Why I can't stand JRPGs anymore.

[Ed Oscuro]

Actually I'd say Gothic and Vagrant Story are the anti-JRPGs. Rougelikes are fine but they've got far more distance from the breed to count.

[BulletMagnet]

I'll be the sorta-odd man out here and say that I still enjoy a fair amount of JRPGs, though these days they have to do more to catch my eye than they did back in the 16-bit era, when relatively few of them were localized: basically, the farther away it gets from Dragon Quest (basic battle system, grinding, archetypal setting/characters, etc.) the more likely it is that I'll enjoy it. Alternating "Fight" and "Cure" with the occasional "Fire" until my levels are high enough to make do with just "Fight" doesn't keep me as enthralled as it used to - I need a more unusual backdrop and/or cast coupled with a more technical or "skill-based" combat system, and something like Shadow Hearts checks those boxes capably. It's not a total departure from convention or a "the only reason you play this is because it's really freaking hard" sort of title, but for my tastes it does nicely, and it's hardly the only one out there if you look around a bit.

[ED-057]

1. Cliche characters/story. I mean come on how many times you want to hear the same old story with same cliche characters. I despise one cliche most, weak main characters, whoever came up with this shit needs to be shot. I don't say the main character should be macho or something like that but at the same time he should'nt be a complete coward/pussy.

I think there should be more heroes like Cyrano from Rhapsody of Zephyr who told the big, mean looking demon boss something like "give up now and I promise your end will be quick and painless."

[moozooh]

The reason I can't stand jrpgs is the story and characters are usually childish. The games never seemed aimed towards adult, and thus I lose interest quickly.

This. I don't remember a single character that wasn't completely predictable in any of the JRPGs I've tried. Their scripts and dialogues also seem like they were written by teenagers... for kids. (The last one that didn't make me puke was some RPGMaker fangame loosely based on Lufia 2's setting.) Alternatively they involve an ungodly mashup of religious symbolism that doesn't make sense. Actually, that is probably NGE's fault in the first place.

Typically, this comes from Neon Genesis Evangelion's Shinji, who is a complete puss.

Actually no, the coming of age trope was present in anime from way before NGE, and NGE's particular realization is actually pretty different. Typically, in JRPGs the protagonist is a good-natured person with ideals or dreams he wants to aspire to, but is too weak/irresolute/unlucky. As the plot progresses, his good nature becomes his guiding force in the plot events, he gets to become stronger both physically and mentally, and luck goes on his side. All of this usually happens within, like, weeks in the game's world, and is completely bogus and unrealistic.

Shinji, on the other hand, has pretty much no ideals nor redeeming qualities, he is a lonely kid who wants to be loved. He's submissive to an extent that he's only capable of overpowering the enemy when he breaks down and lets his pent-up emotions control him and channel into Unit 01. He doesn't really become significantly stronger in any way over the course of the anime, he just learns to be more secure about his own feelings and the feelings of others towards him. And most of that happens, like, in the second half of the last episode. Pretty different, isn't it?

[1up]

The late 90's completely killed it for me. You had to sit through 30-60mins of walls of text and a few cutscenes before you could actually get to start playing, if you were lucky, and didn't have to do a couple of tutorial battles first.

And now they've added voice acting, and with childish characters with super annoying voices, I can't see how I can ever get back in?

I did buy Tales of Vesperia last year but haven't even tried booting it yet...

[Cuilan]

It sounds like everyone in this thread needs to play Lost Odyssey.

...or abominations of bad writing like Eternal Sonata.

It's a real shame the story-telling in Eternal Sonata was so poor, because the story itself was fantastic. I really wish they'd make a spiritual sequel that takes all of the strengths (battle system, story, art direction) and fixes all of the issues (story-telling, enemy variety, linearity).

[Hagane]

I liked how Grandia 1 added an SRPG element to a regular JRPG with positioning and spell ranges. More JRPGs should do that.

[RNGmaster]

Shadow Hearts series is pretty fucking manly and non-cliche as JRPGs go. Partially because it doesn't take itself so got-damn seriously.

[Cuilan]

I liked how Grandia 1 added an SRPG element to a regular JRPG with positioning and spell ranges. More JRPGs should do that.

Lunar, the Tales series, and I think Star Ocean did it before Grandia. Other RPGs that have SRPG-ish battle systems are The Last Remnant, Eternal Sonata, Princess Crown, The Last Story, Resonance of Fate, FFXII, and FFXIII/XIII-2.

[drunkninja24]

I'd really love to see a battle system like The Last Remnant's expanded on a bit more. I loved the game, especially how some of the boss fights really felt like a genuine challenge (Gates of Hell anyone?). Shame it did so poorly.

[scrilla4rella]

I totally understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. My peak JRPG phase was the PSOne era. After the disappointment of Xenosga and FFX I realized that either the quality and originality of JRPGs had dropped off or I had just grown out of them personally and I was no longer into spending so much time finishing these long-ass games.

However, for the last couple of years I've been getting back into some old-school RPGs that I never played back in the day. When in doubt keep it 8 and 16-bit. Awhile ago I finished Dragon Quest IV and recently I finished Larange Point (mind-blowing graphics and music) . I just started up Dragon Quest V in SFC and I'm loving every moment of it. The story is really hard-hitting and the graphics have that great early SFC/SNES charm to them. I'm sure that if this was released in English back in the day it would be remembered along with the greats like FFIV, FFVI, and Chrono Trigger.

[Zaarock]

I liked how Grandia 1 added an SRPG element to a regular JRPG with positioning and spell ranges. More JRPGs should do that.

Lunar, the Tales series, and I think Star Ocean did it before Grandia. Other RPGs that have SRPG-ish battle systems are The Last Remnant, Eternal Sonata, Princess Crown, The Last Story, Resonance of Fate, FFXII, and FFXIII/XIII-2.

Valkyrie Profile 2(PS2) definitely does this as well (resonance of fate's system is based on it). Don't really like what they did with the story and characters (especially when VP1's was much better) but the combat is pretty fun and it has a nice soundtrack.

[JBC]

Worst, most unrealistic, non-functional, flamboyant and nauseating character designs I've ever seen created using a visual style that's been ripped off and reused by an entire country for decades. Right from your first visual introduction to 95% of JRPGs you are greeted by a complete lack of sophistication and originality.

Annoying nonsensical naming conventions.

Overall, underlying storyline and visual contexts of anime & JRPGs seem predisposed to cater to pedophiles and the baser, more barbaric examples of it's home country's user base. I'd rather avoid all of it before accidentally spending my money on one bad egg, since such things are so accepted and commonplace in anime. Before that gets anyone's panties in a ruffle, know that I don't watch American prime time television for similar reasons. It's not out of some fearful religious bullshit, I just find sex to be one dimensional and stupid as a thematic element. There is more to life.

[Skykid]

2 posts for the price of one.

I personally believe current JRPGs are a reflection of the Japanese games industry in general:

- Afraid to try new things for fear of failure
- Attempts to pander more to western markets (weeaboos, cosplayers) than develop for Japanese tastes
- Failure to develop as an industry and introduce new de facto forms of JRPG
- Regimented, producer controlled products that have no core imaginative team in the driving seat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After years not playing JRPGs, I spent ages having withdrawal symptoms.

I attempted the following:

- Final Fantasy: 4 Warriors of Light: Turned out to be broken, with poor dungeon layout and rather soulless, gave up after about 2 hours.
- Dragon Quest XI: Started off incredibly promising, but then gave way to completely dull and hackneyed structuring. Gave up after about 3-4 hours.
- Resonance of Fate: Horrible in almost every conceivable way. 1 hour.
- Final Fantasy 13: Only in your worst nightmares would something this awful be classed as a videogame. 3 - 4 hours.
- Infinite Undiscovery: Horribly Yawnsome, crappy camera, felt really budget. 45 minutes.
- Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: The only Zelda I've never finished. Terrible recurring dungeon idea that practically ruins the entire game. 6 hours.

The only ones I managed to get through were both on the DS:

- Chrono Trigger
- Final Fantasy III

Go figure.

My current backlog (stuff I own and intend to play): FFXII, Arc The Lad, Seiken Densetsu 3

[burgerkingdiamond]

Worst, most unrealistic, non-functional, flamboyant and nauseating character designs I've ever seen created using a visual style that's been ripped off and reused by an entire country for decades. Right from your first visual introduction to 95% of JRPGs you are greeted by a complete lack of sophistication and originality.

Annoying nonsensical naming conventions.

Overall, underlying storyline and visual contexts of anime & JRPGs seem predisposed to cater to pedophiles and the baser, more barbaric examples of it's home country's user base. I'd rather avoid all of it before accidentally spending my money on one bad egg, since such things are so accepted and commonplace in anime. Before that gets anyone's panties in a ruffle, know that I don't watch American prime time television for similar reasons. It's not out of some fearful religious bullshit, I just find sex to be one dimensional and stupid as a thematic element. There is more to life.

I don't watch TV because it's mind numbingly stupid and embarassing.

[CptRansom]

It sounds like everyone in this thread needs to play Lost Odyssey.

[Cuilan]

I personally believe current JRPGs are a reflection of the Japanese games industry in general:

- Attempts to pander more to western markets (weeaboos, cosplayers) than develop for Japanese tastes

Current JRPGs are designed to pander to teenage Japanese boys, first and foremost. Quite a few JRPGs aren't even released outside of Japan. The size of the demographic you describe is way too small to be worth pandering to. This is evident by sales of JRPGs being way higher in Japan than they are anywhere else.

Also, why aren't you people playing Lost Odyssey?

[Skykid]

I personally believe current JRPGs are a reflection of the Japanese games industry in general:

- Attempts to pander more to western markets (weeaboos, cosplayers) than develop for Japanese tastes

Current JRPGs are designed to pander to teenage Japanese boys, first and foremost.

If that's the case Japanese kids must be seriously fucked up.

[mrsmiley381]

I personally believe current JRPGs are a reflection of the Japanese games industry in general:

- Attempts to pander more to western markets (weeaboos, cosplayers) than develop for Japanese tastes

Current JRPGs are designed to pander to teenage Japanese boys, first and foremost.

If that's the case Japanese kids must be seriously fucked up.

Don't you remember the thread we had about Japanese youth having no interest in sex and staying inside with fuck pillows all day?

[Skykid]

Don't you remember the thread we had about Japanese youth having no interest in sex and staying inside with fuck pillows all day?

Indeed. It's just bewildering what passes for male role models these days.

[Formless God]

It sounds like everyone in this thread needs to play Shin Megami Tensei.

ftfy

[Ganelon]

I'm still a big JRPG fan, just not of modern console JRPGs. Polygonal graphics aren't as appealing to me as sprites used to be. Any sign of loli and my interest dies. Any lengthy philosophical discussion using elementary diction and my suspension of disbelief dissipates. I always played RPGs primarily for atmosphere (as opposed to battle mechanics) so the only ones that hold my interest appeal on a more emotional level with the visuals, music, characters, and setting. I don't care much if the mechanics or story are derivative; all these gimmicky systems and post-modern stories don't give me any added enjoyment when everything else feels uninteresting.

Back in the day, I'd finish off a lackluster RPG anyway. These days, those games are put in a long limbo. Before, if I wasn't sure I'd enjoy an RPG, I would often still pick it up for $15-20. Nowadays, if I don't feel a strong connection, I don't even bother. I couldn't even justify paying $10-13 for Nier and Resonance of Fate lately. Buying The Last Remnant for $15 was probably the last remnant of my old, optimistic RPG purchasing habits. Time is definitely a factor in my decisions. I never want to waste money to buy something that I won't play.

For folks who remember, Chrono Trigger was already hailed as a JRPG classic by the late 90s. I'm not sure any majority could agree on an original JRPG released in the last 5 years to be an all-time classic. It's probably better this way though, with more time and money to do other things.

[Despatche]

just play final fantasy xii forever

forever

[rancor]

If that's the case Japanese kids must be seriously fucked up.

You have no idea. I find these kids over here bewildering in their tastes, hobbies, and what they do when they think no ones looking. I've had a good chance lately to meet and hang-out with some in taking my boy to different playgrounds, shopping mall arcades, and community centers. Any yes - the high school kids are still frequenting these places.

[kid aphex]

I'll just leave this here, 'kay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNauq6_9iP0

[Cuilan]

I'll just leave this here, 'kay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNauq6_9iP0

D'aww, that was adorable~

(watched it with the volume off)

[kid aphex]

For tons of reasons, classically (for me, that means 'Japanese') designed games are dying out.
There seem to be very few devs in Japan who feel the need to fight back, with any sort of 'evolutionary energy', against this extinction.
I'd say Platinum and From have done an admiral job...but as far as JRPG developers go?
The best Japanese developed RPG I played this generation was Nier. The game is nothing short of a work of art.
Problem is, it's not considered a "JRPG"... but it should be.
I also loved Resonance of Fate. Seriously, one of the best RPGs I've ever played... but it strayed so far from the tropes and mechanics that typify the JRPG, most reviewers (Western) didn't really know what they were playing.
It feels like during this generation, most developer's attempts at trying to redefine the "JRPG" were met with derision, confusion, and dismay... especially here in the west, where for 6 years every journo discounted any rpgs that weren't Mass Effect.
Meanwhile, hyper-traditional design was eaten up in the east (see sales of "Tales" series).

It feels like the JRPG is in a lose-lose situation.

The West (at least western journos) don't really want them... and they especially don't want any progressive design. They're clamoring for the feeling they got when playing through the PSX FF's, not the actual experience of grinding, NPCs, etc. (Oddly enough, the same fucking idiots will espouse each and every MMO despite their simplistic and redundant design)

The East? Fuck, I don't know. Sometimes it feels like Japan has just given up, in general.

[Despatche]

"JRPG" has nothing to do with Japanese RPGs and has everything to do with the situation you outline. The term refers to an incredibly specific genre, which is where the derision and confusion is coming from.

That "feeling" is just these people as kids reacting to grinding and NPCs and whatever. After that point you've either got "nostalgia" or come in with a complete refusal to ever look at the game again. I guess they flock to MMOs because they're somehow able to remove all the "bullshit" (which could be anything) they claim to hate so much, even when a particular MMO still has it. Also, there are few "JRPG"-styled MMOs other than things like PSO and SMT Imagine (and the latter barely counts), which might have something to do with it.

It's so hard to talk about any of this because it's all so vague and nonsensical. That clip you posted is a great example, those comments make me far more uncomfortable than the actual clip, which doesn't even manage to make me feel bad.

[kid aphex]

If that's the case Japanese kids must be seriously fucked up.

You have no idea. I find these kids over here bewildering in their tastes, hobbies, and what they do when they think no ones looking. I've had a good chance lately to meet and hang-out with some in taking my boy to different playgrounds, shopping mall arcades, and community centers. Any yes - the high school kids are still frequenting these places.

Start a thread, I'd love to hear about it (and Japan, in general)

[moozooh]

"JRPG" has nothing to do with Japanese RPGs and has everything to do with the situation you outline. The term refers to an incredibly specific genre, which is where the derision and confusion is coming from.

[...]

It's so hard to talk about any of this because it's all so vague and nonsensical.

So which one is it, vague or incredibly specific? Does an acronym standing for "Japanese RPG" have nothing to do with Japanese RPGs?