Any shoot'em ups not based on scripts / memorization?

[Elaphe]

In most shooting games all the action on the part of your enemies is pre-established. Every enemy appears in an exact moment and place, the attacks and bullet patterns are the same, etc. Therefore, the more you play the better you perform, because you learn what is going to happen next and what to do. The only exception, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that some enemies change the direction of their attacks depending on the position of your ship. Now I wonder if there are any shmups which don't resort to this kind of scripts and, on the contrary, are based on real AI, with enemies that try to avoid your attacks or act differently depending on the moment, the place, your attitude or any other circumstance. I think this could be quite challenging and interesting to play, even though it would not be valid for scoring.

[blackoak]

Zanac and sequels are the most obvious I think. Were Compile's other games (MSX Aleste series etc) like this too?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Zanac Special Version (and Neo, but that has extra input lag on the PS2) makes me think of travelling through some organism that reacts to your performance.

Zanac and sequels are the most obvious I think. Were Compile's other games (MSX Aleste series etc) like this too?

The caravan mode in Seirei Senshi Spriggan, from what little I've played.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Aleste/Power Strike, certainly on the SMS, has enemy patterns based on the special weapons you have at any given point as well as a simple rank system (the longer you live, the more shit gets thrown at you). There are some ground turrets and fixed patterns plus if you always have the same weapon, you get a pretty similar game.

[trap15]

In most of Raizing's games, more enemies appear at harder rank.

[gabe]

Twinkle Star Srpites... Kinda.

It's a puzzle / shmup hybrid. It contains 37 enemy patterns that appear in a random order, and increase in speed as you progress through the game. Adding further variety is the fact that each character you face has two unique attacks. Memorizing the patterns and attacks helps, but you will never play the same game twice... This can be frustrating if you are trying to play for score or speed, but it sounds like that might be what you are looking for?

EDIT: I should also point out that in addition to the patterns and attacks mentioned above, the better your opponent performs, the more enemies appear on your screen, which adds quite a bit of randomness, even when playing the CPU.

[AntiFritz]

Warning Forever?

[FIL]

You could try a Psikyo game. Still has preset enemies but a lot more aimed shots than most modern shmups and boss bullet patterns that vary a lot based on rank.

[KAI]

Enemies with AI on a shmup? seems stupid.
RADIRGY, Karous, those games change every time you play them.

[wiNteR]

I just took an hour to write a post in detail and then accidentally closed the tab right before posting

Whatever, I am just gonna write a few points briefly from the last post.

The only exception, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that some enemies change the direction of their attacks depending on the position of your ship.

There are more examples than that. Some are rank, suicide bullets, popcorn rushes, unpredictable boss movements etc.

For popcorn rush, see stage 5 of DDP as an example. The point being that the enemy movements aren't predetermined but depend on player's position. There are other examples of non-predetermined enemy movements too. If we think about it if we want variation between different plays, among other things, three things that would count as variation would be enemy spawn points, movements, patterns.

And two qualities that I think should be in a game that wants to keep variability between different plays:
1) Preserving the stage structure or identity at some level
2) An idealized super-player (once he has 'enough' knowledge of stage layout) must be able to complete the game every time regardless of whatever variations occur in a given play and how it proceeds.

[ebarrett]

You could try a Psikyo game.

hahahahaha wat

anyway, to the op: if it is not memo based, it's probably not really a shmup, no matter how much it might look like one.

[trap15]

Or at least it wouldn't be a good one.

X-Plan is almost entirely random, yet it qualifies as a shmup.

[Ed Oscuro]

Zanac and sequels are the most obvious I think. Were Compile's other games (MSX Aleste series etc) like this too?

The caravan mode in Seirei Senshi Spriggan, from what little I've played.

It's just like any other game's caravan mode. It's based on memorization.

But it is a nice enough change of pace, because you can up the tempo (you have to in order to win big). Makes it very hard to get complacent, because you're always wondering if you can squeeze out a little bit more performance from your runs. All of mine end up sloppy.

There's lots of wiggle room even given the "scripts" spoken of. Change Air Blade and tons of doujins provide good examples of this.

[Drum]

It is so, so sad that there aren't more of these.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Played Super Mario Land again tonight and in the first shmup level there are fish formations acting in a way pretty unusual for a horizontal shmup. Entering from the right and trying to ram into your submarine frontally, then reaching the screen's left side, turning back and trying the same from your behind (not as the formation anymore, but separately from one another). Why it feels unique may very well be that you move slower than them, but it's an enemy's behaviour pattern that wouldn't surprise me coming from Baraduke rather than an auto-scroller.
As for Baraduke, I prefer the (excellent) PSX port (Namco Museum Volume 5) to MAME. The former felt more responsive last time I checked.
Speaking of aimed shots, pretty much every shot in Raiden III is aimed at your plane (except for some bosses' attack patterns, but they aim too), which is the series' trademark, but the game is totally memorisation-based.
While I'm mentioning shmup stages in non-shmup games, I guess the one in Viewtiful Joe is remarkable, if not really good. I don't feel like explaining "why" now, but it's unlike any other shmup known to me.

[daliscar]

Warning Forever?

Yes of course! And it's more sophisticated tribute Infinity Danger- the bosses shape, weaponry and armour evolve depending entirely on how you've played and you can cultivate certain aspects whilst suppressing others simply through your choice of targets or by deliberately succumbing to certain weapon types. An excellent and really intelligent game.
And then there's all those indie games with that procedurally generated levels stuff which AI based programmers cream themselves about but which makes for a very unsatisfactory experience if you're going for scoreplay (hence their lack of popularity on this forum).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Vulgus by Capcom (released as freeware for the PC some time ago).

[TheSoundofRed]

Aren't enemy spawns random in Xevious?

The 3DS rerelease with subtle 3D effects is pretty fun.

[RNGmaster]

I really like Parsec47 and Kenta Cho's other games, and I think the patterns are mostly random as well as enemy spawn location and order (although the pool of pattern types is relatively small so you will see attacks repeat after a few plays).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Played Solar Striker this morning (1989 - same year as Super Mario Land, Gunpei Yokoi involved too) and guess what, most enemies "dogfight" and snipe you, which gives them the sort of "personality" known to me from old Namco shooters (even as old as Bosconian). It's nothing fancier than Raiden, but things get pretty busy for an early Game Boy game.

[brokenhalo]

I guess geometry wars would fit your criteria. Enemy spawns are pretty random in both placement and type. Every game is different, but still allows an expert to play well every game.

[Jeneki]

Played Solar Striker this morning (1989 - same year as Super Mario Land, Gunpei Yokoi involved too) and guess what, most enemies "dogfight" and snipe you, which gives them the sort of "personality" known to me from old Namco shooters (even as old as Bosconian).

Hmm, speaking of enemies that dogfight, that reminds me of stage 3 in Air Buster. The jets move around unpredictably, use missiles when behind you, etc. It's not a super difficult section, but I find it interesting to play due to the unique mechanics there.

[Drum]

I think this could be quite challenging and interesting to play, even though it would not be valid for scoring.

Out of curiosity, what made you think this was remotely true? I mean, most of the classic score-based arcade games have some unpredictable elements, and they're stronger for it.
Valtric is a fun game that fits the criteria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JKSF8QzrB0
It may look like any number of early-mid 80s verts but it's pretty unique.
SWAT is great too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdG-WHPfHB8
Strange strategic shooter with behavioral enemies. Worth trying to figure out.

[professor ganson]

Aren't enemy spawns random in Xevious?

The 3DS rerelease with subtle 3D effects is pretty fun.

Not all random, but I do think there are random elements regularly. Have not played a 3DS version. Sounds interesting.

I haven't played Twin Hawk (Daisenpu) yet. Does it have a lot of targeted attacking? I think I heard it does. Sounds like a cool game from what I've heard.

[Moniker]

I wonder if anyone's ever attempted programming a 'shmup bot' that can maximize scoring. People do this for fun with roguelikes.. I think Angband, Nethack and some version of Crawl have bots. It should be possible with shmups, if you can get close enough to the code and map out levels according to programmed behaviors. Would be good for superplays.

[AntiFritz]

Would be easier to just tas it.

[Moniker]

Maybe. But for any given game there has to be one ultimate unbeatable high score that probably only a computer could find (depending on the game's complexity, of course). I guess you would lose a lot of the magic finding it out, though.

[wiNteR]

The generic and mechanical method is to find maximal (winning or orbit) configurations, which works in any case. But I am not sure how efficient a method based on these can be made to be. If the game is assumed to have some basic structure, then we can take further advantage of it.

It is notable though that just finding the max score is different from how to get it.

I guess you would lose a lot of the magic finding it out, though.

Why? The magic of the game is in the enjoyment of playing it. Would the fun of playing Ketsui become less if someone suddenly pointed out 600M as max score?

In any case, most of the movements (both in sense of variance between runs and skill) it wouldn't be humanly possible to emulate them. Incorporating human reaction time and physical constraints (or perhaps even other factors if we want to), the practically feasible score would be less.

And there wouldn't be one maximum score if 'true' spontaneity was put in somewhere (no matter how little).

edit: minor corrections and clarifications

[louisg]

Isn't Gates of Zendocon pretty randomized? That one is a nice-try-no-biscuit.

[CloudyMusic]

Isn't Gates of Zendocon pretty randomized? That one is a nice-try-no-biscuit.

Wow, that takes me back. It's not too often that people bring up Lynx exclusives. Not a bad game for the platform, in my recollection.