Third Person Action Game thread (DMC, NG, etc.)

[sjewkestheloon]

Any fans around these parts?

Seems to me to be a perfect genre for shmup fans due to the technical nature and focus on gameplay over everything else.

Anyone have any tidy genre tags for this sort of game?

I have liked the genre since picking up Ninja Gaiden on the original Xbox and struggling through it. I now have a reasonable selection of the most respected genre examples but have to say that my favourite is Bayonetta, which I recently got all of the achievements for but I have still not finished the lost chapter, unlocked Jeanne or opened up the secret boss even though I have logged around 100 hours.

[GateofThunderforceIII]

I'm going to love this thread! 3rd person action games are my favorite genre next to 2-D shooters! It seems, though, that the modern 3rd person actioner has blended in with the 3-D beat 'em up genre and 3-D Adventure...that's okay with me!

I'm going through 360 Bayonetta also, and before that, I finished Mad World, and before that, PS3 Max Anarchy! Platinum Games absolutely RULE!!! Yes, DMC and Ninja Gaidens are AWESOME (hell, I love NG3...I don't care what people say) but my favorite still is probably Shinobi for the PS2.

It's criminal how Enslaved has commercially bombed!

[Obiwanshinobi]

Shinobi (2002) is the daddy indeed. Hasn't been built upon (except for Kunoichi/Nightsdade) from what I know, unlike DMC.
If 3D action games with some platforming to do make for a genre, then it's one hell of a genre: from Ico through Apocalypse to Silent Bomber...
Metroid: Other M is fairly good, but seems to be one of last games of the "genre" before it gets dissolved. The likes of Uncharted take the "spectacle over challenge" approach a tad too far for my liking. The demise of Japanese slashers in the vein of DMC at their purest leaves me saddened. Not sure about this-gen Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta, but honestly, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance looks more appealing to me (I'm talking about the visuals, but this kind of hunches hardly ever fails me).
Capcom (of all companies) giving up on the genre and Nintendo coming up with Classic Controller Pro AND NOT A SINGLE PURE-BRED TPP SLASHER/PLATFORMER making use of it (haven't played The Last Tale and Monster Hunter Tri yet, but neither looks like the sort of game that is on my mind) speak volumes. Last gen even Xbox got Ninja Gaiden and Otogi (GameCube, on the other hand...)
Offtopic, another gaping hole in Wii software library Classic Controller Pro revealed are 2D games like Super Metroid, Assault Suits Valken and Metal Warriors. That I can play those emulated with a DS2 or CCP, but not a Wii game like them designed with CCP in mind speaks volumes as well. The only game a bit like those on the Wii known to me is Cave Story, PROVIDED I can map whatever I like onto any of all four triggers (not sure about that).

[CMoon]

Love this genre; need to get back to the Ninja Gaidens since I didn't finish either.

Speaking of Shinobi, I see its on the PSN now. I had most of my ps2 collection stolen 4 years ago, and maybe this one is worth getting back to.

[shmuppyLove]

Been playing God of War: Chains of Olympus on the PSP occasionally, it's alright.

Finally tried MadWorld for the first time yesterday, shit's pretty good.

I played DMC4 all the way through, but I think I tried one of two of the earlier games in the series and found the difficulty a bit too steep.

[CMoon]

Problem with MadWorld isn't just that its short but it runs out of ideas pretty quickly. The engine itself is sort of close to God Hand, but infinitely less. There is a genuine feeling like they had a great idea and then the project was aborted so they did everything they could to wrap it up into a finished project. That said, I feel about the same regarding Vanquish only I feel Vanquish is the better of the two. Neither of them ever enticed me into wanting to replay them, which is too bad.

[iconoclast]

I'm a big fan - these were my favorite games until I started getting into shumps. It's too bad that the genre is pretty much dead, though, aside from cinematic junk like God of War & its clones. Revengeance should be interesting, but I'm not expecting too much out of it.

Ninja Gaiden II + DLC is the best action game ever.

[Op Intensify]

Ninja Gaiden II + DLC is the best action game ever.

May I ask why you prefer it over the original? I'm not fond of the emphasis on insta-kill moves, the ridiculous weapon balance (Eclipse Scythe has no disadvantages against anything), or the pathetically easy and mash-friendly bosses. I also prefer NG1's more unhurried pacing and cohesive, interconnected overworld that allows for some non-linearity. It's also a game that never lets a narrative or some interactive movie BS get in the way of level and enemy design.

Of course, I'm talking about NG Black. NG1 has the broken Flying Swallow, and Sigma has a lot of cuts and unwelcome changes, as well as a lowered difficulty. The same also goes for Sigma 2.

Ninja Gaiden 3 is a piece of shit; Itagaki's absence was sorely felt. They're supposedly improving it for the Wii U version, but we'll see.

[chempop]

I used to be a big fan of the genre, before I started exclusively playing shmups.
Some favorites were:
Shinobi ps2 - extremely brutal, final boss took me around 50 attempts before getting lucky.
Blood Will Tell - decent story, lots of bosses, wished that more body parts did stuff beyond stat bonuses
Otogi 1&2 - brilliant art and music, simpler mechanics were welcomed
Bujingai - fantastic, highly under rated game, very unique counterattack system
Ninja Gaiden Xbox - terrible camera system, but the rest was perfect
God Hand - insane customizing combat system, hilariously difficult
Devil May Cry - amazing for it's time, couldn't ever wrap my head around part 3 though

For the games that are more shooting based, my favorites are:
GUNVALKYRIE - mastering the flight system is ZEN, a few parts felt unfinished, but overall a favorite
PN03 - addictive and superb, highly misunderstood game, it's like a modern space invaders at heart
Gungrave and Gungrave Overdose - arcade style, truly amazing presentation, especially the first

Games I'd love to play if I could ever sway myself away from shmups for a moment:
Bayonetta - watched friends play the hell out of this
Vanquish - looks incredible
Madworld - like the cel shades style a lot
Sin and Punishment 2 - the original is the only reason I own a N64, this looks so badass

[Op Intensify]

Really gave the game a chance, but I decided that I'm not a fan of Bayonetta. The one-button roll dodge, constant shifts in gravity and time speed, infuriating gimmick stages, and long QTE attacks give the game a really awful rhythm. I know it's disabled on the highest difficulty, but Witch Time is a rather stupid and thoughtless mechanic. It's also got excessive cinematic bullshit out the wazoo, and some terrible environmental clip-through glitches. Excepting 2 and Tameem May Cry, the DMC series plays better in every way, with its more restrained and technically demanding controls.

Also, fuck single cutscene QTEs coming out of nowhere and messing up my score runs.

I think it's more of a TPS, but has anyone here played Tsukiyo ni Saraba/10,000 Bullets (PS2)? It's one of those Japanese games that saw a European but not a US release, and I've heard some people recommend it.

[Moniker]

Nier.

Seriously though, it actually has a pretty good and intuitive combo system. Mash attack for a weapon-type-specific-length (good lord what a hyphenate) combo, and interrupt it on any given hit for a unique effect. Special attack helps you transition, and there you go. Could certainly be more fleshed out, but I found it quite refreshing after years of beating my head against Bayonetta off and on.

Anywho, favorite thus far has been DMC3. Really put the hours into that game. DMC4 was pretty meh; didn't care for Nero or most of Dante's weapons.

Dante's Inferno is actually not bad; I kinda like the leveling system. Plus it has gigantic boobs that poop out enemies.

[Op Intensify]

Nier.

I love the game too, but are we really just going to throw anything where you stab or shoot stuff in third-person into this thread? It's for the "3D Battle Action" genre exemplified by DMC and NG, and Nier really has more in common with JRPGs than those games.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also, fuck single cutscene QTEs coming out of nowhere and messing up my score runs.

I think Bayonetta's customizability and stuff like dodge offsets and whatnot makes it awesome, but I agree there's too many plot QTEs that are really, really strict with when you press the button. One fuckup is all it takes to ruin an otherwise perfectly good run, and I prefer how God Hand has no instant death QTEs in cutscenes, only for button mash damage and counters.

[Op Intensify]

Dante's Inferno is actually not bad

No, it totally is.

I mean, look.

I've heard that the final boss is Satan swinging a massive black cock at you.

[Moniker]

Nier.

I love the game too, but are we really just going to throw anything where you stab or shoot stuff in third-person into this thread? It's for the "3D Battle Action" genre exemplified by DMC and NG, and Nier really has more in common with JRPGs than those games.

Well, the metagame is JRPG, but the combat is 3D battle action, so it fits well enough. I don't really know what else to compare it to.

Dante's Inferno is actually not bad

No, it totally is.

I've heard that the final boss is Satan swinging a massive black cock at you.

I fail to see how this makes it any less awesome.

Yeah, it's a trashy GoW clone, but for some reason it hits the spot every now and then. Usually after a couple cocktails. I value the Divine Comedy over most things, including several family members, but the game's so stupidly over-the-top that it doesn't bother me. I don't regret getting it, in any case.

[iconoclast]

May I ask why you prefer it over the original?

It's the combination of almost all of the changes they made to the game that makes it so good. I'm not even sure where to begin, but I'll give it a shot...

Firstly, and most importantly, they completely evolved the combat. It's much faster, it has more depth, and it has way more variety than NG1. Obliteration Techniques and the extremely powerful weapons are a result of the changes they made to the enemies and the general design. Pretty much every battle puts you up against way more enemies than you would ever face in NG1, so to balance that, they gave Ryu more tools and stronger, more versatile weapons. Now, the other big change was the delimbing system. Enemies can lose an arm or a leg, and when that happens, it changes their behavior and moveset. Some enemies become even more dangerous: ninjas will start trying to suicide bomb you, werewolves will start throwing severed limbs at you, etc. So when you're constantly facing large groups of extremely aggresive enemies, the OT becomes an important mechanic because it provides a brief moment of invincibility while disposing of a potential threat. It's not just a fancy, cinematic way to kill an enemy, it's a necessity for survival.

As for the weapons, yeah, the Scythe is extremely powerful, but so is the Lunar, Dragon Sword, Tonfas, and the BotA (the Tonfas are all-around the best weapon in the game). The Kusari-gama and Falcon Talons are pretty strong as well, but they have a couple more shortcomings than the top-tier weapons. The Flails kinda suck, but they can still be fun to use. Point is, pretty much every weapon can handle anything in the game, which is what makes the combat so good.

I also do not like adventure elements in action games. I don't want to do puzzles, search for trinkets, get keys, backtrack, look at maps, or do anything like that. NG2 consists of nothing but focused action from start to finish, which is exactly what I want from these games.

And finally, the DLC survival missions are what really makes NG2 one of my favorite games of all time. They're set up like an arcade game: you choose your weapon, and you go through wave after wave of enemies until you reach the final battle against Fiend Genshin. Defeating him gives you your one and only healing item, and then you start the next "loop" straight away. They even managed to fix the scoring system by simply adding green essence, which gives you a multiplier for 30 seconds or so. The downside to this is that it's a little random, but you'll be able to figure out which waves to score on and which waves to recharge on once you understand how everything works, so the best players still wind up with the highest scores. So basically, they boiled NG down to what I love most about it: awesome combat, great enemy variety, and infinite challenge.

[sjewkestheloon]

I need to get back to Godhand at some point, but man.... That difficulty. I am sure I could get somewhere with practise but the last thing I remember was two camp wrestlers trying to attack me with their asses and then a fat guy who repeatedly smashed my face in. Reading that sentence back actually makes me question why I didn't stick with it though.

As for NG2, I really didn't get down with it too much and I am hoping to get on with Sigma 2 as a sort of entry point which will then lead me back to NG2. I found most of the bosses anything but 'mash-happy' and I found the need to constantly move without pause disruptive to any sort of combo play. I understand that NG ecouraged too much turtling but giving every enemy unblockable throws that they throw out with no warning three times in a row just got on my nerves. Sigma 1 has introduced more of the throw happy stuff but it is nowhere near as prequent and seems to function as a punish rather than a skull fucking exercise.

As for Bayonetta, sure the cutscenes are annoying and it would be better if you could turn them off but if you hold RT and press Back you can skip them immediately. Also the QTEs are annoying the first time through but are easy enough that they become a non-issue very quickly. The real joy is experimenting with the combo system and switching between two weapon sets. Everything has a purpose, even if that purpose is to challenge yourself or to allow yourself more room for combo growth with lower damage output. The accessories are the icing on the cake, and I have done whole runthroughs just to test out a different accessory.

[Zaarock]

Damn, iconoclasts posts are making me want to start ng2 again, dangerous

The Red Star for PS2 is worth mentioning though I'd imagine most of you already know about it. Third person beatemup combined with a shmup basically. Top down perspective though, I guess it doesn't fit the thread description?. The arena mode is great fun too, feels like an arena shooter with an added deep melee system and abilities. two player can be great fun too

[BPzeBanshee]

Hitman: Blood Money. Love that game. The older ones annoy the crap out of me though because they feel very unpolished.

Still can't figure out what the stupid room with all the guns is for though, especially when the first contract kill is a tutorial in itself - it's not like you actually need target practice and it pops up after a few different contracts.

[CMoon]

Yeah, I actually have real problems with the pacing of Bayontta. This is clearly Platinum's best game, but instead of a brawler that slowly layers new enemy combinations/configurations in an ever growing difficulty, almost every scene in Bayonetta feels like a disconnected challenge with some new gimmick that doesn't actually involve what you learned in the last part of the game. Admittedly, there are some brilliant mechanics in there, but gutted by enormously stupid things like turret levels and the space harrier tribute. One of the best boss fights in the game requires that the brain-dead space harrier level be played first! It's such a hideous design choice that one really wonders what the hell was going on in the mind of the developers.

Would Capcom really care if Platinum did God Hand 2, changed the name, made the main character named something other than Gene?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Bayonetta sports the sort of bad character designs that usually indicates gash game design. So does God of War, but GoW flows nicely enough.
The Capcom that last gen brought DMC, Onimusha (FOUR games for the PS2 alone), God Hand and Shadow of Rome to the table seems to be no more. Don't you be telling me about Platinum Games being Clover, just renamed, because no Clover game had Bayonetta-hideous designs. I'll say it again - such designs pretty much ALWAYS mean trouble. The last Capcom game this uglified was Maximo vs. Army of Zin... nine years ago. Even Street Fighter IV looks better, which is saying a lot.

[evil_ash_xero]

The ragging on Bayonetta, in this thread, is intriguing. Considering it's a great game. And is better than ANY DMC game. I like the Space Harrier part. It's nutty.

Vanquish also kicks ass, but is too short.

Ninja Gaiden(black) is better than 2, but for some reason 2 is more fun. I think it's difficulty is just lowered enough to have fun with it, and get a bit carefree. I have friends who couldn't get anywhere in NG, but really like NG 2.

3 sucked so hard, a black hole appeared where the game was.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The ragging on Bayonetta, in this thread, is intriguing. Considering it's a great game. And is better than ANY DMC game.

Ninja Gaiden(black) is better than 2, but for some reason 2 is more fun. I think it's difficulty is just lowered enough to have fun with it, and get a bit carefree.

Let me guess: Bayonetta is easier than DMC, isn't it?

[Siren2011]

Currently playing Ninja Gaiden Black and am disappointed with the following things:

-The Hard difficulty setting is not there from the beginning, which is inexcusable due to the original having that option (at least I'm pretty sure), while Black is supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT over the original. I even have a save of a cleared Hard Mode game from Ninja Gaiden, which I am told by random people on the internet unlocks hard in Black so long as the save from the original is still on your HD. Though I have yet to get this to work.

-Special technique -what the fuck? Instead of requiring spirit orbs to use it, you can now just hold Y down and you reach both attack power levels without orbs, which kinda makes the orbs only good for store credit, now, if not an annoyance because now you have to avoid vacuuming them up and wasting them on an attack you could have done without. Not a big deal, but it's still a little bit annoying.

Other than that, we're golden. Airship level for the fucking win.

[Ghegs]

Vanquish also kicks ass, but is too short.

I would say combined with how good the game is, Vanquish is of the perfect length. I think it's better for a game to feel too short so the player wants to play it again, rather than to feel too long so it starts feeling like a chore. Vanquish was like a delicious pizza that fills you but doesn't leave you feeling like your stomach is going to explode.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I need to get back to Godhand at some point, but man.... That difficulty. I am sure I could get somewhere with practise but the last thing I remember was two camp wrestlers trying to attack me with their asses and then a fat guy who repeatedly smashed my face in.

Gold and Silver are very tough considering where you meet them. They basically teach you that you can't sit there and wait for enemies to approach, but rather need to run around the room and wait for chances when they separate themselves to pick them off. That or save some roulette.

Elvis is also very tough if you don't know what to expect. His stomp attack in particular is nasty because it's heavily influenced by rank; at level DIE it comes out with almost no startup so you need to be prepared to backflip immediately.

[evil_ash_xero]

The ragging on Bayonetta, in this thread, is intriguing. Considering it's a great game. And is better than ANY DMC game.

Ninja Gaiden(black) is better than 2, but for some reason 2 is more fun. I think it's difficulty is just lowered enough to have fun with it, and get a bit carefree.

Let me guess: Bayonetta is easier than DMC, isn't it?

Bayonetta being easier or harder than any DMC didn't go into what I thought of it. I like hard games.

[shmuppyLove]

Damn, iconoclasts posts are making me want to start ng2 again, dangerous

The Red Star for PS2 is worth mentioning though I'd imagine most of you already know about it. Third person beatemup combined with a shmup basically. Top down perspective though, I guess it doesn't fit the thread description?. The arena mode is great fun too, feels like an arena shooter with an added deep melee system and abilities. two player can be great fun too

Wow I had never heard of this before, but looks like some pretty wicked fun.

I just nabbed one CIB on eBay for $10 shipped

[Op Intensify]

The ragging on Bayonetta, in this thread, is intriguing. Considering it's a great game. And is better than ANY DMC game. I like the Space Harrier part. It's nutty.

Bayonetta is not a great game, as we have already discussed here. Try to focus on only the mechanics, overlooking the hype, crazy cutscenes, and Sega fanservice to see it for what it is. It just can't compare to the fine-tuned, QTE-less masterpieces of DMC3 and NGB.

Iconoclast, you have adequately defended your opinions about NG2, but I would like to know what you think about the bosses being way too easy.

Three of the four demon lords I could beat purely with spamming, and their lifebars went down in a flash. Even the final boss is a pushover. There isn't a single boss fight in NGB where that shit will work. Murai and Doku will block everything you throw at them until you learn to counter. Not to mention that Evil Ryu is one of the toughest fights in any 3D action game ever.

Also, I never got suicide-bombed by a dismembered ninja. Ever. OTs should have been harder to do than just pressing a button to instantly trigger an animation.

-Special technique -what the fuck? Instead of requiring spirit orbs to use it, you can now just hold Y down and you reach both attack power levels without orbs, which kinda makes the orbs only good for store credit, now, if not an annoyance because now you have to avoid vacuuming them up and wasting them on an attack you could have done without. Not a big deal, but it's still a little bit annoying.

It's still worth it in many situations, because charging your UTs with orbs is much, much faster than waiting.

(One major mechanical boo-boo in NGB I will acknowledge: there's a certain Level 4 Dragon Sword combo that the final boss will always fail to completely block.)

[evil_ash_xero]

Bayonetta is not a great game, as we have already discussed here. Try to focus on only the mechanics, overlooking the hype, crazy cutscenes, and Sega fanservice to see it for what it is. It just can't compare to the fine-tuned, QTE-less masterpieces of DMC3 and NGB.

Well, I guess that's ape law now.

Seriously though, I didn't say it was better than NGB. I just said it was better than any DMC. That's my opinion. And it's the opinion of a lot of others too.