TGS news: Gradius for PS3

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:21 pm

Haha, I often wonder if shooters truly are my favourite type of game. I've been getting excited about the Revolution controller and MGS4 all day, but that pales in comparison to the elation I'm feeling over this news.

GRADIUS is coming...

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:27 pm

I'll wait and see if Treasure or some other noteworthy third party is developing it. They dramatically raised my expectations for the series, and I have no desire to play yet another Gradius 3 rehash.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:43 pm

Accutron wrote:I'll wait and see if Treasure or some other noteworthy third party is developing it. They dramatically raised my expectations for the series, and I have no desire to play yet another Gradius 3 rehash.

Another one fooled by Konami' smart move to not release Gaiden in the west?

Edit: sorry, didn't want to sound harsh. But seriously, it is not like Gradius was crap before the advent of holy treasure.

MSZ · Post by **MSZ** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:57 pm

Gradius V and Gran Turosmo 4 made me brought the PS2 home, it will be all over again next year or 07.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:22 pm

Turrican wrote:it is not like Gradius was crap before the advent of holy treasure.

Not crap, just old, tired and recycled.

The word 'Gaiden' in the title 'Gradius Gaiden' carries a significance.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:47 pm

This better be Salamander 3!

1986-1996-2006...?

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:48 pm

Accutron wrote:I'll wait and see if Treasure or some other noteworthy third party is developing it. They dramatically raised my expectations for the series, and I have no desire to play yet another Gradius 3 rehash.

The Arcade team is working on a Type-X game so I don't know if Treasure will be on this one.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:54 pm

I don't really care about the team, I care about if the game has anything meaningful to accomplish. If it's just going to regurgitate nostalgia and bring back structual/pacing problems, then I might not be too interested.

If they've got some idea to work with- as Treasure did with the option types in GV- then we might have something. Still, it's hard for me to see where the series could go. Gaiden seems to sum up everything people love about "traditional" Gradius, and GV was an extremely solid re-envisioning. What's left?

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:08 pm

WarpZone wrote:I don't really care about the team, I care about if the game has anything meaningful to accomplish. If it's just going to regurgitate nostalgia and bring back structual/pacing problems, then I might not be too interested.

If they've got some idea to work with- as Treasure did with the option types in GV- then we might have something. Still, it's hard for me to see where the series could go. Gaiden seems to sum up everything people love about "traditional" Gradius, and GV was an extremely solid re-envisioning. What's left?

Exactly. It doesn't have to be Treasure...Konami can develop it in-house, farm it out to somebody else, whatever, as long as they do something fresh with it. Treasure just seems like an obvious candidate, because GV did more for the series than all of the other sequels put together, IMO.

Coming back to what Turrican said, I would like to add that it's entirely possible to think GV is the best and most singularly innovative in the series, even having played Gaiden. One does not have to be 'fooled'.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:09 pm

That's a very fair point, WarpZone. Hell, even Gradius V "wusses out" slightly with yet another High Speed/Mechanical level and a traditionally piss-easy final boss. It's obvious that nostalgia is a big hook with franchises like this, and even when trying to objectively criticize the franchise I can't honestly say that nostalgic nods are something that I'd like to see disappear. Like putty in their hands, we are!

Apart from that, though, who's to say at this early stage that this game won't be a similarly re-invigorating effort? I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, but at the same time I feel there is at least room for another game in the vein of Gradius V, even if it doesn't offer anything particularly new. Since I'm not making a serious argument I'm not afraid to weaken it by conceding that I would be happy with another game that employs the same option modes found in Gradius V. That formula can't have outstayed its welcome yet...

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:51 pm

Accutron wrote:Not crap, just old, tired and recycled.

The word 'Gaiden' in the title 'Gradius Gaiden' carries a significance.

It's true, Gradius is a conservative series. However, I think it's strange that it became "old tired and recycled" during three episodes. Each title added something after all.

Also, Gaiden means side story, but I don't think that Gaiden is so good because it innovates a stale formula... I guess in its case it's more a matter of finetuning and balance than real innovation. The most radical thing is the customizable weapon bar, and for the most part the game feels a refined and polished but nonetheless classic Gradius.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be Treasure...Konami can develop it in-house, farm it out to somebody else, whatever, as long as they do something fresh with it. Treasure just seems like an obvious candidate, because GV did more for the series than all of the other sequels put together, IMO.

Instant respawning? Two-sim player? Option control? What is exactly in GV that makes it so fresh and more important than the obvious birth and staple of the series, and their already highly customizable sequels (G3 edit mode, for one)? I'd like to have a better grasp of your pow.

Coming back to what Turrican said, I would like to add that it's entirely possible to think GV is the best and most singularly innovative in the series, even having played Gaiden. One does not have to be 'fooled'.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm sure many would agree with you. Still, I'd like to point out that even Treasure was very, very conservative when approaching Gradius. It's entirely possible that you think it's the best in the series, but then again, it's not that innovative, to the extent that if you love it you basically are still loving a 90% of what Gradius is in all its incarnations. I'm ready to debate this however.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:03 am

WarpZone wrote:I don't really care about the team, I care about if the game has anything meaningful to accomplish. If it's just going to regurgitate nostalgia and bring back structual/pacing problems, then I might not be too interested.

About the "structural/pacing problems": if today the shooter fan is really into manics, wants shorts stages in order to 1cc and train better, and such, this doesn't necessarily have to influence how Gradius is conceived/done.
That's why I replied to Bulletmagnet above. We may be annoyed by these mechanics, well no prob, it's full of other shmups out there. But as it's nice to think that you can always back to chess for a play, and they did not change in centuries, I'd like to think something on that line for Gradius too.

If they've got some idea to work with- as Treasure did with the option types in GV- then we might have something. Still, it's hard for me to see where the series could go. Gaiden seems to sum up everything people love about "traditional" Gradius, and GV was an extremely solid re-envisioning. What's left?

Pardon me for being so close-minded, but once in a while wouldn't you consider enjoy something called "more of the same?" Sigh, I miss those beautiful days when not every single shmup released had to be an Ikaruga or a Radiant. Doing a fine shmup follwing a traditional formula is such a meaningless thing to accomplish?

BTW, I second Kiken: S A L A M A N D E R I I I

pretty please. ^_^

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:04 am

Turrican wrote: Instant respawning? Two-sim player? Option control? What is exactly in GV that makes it so fresh and more important than the obvious birth and staple of the series, and their already highly customizable sequels (G3 edit mode, for one)? I'd like to have a better grasp of your pow.

None of what you listed was innovative in terms of Gradius 5, though. Instant respawning, two-player simultaneous and option control had all been done before in the series. True, G5 took all of these elements and combined them well, but very little was "original". But then again, I've always maintained that that's what Treasure excel at: combining old ideas to form "new" ones.

Glad to see someone else wants Salamander 3.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:06 am

Kiken wrote:None of what you listed was innovative in terms of Gradius 5. Instant respawning, two-player simultaneous and option control had all been done before in the series. True, G5 took all of these elements and combined them well, but very little was "original". But then again, I've always maintained that that's what Treasure are excel at: combining old ideas to form "new" ones.

I perfectly know it Kiken (well, Type 2 is A GV innovation though). I wanted to hear Accutron on the matter. You'll agree with me that Gradius V is closer to the definition of "remix" than the one of "revolution".

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:21 am

Here's the article (read it well):

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143847

And here's the smile on my face if it is evidence that we are indeed talking about S A L A M A N D E R I I I

Fingers crossed

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:07 am

Kiken wrote:None of what you listed was innovative in terms of Gradius 5, though. Instant respawning, two-player simultaneous and option control had all been done before in the series. True, G5 took all of these elements and combined them well, but very little was "original". But then again, I've always maintained that that's what Treasure excel at: combining old ideas to form "new" ones.

That pretty much sums it up.

What I feel is innovative about GV is the overall tightness of the whole game...more focused design, better balance, better art and music direction. Note that previously I said that I felt GV was more innovative than any of the sequels...not more innovative than the original game itself. Treasure just combined everything that was good about the whole series, made it a lot prettier, and stirred it all together into a single game, as opposed to sprinkling various improvements around in a host of sequels and parallel series but never quite getting it all together in a unified experience. I don't know if you would consider that true innovation in GV, but none of the other games managed to do it.

As far as weapon edit, while it's a major feature of the series' evolution, I think it was a wrong direction and I appreciate the fact that it is more marginalized in GV. I prefer a fixed weapon set, as it allows for a tighter level design (R-Type Final would be the antithesis of this mindset, which is why I see it as a failed design).

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:10 am

Accutron wrote:What I feel is innovative about GV is the overall tightness of the whole game...more focused design, better balance, better art and music direction.[...]

I don't know if you would consider that true innovation in GV, but none of the other games managed to do it.

Tightness is not innovation. and it's not even a fact, like a change into mechanics or such. And pretty much everything else is debatable: design, balance, art and music. I think this slides into the realm of the "subtle changes, personal tastes", right? And for that GV should be credited to "did more for the series than all of the other sequels put together"?

Note that previously I said that I felt GV was more innovative than any of the sequels...not more innovative than the original game itself.

You're right, excuse me for suggesting otherwise.

Treasure just combined everything that was good about the whole series, made it a lot prettier, and stirred it all together into a single game, as opposed to sprinkling various improvements around in a host of sequels and parallel series but never quite getting it all together in a unified experience.

First, this way of reasoning is anachronistic. It's not like Konami could foresee future or deliberately sprikled the good bits among episodes. It's quite the opposite, each of these changes was important at times, and now developers can "simply" choose what they like or not among them.

Second, you say "I don't know if you would consider that true innovation in GV, but none of the other games managed to do it.", but I think you're wrong. Salamander, Gradius II Gofer no Yabou and Gaiden (to name the best of the bunch) are already perfect arrangements of the "classical piece" known as Gradius, and in all honesty I don't see where they lack to say otherwise.

In your words, the previous installments that you defined "old, tired and recycled" do innovate only in small bits, without ever achieving an "unified experience". It's quite a vague speech, that ultimately feels falsed by perspective. I'd want to hear a 1986 review of Salamander or a 1988 review of GII that says bored "well, it's pretty much the same stuff, and they didn't even add much".

On the other hand, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, Treasure didn't achieve perfection in Gradius V. Most of the game has a metallic cold look that is signature of the developers (or close to Ikaruga's visuals if you want), thus losing a bit of the Gradius identity. The stages that try to pay homage (like the salamander stage) don't mix well with the rest, compromising the aesthetic coherence of the game.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the result is bad. I'm not whining that there's no Moai, either. Visually Treasure took quite an original take on Gradius (commendable), therefore invalidating what you're saying, that they made it "prettier". If you want a prettier Gradius that retains the original's atmosphere, you have better options than V, it's clear.

Accutron wrote:As far as weapon edit, while it's a major feature of the series' evolution, I think it was a wrong direction and I appreciate the fact that it is more marginalized in GV. I prefer a fixed weapon set, as it allows for a tighter level design (R-Type Final would be the antithesis of this mindset, which is why I see it as a failed design).

Eh, I never was a fan of Edit mode too. ^_^ Still, to have it "marginalized" to four initial types is nothing GV can claim of. It's more like GIII' edit mode being a wrong turn on the already close-to-perfection GII.

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:11 am

Heh heh, i've been playing Salamander II off and on all this week so it's definetly a nice coincidence that this news popped up now.

I sure hope they keep with the trend of releasing one every decade on the decade. That would be so sweet.

Salamander III NOW!!!

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:11 am

Kiken wrote:1986-1996-2006...?

Sharp observation! Considering it that way, and how Konami is generally proud of their own history, it does seem rather likely that this could be Salamander 3!

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:36 am

I'm not going to address every point you made, but what it seems to come down to is that my opinion is just an opinion, and I completely agree. The facts are not in dispute, just our personal interpretations.

As far as the asthetics of GV, I prefer the coldness. Level 4 was a disappointment in that respect...while it's a neat level, the art belongs in a different game, as does the music.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:41 am

Accutron wrote:I'm not going to address every point you made, but what it seems to come down to is that my opinion is just an opinion, and I completely agree. The facts are not in dispute, just our personal interpretations.

As far as the asthetics of GV, I prefer the coldness. Level 4 was a disappointment in that respect...while it's a neat level, the art belongs in a different game, as does the music.

Well put. I hope we can say we are all happy to receive a new Gradius, really ^__^ let's hope it will be as good as the last one!

P.S. Accutron, I just remembered I had a similar discussion on this thread, fyi, about GV.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:11 am

Turrican wrote:I hope we can say we are all happy to receive a new Gradius, really ^__^ let's hope it will be as good as the last one!

No argument there. I do wish Konami would revisit some of their more abandoned titles though. A new Salamander would be a start.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:20 am

Accutron wrote:
Turrican wrote:I hope we can say we are all happy to receive a new Gradius, really ^__^ let's hope it will be as good as the last one!
No argument there. I do wish Konami would revisit some of their more abandoned titles though. A new Salamander would be a start.

Yeah. I'm excited that there is a new Gradius coming, but I would also like to see a new Salamander, a new Thunder Cross (or at least a home port of the old one), a new Space Manbow, a new Twinbee, a new Parodius, or an all new shmup franchise from Konami.

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:23 am

sooo...how would you all react if they ended up making it into a new solar assault game?

Gozer · Post by **Gozer** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:12 am

This is excellent news. I may have to buy a PS3 if it turns out decent. Don't hold back on the Moai heads Konami.

tviks · Post by **tviks** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:43 am

So what is it that many people want a new Salamander instead of Gradius? Gradius V already had most of the elements from Salamander that made people like it (instant respawn, 2-player simultanous play, salamander bosses with their music).

If you count those out, what is left will be:

- much shorter stages with no intermezzo portions
- possibly the dull weapons system where you just pick up everything
- vertical stages which I personally don't like. There are more than enough vertical shmups out there

I don't mean to say that I don't like Salamander. But I still pray that the new game is pure Gradius.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:46 am

Salamander 3! Good thinking, Kiken. The organic stage in Gradius V, while very pretty, needed to be more suggestive of the malign, I thought. As a child playing Life Force (and Salamander whenever I found a decent arcade), the environments that were biological didn't strike me as anything as simple as 'gross' or 'sick', they had a real suggestive kind of horror about them, something that even Salamander II seemed to discard in favour of homage and self-parody. Some will argue that shooters like these already take themselves too seriously, but if another Salamander game is made, I really hope they try to capture the nearly morbid aesthetics of the original, at least for a couple of levels.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:57 pm

japtor wrote:sooo...how would you all react if they ended up making it into a new solar assault game?

That would be okay, as long as they put SA and SAR on the disc.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:36 pm

Turrican wrote:Pardon me for being so close-minded, but once in a while wouldn't you consider enjoy something called "more of the same?" Sigh, I miss those beautiful days when not every single shmup released had to be an Ikaruga or a Radiant. Doing a fine shmup follwing a traditional formula is such a meaningless thing to accomplish?

To me, I think it might be. And if nothing else, it's because I believe Konami is capable of so much more. I don't see a strong case for making another Gradius very similar to the "traditional" installments, when we already can play those whenever we want. The only real reason I could think of for doing this is, as you say, "preserving" the franchise for the future. So that in any gaming generation, people know they can go play Gradius. However, this is a very...sentimental approach, and has little to do with the conceptual end of development, which I'm far more interested in. We've already got compilation packs and emulation, after all.

tviks wrote:So what is it that many people want a new Salamander instead of Gradius? Gradius V already had most of the elements from Salamander that made people like it (instant respawn, 2-player simultanous play, salamander bosses with their music).

Yeah. There's a number of level design similarities to, and it seems Treasure "studied" that series just as much as Gradius. Most of the omissions were actually more cosmetic (vertical stages weren't fundamentally different from horizontal) or limiting, as you said with the powerups.

I think what people might like to see from Salamander, though, is the return of the motif and atmosphere. You're penetrating this giant creature and delving into the unknown, and there's this almost biblical or horror feel to it (as Bal-Sagoth said, thanks). At least, that's how it should be, but a lot of Salamander 1 and 2 actually felt incoherent to me. I think if they really emphasized the organic aspect, and used it to think up new level design possibilities (combined with GV's sense of tightness and focus)...then we might have something.

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:40 am

Most Gradius games have an auto power-up feature for those who didn't care about the strategy aspect of collecting options and such. This gave for a more Salamander expierience already. They could just easily pull a vice versa on Salamander III and give you the choice of manual power ups.

I want to see another Salamander because it would show me that Konami hasn't forgotten it's roots and can keep up with tradition. It would show me that they still carry an extreme respect for the good ole' days. Also, Salamander II is one of my favorite arcades of all time.

It would be nice to see an organic version of Gradius where the graphics are at least on par with Gradius V's.

and 4 - Gradius fans are gonna like it any way they can get it as long as it doesn't stray too far from the Gradius idea. Salamander is an important series with a harder edge than just regular Gradius and it shouldn't be forgotten. Take that from a life-long Gradius fan, that's what i want.