Blackmagic 240p Petition

[GregI]

I have been in contact with Blackmagic support and with sufficient demand and sales figures being there, Blackmagic will enable 240p support on its products. I made a petition to get the ball rolling.

The aim of this petition is to show Blackmagic Design that there is sufficient demand for retro console support (SNES, Genesis, N64) on its products. Too long have owners of these products had to make compromises in purchasing expensive scalers to record these consoles. The Intensity products are capable of displaying 240p: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/124/877793

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/retr ... lackmagic/

I would appreciate if you would sign it and pass it on to relevant friends who could benefit from this, thank you.

[Fudoh]

I have been talking to BMD about this years ago.

It won't help. Even if they enable 240p recognition, the real problem are the non-standard refresh rates of basically every NTSC 240p system out there. BMD cards already lose their sync on the source when systems (480i or 720p) deliver 59.93Hz instead of the NTSC-standard 59.94Hz.

They'll never be able to support all the requests for various systems and they's immediately shut down ANY 240p support once they see all the problems associated with it.

Sorry.

[GregI]

BMD cards already lose their sync on the source when systems (480i or 720p) deliver 59.93Hz instead of the NTSC-standard 59.94Hz.

I have never had this happen once on my Intensity Pro (Wii, 360 or PS3). Examples?

Probably unrelated but I do know that my Intensity Pro can keep video synch even on a messy VHS source that constantly drops out. Maybe drivers improved from when you spoke to them?

You may be right and 240p support is not feasible but we may as well try. I would feel far better knowing I tried than not trying at all. If cheap devices like an EzCAP and Dazzle can manage this, there is always hope.

[Fudoh]

I have never had this happen once on my Intensity Pro (Wii, 360 or PS3). Examples?

because those systems stick to the specs.

If you take a BMD which can handle 480p and you try to record linedoubled 240p from a linedoubler which won't chage the refresh, but retain the original timing, then you'll have this exact problem as well.

Probably unrelated but I do know that my Intensity Pro can keep video synch even on a messy VHS source that constantly drops out. Maybe drivers improved from when you spoke to them?

never had any problems with VHS and captured a few hundred. I can depend on the player. If the player keeps a stable sync output during a dropout if should be no problem.

[GregI]

From what you said I understand about using a scaler to output 480p would cause issues with non standard rates. Makes total sense. The card is expecting this specific rate from 480p and the console fluctuates causing the sync issue.

I am however still confused when you said "systems (480i or 720p)". If the consoles I mentioned are fine (we can eliminate 720p from the equation now) , the only ones that come to mind are the Gamecube, Xbox and PS2 which I know are captured properly. The only thing left is the Dreamcast and that seems fine to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJRd06amh-U

What other consoles that output 480i would have sync issues?

[Fudoh]

You can try to capture from a SNES or Genesis with games that have 480i output, it won't work.

But initially I was refering to upscaled output, e.g. 240p to 720p. Doesn't work without unlocking the refresh rate.

[GregI]

Ah, alright then. I'm guessing you would need to use say an X-RGB Mini to unlock the refresh rate to play nice?

[BuckoA51]

I'm not sure the Mini can do it yet, the DVDO Edge can.

[Fudoh]

The Mini is supposed to do it, but the function (unlock v-sync) is still buggy.

[GregI]

Is there any 240p composite and s-video cards that are recommended? My Aver is ok but looking elsewhere to.

[Fudoh]

The Holograph by Immersive has by far the best comb filter for composite sources. It's a great capture card for 240p sources. 2nd hand prices are $100-150, but not easy to find.

[GregI]

I was thinking about something last night.

The Wii follows the spec of 59.94 so when VC games can be elected to run at 480i and thus captureable with the Intensity, does this mean the Wii is artificially adjusting the SNES framerate to follow spec?

[Fudoh]

probably yes.

[GregI]

Slightly off topic but I tried my Intensity Shuttle today.

Shuttle playing GC game with Component: http://i.imgur.com/IBwTl.png
Shuttle playing GC game with Composite (notice you cannot see the left side border like above): I don't know if this is a problem with Composite or how game should look: http://i.imgur.com/WkCPQ.png

Aver playing GC game with Component (no border seen but you could see it on Shuttle component): http://i.imgur.com/9SDfS.png
Aver playing GC game with Composite (notice you also cannot see the left border): http://i.imgur.com/oMKvv.png

Either the Shuttle is accurate or the Aver is. Thoughts?

Also here is a 480 Super Famicom game on Shuttle using Component: http://i.imgur.com/DYiVc.png
Same area on Aver using Component (resized, my mistake): http://i.imgur.com/EHjoF.png

[Fudoh]

Shuttle Component is correct. All other videos have massive black crush.

For composite on the Shuttle you can set the black offset in the BMD Panel control. After that it will be correct as well.

[GregI]

Yeah, you are correct. I ran the Wii to my TV and got same picture as Shuttle.

Also about the Shuttle, I ran into a problem you maybe know about.

I've noticed that when I use video out ports (only tested Composite and Component so far) on the Shuttle I am not getting what the console outputs. I am getting what is being processed by the Intensity hardware. Is this normal? I have to split the signal before it reaches my TV to get the proper picture. The quality loss isn't significant on Component (hard to judge from visual memory) but you can really see it on Composite.

I'll try outputting Composite to HDMI (if that works)... Composite to Component cable output did.

[Fudoh]

That's right. The outputs are processed. That's neccessary to allow keying features (e.g graphic or video overlays). I don't know which of those available on the Shuttle, but the basic design of all BMDs is probably the same. My Multibridge is advertised as a standalone converter as well, but the quality isn't losless either. I tried converting component to SDI and while it's ok, it's not perfect.

[GregI]

I wondered if it was something like that. Makes sense cause when you switch on PC and have pass through connected you get a Blackmagic logo on your TV.

I have to say though, I honestly couldn't see the quality issue when I would use the Intensity Pro with a 360 or PS3 but then again as discussed in another thread you said the video on a Wii is far from good so that might be why (even the SC-500N1 has trouble displaying Wii correctly)

[GregI]

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3231 ... ost2065675

That is exactly what I am experiencing. Nothing you can fix though. Just seems to be 2d vs 3d comb filter on my TV handles composite better. I'm sure the Intensity Pro never had this or I just never looked for problems. Can anyone verify the Intensity Pro is the same? I uninstalled it to put in my Aver H727 so a pain to test.

Also after that he discussed full range HDMI and how Shuttle is only Limited. Is this going to cause trouble if I feed my Shuttle some upscale 720p RGB SNES footage which would be 4:4:4 (I think) over SCART? eg, I lose quality over a full range HDMI capture?

[Fudoh]

That is exactly what I am experiencing.

all BMDs, no matter if $150 or $2000 have the worst possible comb filters there are. If you NEED to capture composite, use an external comb filter (e.g. by running through a DVD-R recorder first)

Also after that he discussed full range HDMI and how Shuttle is only Limited. Is this going to cause trouble if I feed my Shuttle some upscale 720p RGB SNES footage which would be 4:4:4 (I think) over SCART? eg, I lose quality over a full range HDMI capture?

limited / full RGB range has little to do with color resolution. Short answer to your question: no. Longer answer: Since your final codec will likely be something like MPEG4/h.264 the color range should be limited anyway, since that's the standard for any YCbCr encoding. Also all available upscalers work internally with 4:2:2 color resolution, so there's no way you're getting through 4:4:4 into your BMD anyway. The better BMDs (mine for example) can also record in 8-bit RGB and 10-bit YCbCbr, both in 4:4:4, but there's really no reason to do that, due to the limited nature of the sources).

[GregI]

Last little problems before I am content.

If I capture SD in Amarec with an Intensity product it will come out as 720x488 instead of the advertised 720x486 in Amarec input window. If I record with Virtualdub I do infact get the correct resolution of 720x486. Tried different codecs, same issue.

Lastly, I have noticed that if I play Gamecube games on a Wii through the Shuttle I get a slight black border at the top of the image which is to be expected and how the non Shuttle passthrough is (but not pixel perfect obviously). If I do video out on Intensity Pro then the image is moved up so I have no black border at the top. This is to be expected from analogue sources right?

Also I have noticed in Amarec with the Shuttle that every 5 mins or so when just previewing the video (not recording or anything), where it says view and then cap, when I switch to Shuttle input I get maybe 10-25 or so dropped frames and then every 5 minutes or so it will say a frame drop occured and increment by 1 (never more than this). Is this anything to worry about? I have started recording some footage now and Amarec reads this:

http://i.imgur.com/QiOLi.png

The Intensity Pro is fine and shows 0,0,0

Edit - I recorded for about 15 minutes and I still had 29,0,0

[GregI]

More problems. I would have though Component on Pro and Shuttle would be identical.

Pro: http://i.imgur.com/0lR60.jpg
Shuttle: http://i.imgur.com/tgBEa.jpg

Overall Pro has a greenish tint on capture. Not sure if this is correct.

[Fudoh]

the Shuttle looks better, but who knows which one's right. On my BMD I can tweak the gains of the color channels, so you simply might have to calibrate the input before using.

[GregI]

the Shuttle looks better, but who knows which one's right. On my BMD I can tweak the gains of the color channels, so you simply might have to calibrate the input before using.

Looked at my old Aver H727 and that seems to agree with the Shuttle but that suffers from Component issues so no far forward. Pro is maybe wrong.

Doesn't matter anyway, I have to return Shuttle. It frequently drops a frame in Amarec and when I record it leaves the video file blank when this happens.

Using money from this to get the Startech I think. I will then have correct levels regardless.