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[Giest118]

More playtesting. I have yet to see a released software product where bugs couldn't be found months after release.

If it's really *that* perfect, then start the next project early and stop sinking money into the finished one.

Playtesting is a huge component of actually making a product polished, so that's a bit redundant.

Your next point seems a bit silly though. If they want to add more stuff to a game that's already awesome anyway, what's the harm?

[Despatche]

The system may get tiring, but when that's the point, it doesn't really bug me. I'd prefer equivalent difficulties, but if you think it's better to have a loop, I can totally respect that. There's a lot more I could respond to, but not now.

[RNGmaster]

Psikyo loops are great because even 2 loops just take 30 minutes and there are no loop conditions except not continuing.

Ketsui loop conditions are just forced-ragequit bullshit which I never want to go through again.

[Randorama]

I like one loop, around 25 minutes of maximal duration, six or seven stages. Since we're here, I also like a high-scoring final stage, as in e.g. Sokyugurentai.

I agree with RNG, though: Psykio loops were the best way to handle this feature.

[CptRansom]

Fuck loops. More than anything else (even more than chaining), the concept of looping keeps me from getting into DonPachis, Ketsui, Raidens (especially the first two), Gradius...es..., R-Types, WHATEVER. I'm not saying I'm good enough to loop those games (fuck, I'm not even good enough/I'm too lazy to 1-ALL them), and honestly, I never will be because I don't give a fuck about looping games.

As much as I absofuckinglutely hate the scoring system in Deathsmiles, it did a good job of implementing different difficulties. Futari's system is great. The difficulties in Eschatos are awesome (and there's always Endless for you folks who just can't get enough loops). I think DFKBL did a cool thing by making the ship type correspond to difficulty and removing the loop. I'm not a big fan of Touhou, but again, the difficulty selection is nice.

Suck it, loops.

[DragonInstall]

Loops just drag the game on far too long.

Have 3 difficulties and have fun right away.

[trap15]

Loops suck. Difficulty settings increase how long a game can last. Obvious choice.

[Giest118]

Putting my actual opinion on the poll in here...

I'm totally fine with literally any of these approaches, but "difficulty select" is the one I voted for. The reason I'm okay with loops is that, when done right, the first loop still keeps you on your toes for one reason or another. But obviously the advantage of a difficulty select is that you can more or less play a game that's exactly as hard as you want it to be.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Loops generally do make things drag on for a lot longer than I'd prefer, so I'm not a fan of them in general. I would still love to have a few arcade 2-Alls someday though, so it's not like looping will get me to not play a game. I really hate that Omote and Ura thing as if there's a loop, I want equal opportunity annihilation for both player types.


I like both difficulty selection because it makes games more accessible.. I doubt the Mushihimesama games would be very popular if it was all Ultra all the time. Same thing if Touhous were all Lunatic all the time. or Deathsmiles MBL being at 999 all the time. It also allows a way to let you to work your way up in skill. And it's probably good for arcade owners too as more difficulties with different patterns/scoring = more categories people compete in and more potential money from people playing different modes. I do also like 1 difficulty no loop as well.

[iconoclast]

Care to tell us how this works, I havn't been keeping up with the SDOJ thread

Shot & Laser have normal difficulty, and Expert has patterns you would see in a second loop. And since the game doesn't loop, they balanced it by making both difficulties look harder than the first and second loops from the other Pachi games.

[BulletMagnet]

Difficulty settings are dumb in games. Why would you ever pick anything other than the easiest option? It's the obvious best strategic choice for beating the game.

Just getting to the end credits isn't necessarily the only worthwhile accomplishment to shoot for in a game, though.

Does DS2 have the same system? How does it compare to DS1? Does it have suicide bullets?

The arcade version doesn't on any of its revisions, but "DSIIX" mode on the 360 port allows per-level difficulty selection. Not sure offhand about the suicide bullet thing.

[Meseki]

I prefer difficulty settings over loops. That makes the game more accessible to less experienced people while allowing more experienced people to not have to deal with boring early stages. It also gives the less skilled a chance to experience firsthand a little bit of the challenge the game has to offer, since they can just select "Hard" difficulty or such, instead of having to get to a second loop that they may not be good enough to reach.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

on the subject of Deathsmiles II suicide bullets, yes it has them.

X-Mode has them on certain difficulties based on conditions with several types. Arcade has them when you use Lockshot while in power up, with this being part of the scoring. Arcade mode's suicide bullets are very dangerous to deal with as they home on your hitbox and they are faster than you are.

[Zorator]

Home versions that don't have unlockable loops(a feature which really needs to become standard) should have a feature that allows you to start the first round on an easier difficulty, then have it return to normal when you start the loop, selectable after you've reached the loop for the first time.

I also like Batsugun's loop system, where you start at the second stage in the first special round, then the third of the next round, and so on.

[LtC]

In my opinion:

Best:
-Multiple difficulties where difficulty also changes gameplay, scoring or any game mechanic
Good:
-Single loop where second loop changes gameplay, scoring or any game mechanic other than just suicide bullets or bullet volume or speed
-No loops, one difficulty with TLB (need to make requirements to face) and/or rank mechanic
Decent:
-Multiple difficulties where only bullet volume and/or speed change with each difficulty
-Second loop that only changes bullet volume and/or speed
Why:
-Infinite loops

[Naut]

Difficulty selection is prefered. However, I am of the opinion that the longer you play well the more impressive a run is, so I tend to admire looping game players more simply because they're more consistant with their skills.

Yeah I said it, Touhou does difficulty scaling better than CAVE. Get fapping Touhou fans

The only thing wrong with this is that you assumed we weren't already fapping.

[Captain]

Add a new option, difficulty unlocking.

For example you have to beat the game on hard once to unlock the "very hard" difficulty, but you can start the game in "very hard" from then on.

[Ghegs]

Loops suck. Even with games I like I have a really hard time getting interested in them, especially if the loop means just slightly more aggressive shooting from the enemies. Gradius Gaiden does alright in this regard, as you can start from the second loop after clearing the first one and the second loop adds whole new environmental hazards and an additional boss. I just ignore the rest of the infinite loops.

Astro Port (eg. Satazius) does good too. No loops, multiple difficulties and the harder ones often add an extra boss or something to fight. And all the score bonuses are increased.

[PROMETHEUS]

The one thing I like with loops is that everyone is playing the same game,
and also, that the first loop usually has a very different gameplay focus : in the DDPs the first loop is very methodical, while the second loop is more about dodging.

However I still prefer difficulty modes for the obvious reasons, you don't get bored by too easy first stages, and you don't play the "same" stages twice during one run which is unnatural and less exciting.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Difficulty selection is prefered. However, I am of the opinion that the longer you play well the more impressive a run is, so I tend to admire looping game players more simply because they're more consistant with their skills.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Seriously guys stop hating on loops, otherwise quite a few superplays wouldn't be so amazing to watch.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Difficulty all the way for me personally. Actually, I really like the rank system Aleste/Power Strike uses where the enemy types and formations depend not only on how long you survive but also which weapons you have equipped and when. More games should do stuff like that.

A loop in itself, as it is most commonly used, works dependent on how committed you are to the game. For those who do not wish to spend a long time with a given game, it can feel like a kick in the balls to finally get the clear only to be dumped into suicide bullet hell. However it gives an extra challenge to thoe who spend more time with the game. Personally, I think having this via a difficulty (back to Aleste, Super Aleste gives you direct access to a hard mode with suicide bullets) means those who want to master that challenge, can go straight there without having to play through the game they've already mastered first.

I am not a fan of loops/true last bosses with insane requirements to reach, because it feels like a section of the game is denied to most players - not in the sense of "you have to get better to get to the next level" progression, but they're almost always at the "you have to be super-awesome and spend half your life playing it to reach" level. Making things like DoDonPachi's Saturn Mode a godsend.

I like to play different games and having disposable income opens this up to me now - whereas as a kid I would properly master my games because the next one would be a long time coming. When I come back to a game now, it often takes me a few plays to get back to where I was but I usually do a little better when I'm done. It amounts to slow progress but I don't mind. I'd like games to have a difficulty setting beyond faster bullets/enemies but not as extreme as totally different game mechanics.

And with separate difficulty settings must come separate high score tables!

[Despatche]

I am not a fan of loops/true last bosses with insane requirements to reach, because it feels like a section of the game is denied to most players - not in the sense of "you have to get better to get to the next level" progression, but they're almost always at the "you have to be super-awesome and spend half your life playing it to reach" level.

This is silly, name one requirement that begins to resemble this. Even Progear and Ketsui are pretty tame, and they still would be if it was NMNB instead.

[Giest118]

This is silly, name one requirement that begins to resemble this. Even Progear and Ketsui are pretty tame, and they still would be if it was NMNB instead.

... You do have to NMNB Ketsui to unlock Doom. Or more specifically, the Ura loop that contains Doom. Of course, once you're in the loop, there aren't really any more requirements, but a NMNB of the first loop is actually kind of a little bit somewhat challenging-ish for some people.

[Despatche]

Oops, I was thinking of Omote. Yes, it's hard, because Ketsui is hard. That's also reasonable, never mind the alternative probably would have been to NMNB Ura.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I am not a fan of loops/true last bosses with insane requirements to reach, because it feels like a section of the game is denied to most players - not in the sense of "you have to get better to get to the next level" progression, but they're almost always at the "you have to be super-awesome and spend half your life playing it to reach" level.

This is silly, name one requirement that begins to resemble this. Even Progear and Ketsui are pretty tame, and they still would be if it was NMNB instead.

I was exaggerating a bit there, but requirements other than a 1CC are daft in my opinion. I qualified this with the paragraph above (immediate access via difficulty setting for more skilled/dedicated players) and paragraph below (not all players want to spend time mastering games - there are tonnes more games out there to play and only so many hours a day to play them in) - because it can frustrate both ends of the skill spectrum.

[Despatche]

Well, the 1CC is the bare minimum that everyone must be shooting for, you have to put something with that. Statements like "not all players want to spend time mastering games" bother me because it always sounds like these people shouldn't even be bothering with this genre, that these are the people who just mash credits or otherwise don't really play the games; having any requirement would be "daft" here.

Yes, I know this is all just supposed to feed into "loops are bad", but whatever. I think what should be done is have some kind of "unlockable difficulty" with the same kind of requirements classic loops would have, or even make it into some odd "puzzle" of requirements complete with hints etc. I think that might actually solve everything.

edit: mine is better than yours

[Captain]

Add a new option, difficulty unlocking.

For example you have to beat the game on hard once to unlock the "very hard" difficulty, but you can start the game in "very hard" from then on.

[Subterranean Sun]

As long as a full run takes less than 40 minutes it's fine; the game becomes too tedious and/or frustrating otherwise.

[KMM]

Well, the 1CC is the bare minimum that everyone must be shooting for

Bakraid.

Add a new option, difficulty unlocking.

Being forced to unlock higher difficulties isn't fun, especially for the good players who don't want to rape their way through the boring lower difficulties to get to something they'll enjoy. Start with them all available.

[cools]

Difficulty unlocking is always a stupid mechanism.

Rank controlled difficulty is where it's at, and hasn't been beaten yet.