Save Shmups forum from mediocrity

[Skykid]

In case no-one noticed, shmups are barely a blip on the videogame cardiograph, and if folks here don't start supporting each other it may as well be a flatline.

Simply by virtue of holding value in shmups, you're already ten times less 'casual' and more 'hardcore' than 95% of the current gaming population (in reference to the "fucking casual" divisions appearing in every thread of late.) There should be no in-fighting over distinctions of skill between members of the community, we're meant to be on the same side. For the last two years this place has become increasingly diluted by derision and pointless oneupmanship: prior to that everyone was on the same page regardless of scoring trophies.

I don't entirely blame the newer contingent, but they are becoming increasingly responsible for a glut of inane contributions.

I've been made aware through private discussion that a lot of the forum's older community are increasingly disenfranchised with the tone of late, and some - including our highest scorers - have chosen to disappear for a while. Some haven't been back in years, and that's a shame, since when I first joined they were a valuable backbone with plenty of historical knowledge.

There's plenty of value in this community, It would be nice if we could work together to get some integrity back. If not I side with Randorama's hardline stance on membership culling (this was meant to be tongue in cheek to a degree, since 'Plz Ban' is becoming Rando's catchphrase.)

[MathU]

That's the spirit, some nice forum censorship will solve everything!

No, bullshit. The absurd elitism of certain older forum users is just as much a problem as anything else. People see them post some toxic elitist horseshit about credibility or how owning something or doing something a certain way makes their opinion on something more valid and think that's how everyone should act around here.

Don't you realize that by naming names you're just inciting more bad feelings?

[Cagar]

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[Ed Oscuro]

We have some good discussions going on in e.g. blackoak's excellent Shooting Gameside translation threads.

Simple guidelines (maybe even rules!) from yours truly. You should pay attention because I have been at this foruming business for over a decade and have even moderated one of the top-ranked (in its time) messageboards (stifled by corporate greed and incompetence, alas, and being forced between "rules" and loyalties is no fun):

- If you don't like a discussion, don't encourage it by responding to it (that includes outside of the discussion)
- If you do like a discussion, you can post

Additional guidelines:
- If you don't like the way the forum is going, either vote with your feet or take proactive steps to create good topics
- Remember that a forum cannot be 100% quality and high-intensity quality. Learn to deal with an imperfect world.

The downside of trying to mod too strictly to keep on-topic is that you essentially gut the forum's core. Getting rid of some people who post stupid stuff has the side effect of cutting out much of the daily drama that keeps a forum going, so it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face! In practice I don't think there are many really notable forums that stay on-topic for something wholly niche like this. Some forums stay on-topic because they have wide appeal and strong moderation policies, or there simply is a strong consent among all the users to stay on-topic (motoring forums, photography-on-the-net Forum, and so on cover pretty large topics).

Otherwise, the amount of forum activity remains low, and that is a stronger disincentive to join than having all the posts be on-topic, but from 5 years ago. You can find evidence of this from the many posters with a 2009-2011 join date who tell us that the Forum has a "terrible" reputation, but they joined anyway.

There will always be complaints about forum quality, everywhere - the only way to stave it off is to actually try to become that core member who is respected for good topics. I note that the tendency of many members (including myself!) to post smarmy off-the-cuff responses doesn't really further the feel of inclusiveness or community, but pits members against each others.

[Erppo]

You can find evidence of this from the many posters with a 2009-2011 join date who tell us that the Forum has a "terrible" reputation, but they joined anyway.

I lurked the forum for quite a while before registering and always thought Shmups Chat was a really horrible place (and I still do). Only reason I registered is because this forum also happens to have the best Western scoreboards.

[moozooh]

If not I side with moozooh's hardline stance on membership culling.

Huh? I don't remember having such a stance...

Anyway, this thread sucks, and Ed Oscuro's post above explains why very well. One obvious way to retake integrity—if that's what you're looking for—would be for everybody to spend less time in shmups chat and off-topic sections and more in strategy/hi-score/development threads and actual shmupmeets, cause those are what builds integrity and decreases casualty. Or, I dunno, becoming better at games you love. That one also works.

[Obscura]

My personal feeling is that Gus should put a lid on it and learn to be respectful,

Why bother singling out Gus? Half of this forum is Gus, but without the scores to back it up.

[Krimzon Kitzune]

*snipped*

[Klatrymadon]

Yeah, there are plenty of people who could do with getting their act together, but the forum already has a reputation for being a rather touchy, testy place to post, so taking further measures to shut the dafties up could scare even more people away. We don't want this to become an anxiety-producing "one wrong move and you're out" forum, like you-know-who's.

[Ghegs]

The irony here is that this call for the shmups community comes from someone whose post ratio is ~75% in Off Topic. Maybe that's the problem right there - we should just close Off Topic, the whole subforum didn't even exist way back in the day, after all. There was only Shmups Chat, and that's what people talked about because, well, there wasn't a choice.

Ed's hitting the nail on the head on lots of points there. The niche nature of the genre combined with new releases being few and far between (in comparison to some other genres with dedicated forums) make it difficult to have a constant stream of quality, robust discussions. Especially in the lull between releases, it often seems there simply isn't anything to talk about...yet people post anyway.

[daliscar]

[Klatrymadon]

Maybe that's the problem right there - we should just close Off Topic, the whole subforum didn't even exist way back in the day, after all.

It's funny you mention that; I coulda swore it completely disappeared for a while last week!

[Bananamatic]

Simply by virtue of holding value in shmups, you're already ten times less 'casual' and more 'hardcore' than 95% of the current gaming population.

i thought games are about having fun

[xbl0x180]

Holy carp! I just checked... 80% of the junk I post is on [Off Topic], 15% of which is about cartoons! Shoot-'em-ups mediocrity and apathy at its best

[Skyknight]

I'm more interested in excising the idea that casuals are necessarily inferior to hardcores. Weakness is not a vice, nor strength a virtue, all right? The vices include Lust/Luxury (the original Latin really was "luxuria"), Gluttony, Avarice, Sloth (implying willfulness and fatalism), Wrath, Envy, and Pride. The virtues include Prudence, Temperance, Justice, Fortitude, Hope, Charity, and Humility. The only dyad you could remotely map casual/hardcore to is Sloth/Fortitude, and even THEN, as my parenthesis noted, Sloth implies willfulness. It's knowing what the right thing that must be done is, but not doing simply because the not-doing is easier. A little different from not doing it because you have higher priorities...

[moozooh]

...And now I'm going to do the unexpected and name some of the off-topic threads I've had great fun reading and participating in! Maybe this will help something, like getting a better picture at what off-topic threads actually help building integrity and shit.

Shmups System11 activity time - Shmup Title Pictionary!
Q and A
SHMUPS Picture Week VIII: Change your avatar, show yourself

I'll add more if I remember any.

[casualcoder]

From my short time on here I would say this forum has started to lose me a little. When I first decided to register I thought I would mainly be on here getting an inside track on new games, strategies, and ways to improve... But a quarter of my posts have already been retorts in pointless battles against nameless, faceless people that have nothing to do with the original post (before you get the genius idea of telling me to just ignore them, do realize that once the flame-bait comes out, the original post becomes hijacked and at that point ignoring would be tantamount to ignoring the entire thread - usually my only reason for checking in) - so no that isn't a solution.

Also, claims against censorship are misapplied. I'm completely against censorship in avenues that matter, but in polite public discourse there are some things that aren't tolerated, and so don't fall under censorship but rather form the rules of normal human interaction. Bullying, threatening, berating, and antagonizing in otherwise civil settings is usually met with the offending party being thrown out. This isn't a political protest rally, this is supposed to be a civil setting. And don't forget, there are moderators for a reason.

Having said that, I don't think I have seen much to warrant outright bans, atleast not permanent ones. But there is no doubt there is some rot on here. It is greatly outweighed by the many thoughtful and helpful posts, but if you have one bad part of an apple, it ruins your appetite no matter how good the rest of it is.

[xbl0x180]

There's no enjoying these games based on graphics, music, and... nostalgia? I like watching others with skill play. I remember playing at arcades and seeing kids gather 'round the best gamer to see how far he could take it and not once did I ever hear about "casuals," ESPECIALLY when it came to shoot-'em-ups (I could see that wienerdude attitude taking place in fighting games, though)

[Skykid]

The irony here is that this call for the shmups community comes from someone whose post ratio is ~75% in Off Topic.

That's a good indicator that off topic is the best section of the forum these days. The threads tend to have some purpose, whether discussing ponies or politics.

If not I side with moozooh's hardline stance on membership culling.

Huh? I don't remember having such a stance...

Sorry, getting you mixed up with Randorama I think.

I've excised any name dropping from the top-post. I think it's fair enough to just assume it's a blanket issue, and counter-productive to treat it otherwise.

From my short time on here I would say this forum has started to lose me a little. When I first decided to register I thought I would mainly be on here getting an inside track on new games, strategies, and ways to improve... But a quarter of my posts have already been retorts in pointless battles against nameless, faceless people that have nothing to do with the original post (before you get the genius idea of telling me to just ignore them, do realize that once the flame-bait comes out, the original post becomes hijacked and at that point ignoring would be tantamount to ignoring the entire thread - usually my only reason for checking in) - so no that isn't a solution.

That's a pretty good synopsis.

[dan76]

The mods need to take more action against shitposters and trolling. People are sheep and they need herding.

I met a fella today at Casino and he said he was interested in shmups and wanted to get better at them. I told him about the Casino thread here, but first had to warn him that, well, it was a forum with its fair share of fuckwits. God knows what anyone would think if they're mildly interested in the genre and they stumble upon this place.

None of this goes on at CaveSTG as members know they'll get banned. You therefore have a forum where people have to think before they post, and anything that's posted you can pretty much count on as being reliable or at least well informed opinion.

Strict banning might not be the best method of getting this place in shape and I can't think of anything better.

An ignore function would be great.

[Vamos]

Off topic for me is the best section especially for non shmup game related talk , i still think a non shmup scoreboard section would be a great idea here as this community tends to have great taste in other games aswell and generally similar interests .

[Klatrymadon]

An ignore function would be great.

I think we'd break it through overuse, mate. There's only one thing for it...

[xbl0x180]

I change my mind! I think we should keep this stuff as-is

[Skykid]

The mods need to take more action against shitposters and trolling. People are sheep and they need herding.

I met a fella today at Casino and he said he was interested in shmups and wanted to get better at them. I told him about the Casino thread here, but first had to warn him that, well, it was a forum with its fair share of fuckwits. God knows what anyone would think if they're mildly interested in the genre and they stumble upon this place.

None of this goes on at CaveSTG as members know they'll get banned. You therefore have a forum where people have to think before they post, and anything that's posted you can pretty much count on as being reliable or at least well informed opinion.

Strict banning might not be the best method of getting this place in shape and I can't think of anything better.

An ignore function would be great.

It's also become common for topics like this to have to withstand ten instantly conflicting posts before someone turns up to put some useful perspective on it. Thanks for being that person Dan.

I don't expect everyone to be on the same page and I agree with a lot of Ed's points. Generally speaking though every thread of late seems to instantly devolve into banality, finger pointing and shitposting that usually has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Off Topic is like a refuge.

[Smraedis]

I know I should post more, sorry about that. Though there are a lot of threads that I can't really contribute to.

The translation efforts from Blackoak is a nice addition to the forum indeed. The STGT always brings us all together too.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I can't think of anywhere else to go for video game discussions so I don't give a damn about the quality of this place. (I'm open to suggestions though!) I've got a greasemonkey script blacklisting a bunch of users anyway.

[shmuppyLove]

The STGT always brings us all together too.

I know on the Racketboy forums they have the "Together Retro" feature where they pick one game and everyone tries it out and talks about it. Monthly I think it changes?

I think that's a cool thing we could do here - pick one game and have everyone post scores, strategies, reviews, etc.

Boo yay no?

[TransatlanticFoe]

Off Topic-like boards have been the soul of the community of any forum I've been a regular of. Most of those have been relatively obscure bands, so share the same problem this forum has - within the realms of the shared interest, there are often long periods of inactivity. Off Topic is a chance to get discussion going amongst people who have a common interest elsewhere and it usually has fun and interesting results (amongst the inevitable shite you always seem to get on forums, because some people seem to think that the internet means it's fair game to be a tossrag). Long may it continue - I think this board is fine as it is the way it's currently divided up.

Maybe moderation does need to be a bit harsher - but there's douchebaggery over in Off Topic as well. Do the mods want the hassle? Probably not. Not rising to the rubbish is a good way of self-moderating, so maybe an ignore function would be nice. Personally, I just ignore most of it but it can become tedious to wade through pages of garbage.

Were it not for this place, I wouldn't know about the awesome range of Japanese exclusive shmups I could get for my Saturn or (in spite of the vitriol they seem to have aimed at them for minor things) the work NG:Dev and the DUX/Redux offshoots do in keeping physical releases for "old school" genres coming.

[Gus]

In case no-one noticed, shmups are barely a blip on the videogame cardiograph, and if folks here don't start supporting each other it may as well be a flatline.

Simply by virtue of holding value in shmups, you're already ten times less 'casual' and more 'hardcore' than 95% of the current gaming population. There should be no in-fighting over distinctions of skill between members of the community, we're meant to be on the same side. For the last two years this place has become increasingly diluted by derision and pointless oneupmanship: prior to that everyone was on the same page regardless of scoring trophies.

I don't entirely blame the newer contingent, but they are becoming increasingly responsible for a glut of inane contributions.

I've been made aware through private discussion that a lot of the forum's older community are increasingly disenfranchised with the banal and idiotic tone of late, and some - including our highest scorers - have chosen to disappear for a while. Some haven't been back in years, and that's a shame, since when I first joined they were a valuable backbone with plenty of historical knowledge (yes, shmups existed before Cave.)

A veto on discussions about Futari, Touhou and Cave games on Steam would also be pleasant.

There's plenty of value in this community, It would be nice if we could work together to get some integrity back. If not I side with Randorama's hardline stance on membership culling.

I think it needs to be said that 2 years ago the landscape was very different. DOJ and Ketsui hadn't been ported to MAME, Cave hadn't quite broken into the western market yet, Prom hadn't made his guide yet, etc. In short this genre was a lot smaller and from the score threads I've looked over the players were overall a lot worse. Sure there were guys like MrMonkeyMan and Prometheus getting huge scores but it wasn't like now where it feels like there's new western records every week or so.

I'd argue that a far bigger problem than this recent rise of new players who give a fuck about learning to play are guys like you, who barely even care about learning to play and just tell guys like me and Cagar who do care how badly we need to get a life or get laid. But at the end the day I don't give a fuck what people tell me on the internet and neither should you. It's like Cagar said the community is evolving. Players are getting better and more keen on learning2play. I just see all this bullshit drama as growing pains.

Man is beast and superbeast; the higher man is inhuman and superhuman: these belong together. With every increase of greatness and height in man, there is also an increase in depth and terribleness: one ought not to desire the one without the other — or rather: the more radically one desires the one, the more radically one achieves precisely the other.

[Formless God]

There's no enjoying these games based on graphics, music, and... nostalgia?

No secondaries allowed.