well, we don't exactly know just how long she plays. How long sessions are. How focused on specific games or if spread the time around. It's definitely possible to improve that much in under a year. Now, some of that stuff should just never have happened in a run, but it's definitely possible to get a Spiritual Larsa clear in under a year if you dedicated enough time to it.
I mean, I'm sure I could get some great runs if I actually spent time focusing on 1 game. But I prefer to play various STG and even other genres, so I end up sucking at them. But I hope to do some more focused play on 2-3 STGs next year, so hopefully I can do a bit better in those. But of course, the playing all sorts of stuff from other genres would probably get me.
but it's definitely possible to get a Spiritual Larsa clear in under a year if you dedicated enough time to it.
Sure, anythings possible. But only 3 people on these boards have managed it. And a clear that takes that much practice just wouldn't look that sloppy. The run isn't really optimized for either scoring or survival.
The video looks to me exactly like the one I did in Saviors using debug mode, playing the stages on hardest difficulty using 50% game speed. The difference between that run and the legit run I practiced for an week was quite obvious.
Drake wrote:Maybe people have and we just don't know about it, and would it even change anything? In fact, I'd rather an exact method be kept secret so others don't go abusing it. Regardless, it isn't the exact method that's important or even relevant. The replay that is supposed to be used as a passive validation instead quickly turns into evidence pointing towards cheating. You can't afterwards claim it isn't cheating just because you don't know how it happened. Come on SW.
I'm not saying it's not cheated. I'm saying it'd be better for people to focus their attentions on finding out how this person cheated than just posting "hurr obvious cheat i can tell by the pixels". I've already said it looks fishy as all hell, I just can't work out how this person might have actually done it. >_>
-There is absolutely no known specific way to get cheat runs on the leaderboards for Cave's 360 games. The programmable controller method is definitely bullshit for the game's many random elements. It also definitely can't be manipulated by inputs which you can test for yourself by going into practice and doing Stage 4 Boss without pressing anything. Still random which way the 1st attack comes at you.
-Still, are a lot of dodges which are not only absolutely insane, but put the player at a completely unnecessary risk and goes against everything you'd expect to see from someone trying to no miss the game.
-VixyNyan's explanation for this is that she didn't care about score and didn't like doing the same thing every run so she'd find different ways to dodge the patterns. She also says that it took her months to get a run like this with proof of this being that she got support from several people here the whole way. Worth noting that the people she named seem to be mostly staying out of the drama.
Honestly, I don't know what to think. Ultimately, like I said on the last page, if we're going to allow sikraiken (and Mc palhaco, lol) to do his thing it makes no sense to not allow this.
Honestly, I don't know what to think. Ultimately, like I said on the last page, if we're going to allow sikraiken (and Mc palhaco, lol) to do his thing it makes no sense to not allow this.
But keep in mind, that credibility mostly comes through reputation. Most of the top scores of this forum don't have a video proof and some don't even have pictures. I for myself have never posted a replay, but people (luckily) trust me and believe my scores. But then again, I'm a member since years, talk about my strategies a lot and post constant progress. This all makes my scores more credible.
For sikraiken it's a similiar story and on top of that he even has released a few replays. He's been into shmups and other games for years and has impressive knowledge of some games. I'm beginning to feel tired of defending him though.
Mc palhaco was only making fun of the whole falsificare situation. I'm sure third_strike would never seriously post a fake score, because for me, he has gained enough credibility. After all it's all about trusting others.
On the other hand VixyNyan came out of nowhere and posts and obvious fake replay. Even people with little experience can easily see that the movements are completely unnatural and show close to zero knowledge of Futari's bullet patterns and of dodging in general. I can't believe how anyone can take this replay serious. I don't care HOW it was done (and to an extent I don't even care), but this replay is a fucking joke.
Her argument to dodge patterns differently each time, because she "didn't like" to dodge it in the same way is hilarious and makes the whole drama even worse. That's exactly the opposite of how to approach a shmup. All your movements need to be fixed and executed pixel perfect for such an achievement.
Even having not played that game yet, I don't see anything necessarily wrong with the stage 3 1-up section. There may have been a small mistake, and just 1, but nothing too ridiculous.
That "small mistake" might probably be because of some nervous emotion from the player, which I will get into in my message below.
Hm I've been thinking, didn't the private message mention the Start button being used?
If that's the case, then I might know what happened.
Ports of (pretty much any) Arcade games landing on home consoles has the tendency of allowing you to pause the game at any given time. In most cases, you are allowed to see parts of the screen while it's covered with the usual pause menu selections like Resume, Config and all those fun things. Now, depending on the game, different pause menus has a small (or very tiny) delays as to when you can resume the game after you paused the game. For example, in MushiFutari, by pressing Start and then pressing A right after that in a repeated session can lead to a frame-by-frame movement, which can lead to an advantage for the player by avoiding enemy offensive in that fashion.
In that sense, the replay has a semi-legit (but sadly also a semi-TAS) structure to it, in which someone mentioned that it almost looks like it was played by two different players, hence the very obscene dodging patterns but still decent game play in "some" areas. From what I understand, from reading that private message, is that only a standard controller manufactured by Microsoft was used for the run, but unfortunately, the Start button was used for "some" aspects of the run (not necessarily all of them, like bosses for example, if not counting that strange dodge in Stage 3 boss of course, among others).
I do believe that there has been situations in the run where enemy bullets were filled on the screen, and it was too overflowing for her little mind to handle, that she probably couldn't have picked another route to avoid the bullets, although it appears she "really wanted" to take the easier paths but couldn't find any at those precise moments. It doesn't appear that she was being ignorant, it just didn't seem like she could handle some situations, so instead some (in our own point of view) irrational bullet-dodging paths or movements were taken, which I believe wasn't intentional, but more of a way to find another route to reach the True Last Boss without much unnecessary deaths. When looking at the shaky situations, it looks like she was at a nervous state, not knowing how to fly past bullets in a easier way.
Now, I've skimmed through this individual's records of both youtube videos and live-streaming footage of many games from many different genres in the past, and from what I seen on the screen resolution and display on each of them, they were all played on a real home console (or a PSP with a video-recording plugin), and I've also seen traces of Game Boy Players for the Gamecube being used, bordered around the game screens as well). From this analysis, the MushiFutari replay was definitely a very strange one, but judging by the other video clips of other games, this gamer still has credibility of being a somewhat skilled player, but not for MushiFutari specifically (at least for the moment), BUT.... with more practice, there is still room to do much better in reality than what the "current" replay displays.
What I believe is that, VN shouldn't have uploaded that "specific" replay to an online video-hosting service in the first place, it would put a scar on her record as a gamer. And it wouldn't have been a good idea to submit a high score either, being that the results ends up with a lot of questions and rage from the local community visitors. What would have been best is to just stick it as a part of the (already shoddy) Xbox Live service, hosted on a server for observance by other people who owns the game disc, and then move on with life, while they should come back later to the game and improve themselves to show better (and respectful) results in the future.
I do congratulate this person for completing the objectives imprinted into the game disc published and developed by Cave, and being unlocked while still connected online to the Xbox service (as can be seen by the time stamps on their account) and sticking to the rules allowed to be utilized in the port (you know, since it's not played on a PCB and all). But the method chosen for this last achievement (which anyone can do with any controller by the way) "might" have not been good to display in a public fashion, only for private use. Understandably, there is a huge amount of games in the backlog of that girl's Xbox account and so much to catch up with, and that's most likely why they wanted to speed up the process a bit by using the allowed accessories or controllers to make this huge feat happen in the first place, by still sticking to the rules and restrictions stuck into the console port of the game.
Although admirable, this would also help the gamer understand things they are allowed to do, and things they are not allowed to do in a future run being submitted publicly. The private message mentioned that she "will" come back to the game again, playing as Reco in God Mode next time, and I will stick to those words, hoping she can show that she at least beat the mode, even if lives are lost, through an actual in-moment play session (with character selection and name entry screens included), but preferably she should try to find a PCB board somewhere in the world and practice on that. With the Xbox Live service and for the fact that this is a game port, sooner or later, a method will be available (or written in a online guide somewhere) for the player to utilize (without resorting to cheat devices or hack tools of course, but still using some kind of given button by the developer for the gamer to use to the fullest).
VN, if you are reading this, you should know that, no one is hating you or mean and ill-will towards you, you still have friends that care for you. We are only concerned about the particular replay that you submitted for display in a public environment. From all the comments and other message boards that has been read with your screen name attached to them (and also image-submission sites like DeviantArt), you appear as a very friendly person that doesn't mean any harm to anyone or any community. As one can see on other online communities, this person has been keeping steady contact with many other gamers through online connections and they understand her level of gaming skills, specially when playing co-operatively on many XBLA games. As can be seen in game session feedbacks on TrueAchievements, many has shown respect to VN and her leadership, and wants to help even more.
What I would suggest is that you, VN, should "at least" confirm (or give a hint to) this claim of you using a start button during game play using a regular controller, we don't want to scare you, just a simple yes would be enough, and no one will harm you or attack you for it. From that point on, we sincerely hope that you improve your runs on MushiFutari, and show that you can do so much more, and I really think you can do that.
Chaos Phoenixma wrote:Even having not played that game yet
there's a fairly straightforward way of doing it safely that everyone uses. the movements that she makes and the way she approaches it (especially the lunge from the right side to the left side) are all wrong. they just don't look like movements done by a human hand on a stick or a pad. more importantly, check the tlb pattern at 21:20 and then at 22:00. that should be proof enough for anyone. superplayers can't make it through that section at 22:00 without bombing and manipulating the shot pattern.
SodaPopinski wrote:For example, in MushiFutari, by pressing Start and then pressing A right after that in a repeated session can lead to a frame-by-frame movement
VixyNyan wrote:But... I admit that there has been some pauses (start button) when I needed to take a break
Doesn't sound like she said she was doing what you're suggesting, just that she paused a couple of times to go to the bathroom or whatever. It'd also be annoying as hell to pause constantly with the menu popping up and forgetting which way bullets are headed, probably not an ideal way to do it if you wanted to cheat.
edit: lol, nvm, she probably was abusing the hell out of pausing
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That video seems fake as hell. It looks like it was played with lots of slowdown by a player of decent/low skill.
Also, totally disagree with you Plasmo about credibility given through reputation. That's exactly the game sikraiken has been playing for years and people have failed to understand how a competitive community works, for lack of experience in other competitive communities (sometimes while believing they are playing the most competitive genre, the paroxysm being represented by Icycalm's absurdities).
In Starcraft, we have always had cheaters among the very good players. Sometimes, even among the most famous. It is very hard to catch a "smart" cheating player, especially when they are good as well. Of course, cheating will always allow them to perform much better than they are really capable of.
In the end, you can either accept cheaters (really not a good idea), or set up some basic layers of "security". In Starcraft, this comes in the form of a Antihack program you run while playing. For Shmups, it is up to us to make our system. I've always said, replay/video is a minimum. Here, thanks to the video we can see this Mushihimesama play is too suspicious, and the player needs to provide more info, in my opinion, before their score could be accepted.
Tl;drness aside, Sodapopinski probably has the right idea. She definitely has some skill but here she abused the hell out of the pause button, which would explain all those weird twitchy dodges in between all the flailing. I watched the replay of her 1.5 Maniac clear from a few weeks ago and it's a similar deal of having very unrefined patterns but also plenty of ridiculous dodging, including a NMNB of the entire Larsa fight.
For whether or not that means it should be accepted, I have no clue. I actually do use the pause button a lot for taking a break between stages or to get a breather before a boss but definitely not during the actual dodging. Like I said, she clearly has some skills so I'd to see her come back and do some runs without the pause button abuse.
Gus wrote:I actually do use the pause button a lot for taking a break between stages or to get a breather before a boss but definitely not during the actual dodging.
Wow, I guess you really can use the pause button to get through nasty waves easily. That's probably the best explanation for the video then. Obviously there's no problem with an occasional pause (a good run shouldn't have to be ditched just because the phone rang or you had to go to the bathroom) but using the pause button as a pseudo-slowdown is definitely cheesing the game.
Just tried this in God Mode against Larsa, you can't keep tapping start as you have to hit start to pause then A to resume the game, but once I got in the rhythm it got really cheap - dodging through stuff I normally would get destroyed by or have a way harder time avoiding.
Gus wrote:
Honestly, I don't know what to think. Ultimately, like I said on the last page, if we're going to allow sikraiken (and Mc palhaco, lol) to do his thing it makes no sense to not allow this.
"If we're going to let other people cheat and post no replays/ridiculous replays with rapid twitches that scream of heavy slowdown abuse, why not let this chick make up her scores?"
Uh, how about we throw away this score because it's bullshit garbage and from now on only accept scores with adequate verification (e.g. replays that aren't horse puckey)?
I don't think I've ever seen somebody miss the point so hard.
Gus wrote:Like I said, she clearly has some skills so I'd to see her come back and do some runs without the pause button abuse.
Then why is she relying on heavy pausing/slowdown abuse to get through STAGE 1 when even a shit player like me can hammer out a stage 1 route in 3 hours tops
You're either trolling or all the blood is rushing to your dick from the idea of a girl playing shmups and your brain is losing out on vital oxygen.
