Save Shmups forum from mediocrity

[Ed Oscuro]

I just wanted to say that if OT gets shut down, by god I'll start a new forum somewhere. Not necessarily for OT, but the "shmups and not all that much else" orientation always got to me. But I dunno...are people as picky about what games get High Scores threads as they used to be? A high score thread for Lethal Enforcers or Dead Connection (or even Ark Area, if it's disallowed) might just be what some people need. I'm not for forcing people to divert their focus, but missing out on a lot of the titles out there - including for competitive/fun play - is bad for the soul, man.

[moozooh]

fun that involved several paragraphs of vitriol rather than any useful insight.

The useful insight is poking fun at how you went from "we're on the same side" and "divisive crap" to the less wordy equivalent of "some people here are stupid they must leave" and pointing fingers within a span of a few sentences. Pretty much everybody else in the thread understands this; you should consider doing the same.

[AntiFritz]

We should ban people for posting random pictures/image macros in shmups chat. It contributes nothing and makes the whole forum seem just childish.

I'll admit I've done it once in that TOUHOU IS HARDER thread though.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think the amount of inherently 'bad posts' is actually a pretty small number; however, a single one can turn into a few pages if people start some argument about it irrelevant to the thread's original purpose. I feel if no-one gave them the time of day, they'd firstly stop bothering people since they're not really diluting the thread anymore, and secondly there wouldn't be incentive to make antagonistic posts in the first place. For example, I'm pretty sure most mentions of 'fucking casuals' in posts are there because, somehow, people still respond to this.

Not really looking to get involved in the ongoing debate here, just my two cents.

I disagree most ppl are probably just been too self conscious of the fact they suck.

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If anything it needs policing not just from the mods but from individual posters too, without guidelines ppl don't know how to act. Years back if someone started going off topic in a thread others would say so.

I would guess that Skykid opened up this thread to get some healthy discussion about standards. While ppl would argue that is shit posting in itself, atleast its better than telling ppl to shut up and continue on as normal.

[Giest118]

fun that involved several paragraphs of vitriol rather than any useful insight.

The useful insight is poking fun at how you went from "we're on the same side" and "divisive crap" to the less wordy equivalent of "some people here are stupid they must leave" and pointing fingers within a span of a few sentences. Pretty much everybody else in the thread understands this; you should consider doing the same.

And focusing every single aspect of your attention on that bit of inconsistency rather than what Skykid is actually trying to draw attention to makes you a badass. I guess.

[Erppo]

And focusing every single aspect of your attention on that bit of inconsistency rather than what Skykid is actually trying to draw attention to makes you a badass. I guess.

Trying to fight shitposting by opening a thread with some first class shitposting is just incredibly silly and the main reason this thread turned out the way it did.

[Giest118]

Okay. It's silly.

I don't understand how shitposting in response makes everything better. I would like someone to explain this to me. Details. Lots and lots of details.

[Skykid]

And focusing every single aspect of your attention on that bit of inconsistency rather than what Skykid is actually trying to draw attention to makes you a badass. I guess.

Thanks Giest.

Trying to fight shitposting by opening a thread with some first class shitposting is just incredibly silly and the main reason this thread turned out the way it did.

I'd wager it would have turned out this way regardless, but perhaps I could have worded it better. I didn't intend for it to be an outright shitpost though, I was angling for discussion on something other than 'fucking casuals'.

I would guess that Skykid opened up this thread to get some healthy discussion about standards.

That was the intention. Perception is fickle though, who knows what the real intention was?

= To take over the world.

[NTSC-J]

Skykid, while I happen to agree with a lot of what you said, did you really think this would be well received? I made a thread similar to this years and years ago and it got a similar reaction. People don't like being told that they suck, evidently.

This is just how forums are. If we were somehow able to do these threads in person, people would be a lot less hostile when they see another human staring back at them. Some places manage the douchebaggery better than others, but a bunch of guys, most still under the influence of testosterone, talking about a hobby that is largely solitary but still competitive is going to have some rough patches.

My one "pass the peace pipe" message would be just to ask people to pause for a second before they post a negative comment. The other day I really wanted to quote Randorama calling Icarus pompous and joke about the irony there, then I reminded myself that there are more productive things to do than contribute to the hostility. Gus may not be our most positive poster, but he has a mom that cares about him and probably a cat or tarantula that is at least indifferent. When I see him say something nasty, I try to remind myself that he's probably just in an unpleasant time in his life and he might not be real happy with himself or his situation and it's got nothing to do with me. He's a great player and if I met him, or other "troublemakers" on this forum, we'd probably be able to get along fine.

[Ko.oS]

"I've got gripes with you guys..."

yeah man, the good old times - the drama used to be more entertaining back then . its funny how all the chaps that gave you a "hard time" are long gone, huh? - not that i would care... what happened to j2d btw..?


___________________________
"That's Mr. Kaneda to you, punk! "

[neorichieb1971]

I'm here for the community, not for the shmups. I probably buy one shmup about every 2 years.

The problem with shmups is that they don't turnover enough titles per year. If you close off-topic I will only come here for hardware and trading. I actually like this forum a lot. It has the perfect blend of global players and also a good pedigree of people to help you achieve whatever goal your trying to reach, shmup related or not.

I don't have anything against Skykid, he provides some banter and criticism. Its only his opinion.

The forum members should be making home brew stuff we can all play. Thats probably the best bet to get the community talking about shmups again. If you rely on Cave or whatever, your probably going to wait a long time.

[Blackbird]

I'll admit that things get argumentative around here a little more often than I'm comfortable with (and I've occasionally instigated said arguments) but I think removing the off topic or getting worked up about shitposts is the wrong way to go. All the random topics are for the most part constrained to the off topic boards; the high score forums and the strategy boards are still filled with useful information. So long as the silliness doesn't get in the way of the useful information, why not leave it be?

It's been mentioned already, but we enjoy a very niche genre of games where releases are infrequent. Unless someone has intriguing news or is breaking new ground in the scoring, there's not too much to talk about. Off topic is going to happen, just to pass the time. The random threads are mostly amusing, and the point of the forum is to have fun, so I think we should relax a bit and just enjoy ourselves.

Having a game of the month seems like a great community builder, and it also gives the more scorist players a chance to shine.

I think we could continue to build this community and interest in shmups in general by doing a little shmup evangelism. I talk to all sorts of gamers, and whenever I hear someone express how they are bored with less challenging games, I know what to tell them. We could also try to be a little more welcoming towards newer posters, especially those with lower skill levels. Basically we just want to get people interested (and not scare them off).

[Marc]

I'd say that there are a handful of people deliberately knocking threads off-course with antaganistic comments, they know whothey are.

Shmups chat is my board of choice for a few simple reasons - the amount of time I spend on shmupling means I'm unlikely to be knocking down doors on the hi-score thread, and anything I have to say regarding strategy/tactics has already been said far better by someone else. There just needs to be more tolerance between people of every skill level. My personal way of playing - bar the odd half-hour training run here and there- is just to play one credit as far as I can, that's the way shmups used to be played on coin-op and consoles and that's the mindset I personally am locked into. Following something like Prom's guide would make gaming about as unfun as possible to me, but if it works for him, cool. A bit less attitude all round from everybody is all this place needs IMO. Maybe then even the lesser skilled such as myself would feel more comfortable joining in certain discussions, where at the moment my attitude is more 'what's the point?'.

Hope that all makes sense, it's early and I'm hung over.

[ED-057]

I'm here for the community, not for the shmups. I probably buy one shmup about every 2 years.

The problem with shmups is that they don't turnover enough titles per year. If you close off-topic I will only come here for hardware and trading. I actually like this forum a lot. It has the perfect blend of global players and also a good pedigree of people to help you achieve whatever goal your trying to reach, shmup related or not.

I don't have anything against Skykid, he provides some banter and criticism. Its only his opinion.

The forum members should be making home brew stuff we can all play. Thats probably the best bet to get the community talking about shmups again. If you rely on Cave or whatever, your probably going to wait a long time.

I pretty much agree with this. Back in the day I didn`t look at off-topic but now I always do. Shmups forum has an interesting demographic. I ignore the stupid threads unless they`re funny. A lot of the things that people get worked up about are already thoroughly-beaten long-dead horses anyway. So, my advice to everyone is, tomorrow when that thread appears with the subject "would Jesus credit-feed?" it`s probably better to ignore it this time around, and never forget that no matter how badly you suck at a game there is someone, somewhere, who is worse.

[Despatche]

A bit less attitude all round from everybody is all this place needs IMO. Maybe then even the lesser skilled such as myself would feel more comfortable joining in certain discussions, where at the moment my attitude is more 'what's the point?'.

the problem: that is already your attitude in the first place. you are affecting them, they are not affecting you.

edit: i like how i didn't even read the post above me

[iconoclast]

I just don't see why some people get up in arms about other people's way of playing. Really, why do you care if someone chooses to credit feed, play for survival, or play for score? Play however you like, as long as you're having fun. You can try to encourage people to see things from a different perspective by explaining how fun scoring can be, but trying to force your playstyle on other people just isn't going to work. If someone cared about playing for score, they'd start doing it on their own, and not because someone called them a fucking casual scrub in their moment of triumph after getting a 1cc they might have spent weeks/months working on. The shump community is very small; if you want it to grow, try being nice to people and helping them along when they have questions or need advice.

Although, the "fucking casuals" can be the instigators when they're trying to assert their opinions on games they don't understand (eg. all you need to do for score in DFK1.5 is spam bullet cancelling hypers! what a shit game). That's just as annoying, and at times, ridicule is deserved (like with IGN's Akai Katana review).

That's just my 2c. I try not to get involved in Internet arguments any more - I got all of that out my system with Ninja Gaiden II.

[emphatic]

Can't we have a "Shmups news" forum above the Shmups Chat? Just discussing actual games there and put the wether it's cool to score or not in the chat? This is one of the perks of being a member if CAVE-STG, the discussions are good and they never go into flame-war territory.

I go to shmups chat mainly to read about new stuff (ports, new MAME drivers or the odd new PCB release). To pass the time I read all the other crap too.

Oh and if this forum had an ignore function I'd use it.

[cools]

Heavier moderation or shmups forum will go the way of neo-geo.com forums...

[Despatche]

an ignore function would only hurt the people who use it. i could actually offer helpful advice, but it would all be catered specifically to these people. i can't do that.

as always, the real problem here is that "no one cares"/"no one's paying attention" (and this isn't about playing the games). the same people who complain about the state of the forums are usually the same people who cause it.

[THE]

Heavier moderation or shmups forum will go the way of neo-geo.com forums...

+1

Or ignore function.

On neo-geo.com we have the function to lock people into specific sub forums.
Maybe GUS could be locked into strategy and highscore? And DTP in strategy

I would offer myself as moderator too, but I would rule with my German iron fist and can't promise to not start World War III

[Ghegs]

On neo-geo.com we have the function to lock people into specific sub forums.

We have already done this for certain people.

[BPzeBanshee]

Can't we have a "Shmups news" forum above the Shmups Chat? Just discussing actual games there and put the wether it's cool to score or not in the chat? This is one of the perks of being a member if CAVE-STG, the discussions are good and they never go into flame-war territory.

I go to shmups chat mainly to read about new stuff (ports, new MAME drivers or the odd new PCB release). To pass the time I read all the other crap too.

This. I'm totally in for a Shmups News subforum where the only things in there is actual news and games ready to come out of Development. The rest can get filtered into the 'Chat' division.

I also agree with some of the sentiment regarding generalisation of the topic resulting in lack of content: Development has hardly any of the traffic Shmups Chat does but everything in there is generally all good. I think RNGmaster and a few others tried to bring in the cruddiness of this section briefly and I told them to fuck off, and unlike flamewars here that was the end of it - said members have contributed properly, curbed their tongues or stayed out. I think in my time there I've been taught more valuable lessons than here other than that moderators can't seem to make up their minds on who deserves banning and who doesn't.

[moozooh]

I would like someone to explain this to me. Details. Lots and lots of details.

Sure, why not.

The problem in question is aggressive, annoying, and generally disrespectful behavior between members. That is referred to as lack of integrity, divisive crap, and so on. Just to make sure we're on the same page with regards to the subject.

The only way to solve this problem is for everyone to excise all of those traits from their own behavior. This isn't being said as "you do it, I don't care", not at all; by starting to solve the problem with yourself you serve as an example for others and make it easier for everybody else. By doing the opposite, especially if you're a known and long-standing member of the community, you're sending a signal that it is alright to do the same (see the broken windows theory). In other words, not solving anything.

So what exactly happened in this thread that instantly sent it to the bottom of the barrel? Skykid refusing to identify himself as part of the problem and actually exacerbating it by doing exactly all the things he condemns, right at the start. If he doesn't consider himself guilty of finger-pointing, shitposting, and militant stances on what people should and shouldn't do, or what is and isn't crap, why should anybody else? (Now who's going to answer this one?) Registering five years ago as opposed to one or two is not a virtue. Being born before the 90s is not a virtue. Having played all the best games is not a virtue. Humility and respect are, and if you don't show them, don't expect others to start doing it in return.

[Aliquantic]

Isn't a News section pretty much what the shmups twitter is doing now? It might lack a little bit of visibility on those forums though, but it seems to be doing that job perfectly well otherwise.

[spadgy]

You take out of this forum what you put into it. And you can choose what to emphasise in what you take from the place.

I've made good real world friends, had some ace nights out, learned a lot about the genre, found myself a nice place to hang out in my local arcade, improved my (fairly middling) skill a great deal, ended up doing a tiny bit of consulting on PAL shmup releases, bought some wicked bits for my collection, added some specialty and thus potential to my career as a journalist, and had some really great laughs, all as a result of this forum.

What have I put in (before being made a mod)? Running a few hi-score columns, trying always to be friendly and positive, trying to quell unnecessary bickering, and being a bit silly fairly often.

Seems like an easy trade, and my experience of this place has been overwhelmingly positive.

There'll always be dicks here. That's life. But paying them little mind, and being proactive and trying to always post friendlily and positively is a surefire way of giving this place a far better excellent-to-bullshit ratio, and get more out of it.

All us members are the content of this place. Every post we each make is part of the quality of this place.

[Klatrymadon]

Registering five years ago as opposed to one or two is not a virtue. Being born before the 90s is not a virtue. Having played all the best games is not a virtue. Humility and respect are, and if you don't show them, don't expect others to start doing it in return.

Spot-on, moozooh. The problem isn't limited to the handful of people who quite plainly dislike each other, either - an awful lot of our number seem to be completely at home with being disrespectful or condescending to people they've barely exchanged two words with, presumably on the unfair assumption that they're idiots. This is par for the course on the internet in general, obviously, but this place could easily have a much more congenial atmosphere.

[spadgy]

this place could easily have a much more congenial atmosphere.

Indeed. So those of us able to be friendly and positive should lead by example!

And I think it worth saying there are loads of lovely, friendly people here. As with mainstream news, it's typically the negative stuff that stands out more, and attracts more attention.

EDIT: Also this is great. Almost sig-worthy!

Registering five years ago as opposed to one or two is not a virtue. Being born before the 90s is not a virtue. Having played all the best games is not a virtue. Humility and respect are, and if you don't show them, don't expect others to start doing it in return.

[Randorama]

+1

Will post my thoughts later on, I am posting now to get an e-mail now.

[Marc]

A bit less attitude all round from everybody is all this place needs IMO. Maybe then even the lesser skilled such as myself would feel more comfortable joining in certain discussions, where at the moment my attitude is more 'what's the point?'.

the problem: that is already your attitude in the first place. you are affecting them, they are not affecting you.

edit: i like how i didn't even read the post above me

It does directly affect me. I won't get involved in threads regardi g strategy and tactics, as at the moment it's inevitabke that the 'what the fuck do you onow you fucking casual' will follow, therefore I simply don't bother. Witness the whole shitstorm over the Fuatari ST3 debate, and the people that simply couldn't accept that some found a certain level more difficult than they did. It's tedious. The attitude that prevails from some is akin to telling people they can't/shouldn't comment on, say, football becaause they don't play it professionally. It's tedious in the extreme.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Since off topic is healthy. Maybe an offoff topic would be cool, where super shitposting goes to die.