Comparing TV's and arcade monitors

[rCadeGaming]

I'm planning to use 15kHz TV's in two cabinets I'm building (a horizontal and a vertical). I'm very pleased with the way 15kHz looks on the TV's I have, and a lot of what I'll be playing will be 15kHz. However, some games will be 24-31kHz (including console games), and I'm wondering if I should spend the money to upgrade to a tri-sync monitor, or get a custom chassis that will enable this for the TV's.

Basically, 15kHz is still the first priority, so if I can maintain the quality of 15kHz video I have, and add 24 and 31kHz, I want to; but if 15kHz would suffer, I'll just stick with 15kHz and live with interlaced video for higher resolutions. I was wondering if anyone would be interested in comparing with the 15kHz picture they're getting with their multi-syncs, and talking about options for multi-syncs.

More specifically, this is my current setup:

MAME on PC using Windows XP 64, Soft15kHz, and Powerstrip -> VGA out from nVidia GeForce 7300GS graphics card -> TC1600 VGA to Component Transcoder -> Component input on 27" Sony Trinitron KV27-FS120 15kHz CRT TV

I'll also be using console games, everything from NES to PS3, using component or RGB SCART transcoded to compoent.

Here's some pictures of some MAME games in their native resolutions (all are 15kHz progressive), using this setup:













Right click the pics and open in new tab/window to see full size.

The colors are a little washed out in the pictures, especially in the Mario ones. They look about perfect in person. What I wanted to show most is the scanline width and dot pitch, which I really like on these TV's. How would these things compare when using a tri-sync to display 15kHz?

Wei-Ya and Makvision are the only tri-syncs still being produced now right? In any case, I want to get something that will be easy to find two matching ones (for the two cabinets), easy to find parts for, and easy to replace when they burn out someday.

If possible, I think a conversion chassis to use the tubes from these TV's would be great. Would that allow to me keep the same look in 15kHz while adding 24 and 31? Using these TV tubes allows me to stockpile spares, practically free. I've heard of people selling built to order custom chassis's to convert TV tubes for arcade monitor use, but I never get any concrete references. Can anyone tell me where to look? Is this a good idea?

[Fudoh]

The Tri-Sync monitors I've seen have MUCH stronger scanlines on 15hz material. Really annoying, especially if you're sitting close by.

[fagin]

Personally for me the tri-sync "issue" with 15khz is not a deal breaker.... in fact it's no problem at all. It depends on how "anal" you want to get about the scanlines..... I'm more interested in dodging aliens than worrying about scanline width. If the scanlines grip your shit that much.... turn up the contrast!

If you want an all in one solution for a mutitude of signal types and by that I mean you want 480p as well as the other outputs, this is a neat solution to cover all your needs (as in a tri-sync).

You're building a cabinet so you have little to no choice, assuming you want the versatility and an all in one solution.

I have CRT's coming out of my ears now. TV CRT's, Monitor CRT's and Arcade Cabinet set-ups using tri-sync chassis. I also have a whole collection of scalers, linedoublers, scan convertors and other shizzle. CRT's have their place and certainly their uses and all different types of CRT's have their own uses and benefits. However, most of my collection is down to pure indulgence and knowledge gathering.... these set-ups are not practical for most.

Chassis swapping will be limited depending on your tube and knowledge around what works on what is fairly limited outside of the Arcade Cabinet CRT arena.

Personally I wouldn't worry about a tube dying.... if you buy one now that has a good sharp picture, with decent geometry and little to no burn in, for home use the tube should last another 20+yrs imo. It's the chassis that are the weak point. Currently in the UK this is not a massive issue, a lot of chassis (brand new) are still available and we also have various specialists who will also repair the chassis. But that's in the UK.

All in my opinion.

[Fudoh]

I'm more interested in dodging aliens than worrying about scanline width.

you're right of course, but when playing on a cab (= sitting about 50-60cm from a 29" CRT) I find the strong tri-sync scanlines really heavy on the eyes and I think it hurts the art as well.

[Fudoh]

You're building a cabinet so you have little to no choice, assuming you want the versatility and an all in one solution.

I would chose a 15/24khz monitor and convert 31khz to 24khz. Looks really much more pleasing!

[rCadeGaming]

The Tri-Sync monitors I've seen have MUCH stronger scanlines on 15hz material. Really annoying, especially if you're sitting close by.

That sounds like it could more annoying than the interlace problems in 480i. Do you have any pics of this?

Like I said, 15kHz progressive is my primary concern. I'll add 24/31 only if it doesn't seriously degrade 15. What do you guys think the pics I posted, is it as good as I think, or have I just not seen better in person?

Chassis swapping will be limited depending on your tube and knowledge around what works on what is fairly limited outside of the Arcade Cabinet CRT arena.

I've heard the Trinitrons are particularly different as well. However, I thought I had heard of people who make custom chassis's built to order for whatever tube you want. Now I'm having trouble finding these services.

I found this, but it's only a 15kHz chassis, so not much point:

http://www.8liners.com/datatech/monitor.html

Another one, described as "dual resolution," which I'm assuming is 15/24:

http://www.jomac.net.au/parts.htm

Both of these are "universal" chassis's, not custom built.

Personally I wouldn't worry about a tube dying.... if you buy one now that has a good sharp picture, with decent geometry and little to no burn in, for home use the tube should last another 20+yrs imo. It's the chassis that are the weak point. Currently in the UK this is not a massive issue, a lot of chassis (brand new) are still available and we also have various specialists who will also repair the chassis. But that's in the UK.

Hmm, a chassis can be repaired, but once a tube burns out it's done. Correct? Anyhow, 20 years isn't such a long time. This cabinet build is already 5 years in the works, and it could be another 1 or 2 until it's done. After all this, I want it to last forever. I'm in my twenties now, and I want my grandchildren to able to play with this, etc. With these TV's, I can stockpile a dozen for practically nothing.

-

What do you guys think of Wei-Ya/Makvision for this? These are the only new tri-sync's available, but how is the quality. I imagine I'd be getting the problems with 15kHz you're describing, Fudoh.

Where's the best place to get used tri-sync's? eBay, trading post?

Know of any custom chassis builders?

[fagin]

I'm more interested in dodging aliens than worrying about scanline width.

you're right of course, but when playing on a cab (= sitting about 50-60cm from a 29" CRT) I find the strong tri-sync scanlines really heavy on the eyes and I think it hurts the art as well.

I was waiting for your to rip me a new arse on that comment, as I'm as anal as the next worst person! You missed your chance on that one!

[fagin]

The Tri-Sync monitors I've seen have MUCH stronger scanlines on 15hz material. Really annoying, especially if you're sitting close by.

That sounds like it could more annoying than the interlace problems in 480i. Do you have any pics of this?

Like I said, 15kHz progressive is my primary concern. I'll add 24/31 only if it doesn't seriously degrade 15. What do you guys think the pics I posted, is it as good as I think, or have I just not seen better in person?

Chassis swapping will be limited depending on your tube and knowledge around what works on what is fairly limited outside of the Arcade Cabinet CRT arena.

I've heard the Trinitrons are particularly different as well. However, I thought I had heard of people who make custom chassis's built to order for whatever tube you want. Now I'm having trouble finding these services.

I found this, but it's only a 15kHz chassis, so not much point:

http://www.8liners.com/datatech/monitor.html

Another one, described as "dual resolution," which I'm assuming is 15/24:

http://www.jomac.net.au/parts.htm

Both of these are "universal" chassis's, not custom built.

Personally I wouldn't worry about a tube dying.... if you buy one now that has a good sharp picture, with decent geometry and little to no burn in, for home use the tube should last another 20+yrs imo. It's the chassis that are the weak point. Currently in the UK this is not a massive issue, a lot of chassis (brand new) are still available and we also have various specialists who will also repair the chassis. But that's in the UK.

Hmm, a chassis can be repaired, but once a tube burns out it's done. Correct? Anyhow, 20 years isn't such a long time. This cabinet build is already 5 years in the works, and it could be another 1 or 2 until it's done. After all this, I want it to last forever. I'm in my twenties now, and I want my grandchildren to able to play with this, etc. With these TV's, I can stockpile a dozen for practically nothing.

-

What do you guys think of Wei-Ya/Makvision for this? These are the only new tri-sync's available, but how is the quality. I imagine I'd be getting the problems with 15kHz you're describing, Fudoh.

Where's the best place to get used tri-sync's? eBay, trading post?

Know of any custom chassis builders?

I'll try and do some comparison shots between a 15khz only and 15khz tri-sync..... with the chassis / tubes I have I think it's a mute point! Not all tubes and chassis are the same though. Personally for me this issue is being over egged.... certainly with the CRT set-ups I have. Perhaps it's a real issue with others. Like I said.... I'll take some shots.

Your images look "OK" to me, but the quality isn't that great so hard to tell. A CRT is as much about the colour set-up and geometry.... your pictures obviously don't show this.

I'm not aware it's possible to have a universal chassis that will fit any CRT!?!?!?

Yes... once a tube is gone it's gone, but assuming your tube is good, it should last for a hell of a long time as a home gaming screen. It just won't practically get the hours of use in normal circumstances. I have some set's here that are 15+yrs old and the tube quality is 100%.

You pay for what you get.... wei-ya are cheap china tubes, but then I have two Sanwa (which use the cheap china tubes) CRT's and they are fine for what I need. I also bought a brand new LG CRT a couple of years back so I had at least one spare tube. The best tubes were in the pre naomi stuff in reality.

[fagin]

I'm finding it difficult to get a decent picture on my Sony Trinitron CRT with the same console, so here is the MegaDrive hooked up to a Rodotron Tri-Sync Chassis @ 15khz on a 29" Sanwa Arcade tube:



Looks bang on to me and you'll have to take my word for it that there is (I can't see) any difference in scanlines between this and the Sony..... well there is, the Sony is a tad sharper which makes them ever so slightly more defined.

[Fudoh]

That Mickey Mouse shot looks perfectly alright. What I'm refering to is are the Egret3/Atomiswave cabs I've seen. They have scanlines at least triple the size of your Sanwa tube. I don't have a photo on hand, but they look just like a scanlined picture on a LCD with 100% scanlines

[fagin]

That Mickey Mouse shot looks perfectly alright. What I'm refering to is are the Egret3/Atomiswave cabs I've seen. They have scanlines at least triple the size of your Sanwa tube. I don't have a photo on hand, but they look just like a scanlined picture on a LCD with 100% scanlines

I'm wondering if that's a result of tri-syncing a tube that was designed for 15/24 and then going up to 31khz, rather than a tube designed for 31khz and then tri-syncing to include 15 & 24? If you get what I mean.

Sounds nasty though if that's the result on those kinds of set-ups.

[Overkill]

Anyone knows where to get a new chassis for my Hantarex Polo?

[rCadeGaming]

Fagin, those scanlines don't look overly strong at all. If anything, they're more subtle than mine. Was that Sanwa tube mated with a 15kHz chassis from stock, before you swapped it with the trisync?

[Fudoh]

updated info: the heavy scanlines I associate with tri-sync monitors are from the Samsung monitor + Wei Ya chassis combination built into most Egret3/Atomiswave SD cabinets. Obviously Toshiba monitors (on Naomi/Net City cabs) don't have the same problem.

[stuntman]

I'm glad this strong scanlines on tri-sync (@ 15kHz) issue is being discussed, because for a long while I thought it was just me. It's why I prefer to upscale/linedouble 15kHz sources (consoles) to 480p, and apply more subtle scanlines with the SLG3000 (or via XRGB3). This is with a LG Philips tube + Wei Ya chassis combo.

[matrigs]

what about scanlines in a naomi sanwa 29e31s tube with the rodo 666 chassis ? are they also so big ?

also - doesn't every tri-sync chassis suffer from side compression in either hi-res or low-res ? i would actually want to see some pictures of that.

[fagin]

Fagin, those scanlines don't look overly strong at all. If anything, they're more subtle than mine. Was that Sanwa tube mated with a 15kHz chassis from stock, before you swapped it with the trisync?

They are more subtle because the focus on that chassis is slightly soft. With another chassis I had it was sharper.

That Sanwa tube is in an EU Naomi so natively 31khz. It was converted to tri-sync with a Rodotron chassis.

[fagin]

I'm glad this strong scanlines on tri-sync (@ 15kHz) issue is being discussed, because for a long while I thought it was just me. It's why I prefer to upscale/linedouble 15kHz sources (consoles) to 480p, and apply more subtle scanlines with the SLG3000 (or via XRGB3). This is with a LG Philips tube + Wei Ya chassis combo.

My other Naomi houses a LG tri-sync (using a Rodotron chassis). That has no scanline issue either in 15khz.

[fagin]

what about scanlines in a naomi sanwa 29e31s tube with the rodo 666 chassis ? are they also so big ?

also - doesn't every tri-sync chassis suffer from side compression in either hi-res or low-res ? i would actually want to see some pictures of that.

The picture of Mickey Mouse is using the combination you mention..... so no, the scanline thickness is not an issue on that set-up.

With regards to side compression..... to varying degrees imo dependant on tube and chassis.

[rCadeGaming]

the heavy scanlines I associate with tri-sync monitors are from the Samsung monitor + Wei Ya chassis combination

Does the problem come from the chassis or the monitor? If I bought a new Wei-Ya monitor, would it have the same problem?

Here's a quote I found on forums.arcadecontrols.com about the 27" Makvision trisync's currently being sold by Happ:

its just a rebranded wei ya 3129/rodotron 666a
they are ok but you will get heavy scan lines on 15khz

Agree/disagree?

[matrigs]

what about scanlines in a naomi sanwa 29e31s tube with the rodo 666 chassis ? are they also so big ?

also - doesn't every tri-sync chassis suffer from side compression in either hi-res or low-res ? i would actually want to see some pictures of that.

The picture of Mickey Mouse is using the combination you mention..... so no, the scanline thickness is not an issue on that set-up.

With regards to side compression..... to varying degrees imo dependant on tube and chassis.

interesting - looks very fine to me.

regarding that side compression - i'm curious if more people tested this idea posted on the arcade-otaku forums some time ago:





although that's with a ms-9 tube, it should work also with a sanwa one.