Playing for score sucks

[Hagane]

Yeah, having a system to accurately gauge a player's skill is inherently a bad thing.

Icy sometimes has good points (such as his RPG article, if you can stomach his awful writing style and can wade through all his other terrible arguments), but even though he poses as a HARDCORE GAMERRRR he actually sucks at games so more often than not he doesn't understand what he's talking about and we end up with gems such as this one.

One has to do no more than to read his hilarious reviews to see that he has very little knowledge about games, so one understands why he had to resort to stealing stuff from actual players.

[ciox]

I found it a pretty entertaining read but basically disagree just like everyone else, when you're playing a game and clear it with an average score but everyone else has 7.000.000 points it can be a large wake up call to start playing the game properly, seeing people spam bosses to death in Psyvariar makes me throw up.
I guess in an ideal world the best way to play a game would be instantly transparent to the player, but the progression from unskilled to skilled is also loads of fun.

Also disagree with the stuff on Ikaruga, chaining makes the player (ok, SWY at least) do incredibly complex maneuvers which makes a superplay more fun to watch than one where everything is spammed to death without any order.

[sven666]

"reading icycalms ramblings sucks and those who defend it are aspies"

now THAT i might read..

[Blackbird]

Playing for score is an idea I will entertain once I'm actually good enough to clear games =P. Most bullet hell games are too difficult for me to clear at my present skill level, though, so there's really no point in scoring (unless it's fun). I just end up splitting my concentration and dying harder. Just gotta keep working at it, I'm getting to the point where I can manage a few of the easier 1CCs, just gotta build up to harder stuff. Been in kind of a slump lately.

[Giest118]

The only thing I agree with is that sometimes, scoring mechanics do get a little bit ridiculous, such as DDP DFK's invisible multiplier that it never tells you about. :V

But a lot of the time, scoring does make the game way more fun. Dangun Feveron isn't nearly as entertaining when you ignore all the flying disco dancers, for example.

[zinger]

So much fury! Fun! Though I was hoping for some more civilised talk on the subject.

Play for score is a good way for the player to adjust the difficulty level. The more risks you take, the higher reward you get, and because of this, you can often make early parts of the game more exciting.

Good start. I agree that it does have such a feature in games that already have implemented score systems. However, the question that intrigued me was what would happen if the games were designed without score systems in mind from the beginning. If they set out to deliver the same tension and action and the only reward you got from it was the action experience in itself as well as the sense of progressing through an adventure. No juggling medals on unicycles meanwhile collecting as many sandals and breads as possible in order to turn them into Pogs and reflect them onto a bunch of pigs which you then have to milk until the end of time. If the score mechanics in shooters instead were replaced with stuff that made as much sense as the augmentations in Super Metroid.

So, it's not a matter of if collecting sandals can be fun or not, but rather that it mustn't interfere with the more important aspects of the game.

Last time I played Super Metroid I spent most of the time hunting boxes with a missile picture on them (that I never needed to use for anything) just to see the number in the end get bigger.

That ends the silly Super Metroid analogy, right there.

Yes, because we all know that the best thing about Super Metroid was its score system! That was what all the rave was about in the 90's! Not the presentation, not the creepy atmosphere, not the sense of gradually being able to explore more and more of the world with the help of the acquisition of new tools and abilities. I.e. rewards that made sense within the game itself (as opposed to a bunch of numbers). No, it was all about clearing the game fast with a bizarre amount of boxes with missile pictures on them in stock. What a blast that was! Seriously? :)

...whilst regarding as weaklings mediocre scorers, like me for instance, regardless of the fact that I regularly surf 10-foot slabs and drop 20-foot cliffs on snowboards and mountain bikes, and could probably smash the faces of an entire fucking scoreboard of aspies at the same time.

lol

edit: by the way zinger, ruining enemy craft's paint = higher enemy air force maintenance costs = angry enemy leadership = more rank = more difficulty = more performance = more points = better player than casual survivalist who's careful to not upset the enemy leader too much.

If it helps to illustrate, you may regard 20mil+ Garegga scorers as the kind of pilots who were fucking the enemy leader's wife and daughter in regular threesomes on the side in addition to ruining all his expensive military shit and stealing all his medals. :cool:

edit 2: go for that Metal Black clear first. :smile:

Haha, yeah. I've also tried my best to justify Garegga's weird mechanics. Nice try. :) Still love the game though. That Metal Black clear might come one day, I used to be crazy obsessed with it (never really cared for its numbers though, I don't like the font).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Though I was hoping for some more civilised talk on the subject.

You posted an excerpt from an idiotic book written by an egotistical (if not outright narcissistic) sociopath who refers to anyone who disagrees with him as 'aspies', and you're lamenting a lack of 'civilised talk'? Really?

I'll ask this as nicely as I can: are you completely fucking stupid? Did your parents regularly drop bricks on your head as a baby or something?

[Lance Boyle]

Yes, because we all know that the best thing about Super Metroid was its score system!

That isn't what anyone said.

This is why it is impossible to have a "civilised talk" with Insomnia drones.

[Blackbird]

Perhaps Zinger was unaware that icycalm has a terrible reputation within this community? It's not something one would really know unless you've been around the shmup farm for a while.

[Lance Boyle]

Perhaps Zinger was unaware that icycalm has a terrible reputation throughout the entire Internet?

I'm sure he was well aware.

[BIL]

That Metal Black clear might come one day, I used to be crazy obsessed with it (never really cared for its numbers though, I don't like the font).

Oh, MB's numbers are no good in the first place, since they're tied to an extremely luck-based bonus game that can screw over even the most skillful and aggressive player. You need to evaluate more than just the font when deciding which game's numbers to pay attention to! I recommend Sexy Parodius or R-Type Delta if you want traditional hori action with decent scoring mechanics.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Perhaps Zinger was unaware that icycalm has a terrible reputation within this community? It's not something one would really know unless you've been around the shmup farm for a while.

It took me like 5 minutes with Google to figure this out after reading this thread, so that's no excuse. Besides, if you expect someone whose writing combines condescension with sheer incompetence not to have a shit reputation, you're just deluding yourself.

[Erppo]

Holy shit, that sort of writing was put into a real printed book?

In fact, he has several.

Yes, something I've also mentioned in one of the essays, but it bears repeating here as well. No one besides me currently realizes the vast impact that these books (plus the philosophical ones) are about to have on the course of the intellectual endeavors of mankind, but I'll try to give you a rough idea. Basically, within the next few years:

1. The four main videogame books will be taught as the gospel in all university Game Studies programs in the world. Those professors who for whatever reason fail to use them, and prefer to use, oh I don't know, Jesper Juul's or that Bogost moron's or Sirlin's lol, or whoever else's books instead, will find themselves being continually challenged and ridiculed by their own students (and especially the smarter ones), who will have found out about me from the internet and also told all their friends (something which, by the way, has already happened in at least one instance, which I linked somewhere in the reaction thread but can't seem to find it at the moment).

2. In addition to the above, the Genealogy will become the number 1 text in all kinds of art studies. Film, painting, music, you name it; the Genealogy will become mandatory reading in all kinds of art theory and art history courses once the old guard has gone through its inevitable denial phase -- and perhaps being phased out themselves.

3. Orgy of the Will will become the number 1 text in all university philosophy programs, overshadowing everything, even Zarathustra (quite against my wishes, this last development, but it can't be helped).

4. And in addition to that, my books on Nietzsche and Baudrillard will become the number 1 scholarly/interpretative works on these two philosophers in any university philosophy program that involves them (and all of them should involve them).

5. And in addition to all the above, Orgy of the Will will have a tremendous impact on practically all the natural sciences, the humanities, politics, etc. To give some examples from the natural sciences, consider that there are still no physicists who understand the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics, which I can explain in a couple of paragraphs. Or take medical professionals, who, when asked for their opinion on the matter, reply that immortality appears like an eventually achievable goal. Or take physicists again, with their "singularities", "double arrows of time" and other such idiocies. Not to mention psychoanalysis! which still doesn't realize that its number 1 concern should be the fight against ressentiment, and so on and so forth.

[zinger]

That Metal Black clear might come one day, I used to be crazy obsessed with it (never really cared for its numbers though, I don't like the font).

Oh, MB's numbers are no good in the first place, since they're tied to an extremely luck-based bonus game that can screw over even the most skillful and aggressive player. You need to evaluate more than just the font when deciding which game's numbers to pay attention to! I recommend Sexy Parodius or R-Type Delta if you want traditional hori action with decent scoring mechanics.

I'm perfectly aware of how little sense those mini-game intermissions make. But because the bonus stages so amazingly beautifully designed in terms of aesthetics they're enjoyable every time regardless. The font thing was a joke played on my preferences on the subject of scoring in shooting games.

[BIL]

The font thing was a joke played on my preferences on the subject of scoring in shooting games.

I know. My font thing was a joke on your preferences too. :p

(I'm sure you don't actually believe a game enthusiast striving for good scores necessarily has a literal obsession with numbers...?)

[Illyrian]

So Icycalm is some random douchebag from times past?

Is he the guy who wrote the article about arcade culture where he basically goes to an arcade in japan and jerks of to japanese people looping shmups or something?

[MathU]

Another shitty thread for a deranged sociopath to inflate his ego even more. You all should be aware that he actively keeps track of threads all over the internet wherever his name is mentioned, with special attention to this forum. Giving him the attention he craves only exacerbates his mental condition. I will try not to post in this thread again.


It always upsets me when people think atmosphere is all that defines Super Metroid. Sure, it's great for a few playthroughs, but that's not what keeps people coming back to it. Super Metroid has fantastic replayability because its non-linearity and fluid physics make it an extremely enjoyable game to speed run. THAT is Super Metroid's scoring system: to see just how quickly you can beat the game.

[DMC]

From which book is this essay? I guees it's either Videogame Culture: Volume I or II?

However, the question that intrigued me was what would happen if the games were designed without score systems in mind from the beginning. If they set out to deliver the same tension and action and the only reward you got from it was the action experience in itself as well as the sense of progressing through an adventure

I wonder how you induce tension and action for the early parts of the games, but without a scoring/rank-system?

[power UP]

The article is great.
I mean I never was hardcore into playing for score, or doing things to pose on a forum how hardcore I am. (I hope)
Like many articles by icycalm, this one also again confrimes and expands on a lot of hunches and thoughts I had myself. Thanks icy.

[moozooh]

This thread is positively hilarious!

...whilst regarding as weaklings mediocre scorers, like me for instance, regardless of the fact that I regularly surf 10-foot slabs and drop 20-foot cliffs on snowboards and mountain bikes, and could probably smash the faces of an entire fucking scoreboard of aspies at the same time.

Scoring systems are inherently bad because you can't smash them in the face and beat them that way.

(icy was sad to discover this doesn't work in relationships with females either, so he denounces that as well)

I laughed so hard at this. Poor Icy, I wonder why he's never written an article—let alone a book—about surfing or snowboarding! Or about beating people up! Quite a way to rationalize sucking at a genre you reportedly like.

even though he poses as a HARDCORE GAMERRRR he actually sucks at games so more often than not he doesn't understand what he's talking about and we end up with gems such as this one.

One has to do no more than to read his hilarious reviews to see that he has very little knowledge about games, so one understands why he had to resort to stealing stuff from actual players.

Exactly, sir. It is the reason neither Icy nor the OP should be taken seriously.

Re: Metroid (lovely misspelled as "Metriod" in the book excerpt), its replayability is largely based on time and item counters at the end, which are the equivalent of a score counter in arcade games. Visit Metroid fan communities and ask there if you don't believe me. Plus what Erppo said.

Re: SWY's advice, for many games it will never work. Trying to 1CC Garegga without actively scoring in it is ridiculous and probably harder than the otherwise. Trying to 1CC Ikaruga or Radiant Silvergun without scoring is similarly a futile task, particularly because you need these extra lives and weapon levels to clear them. Mushi and Futari Ultra, Pink Sweets? Yeah... no. High-exponent scoring systems like that of Takumi games or DDP DFK will make your scrub clear score beatable by mid-stage 2 at the latest, rendering it pointless not to score. Psyvariar series, Touhou series, Futari BL Original/Maniac pretty much entirely depend on scoring for their challenge vessel, if you don't try to score there you'll never understand what is fun about them.

[BIL]

I wasn't aware icycalm had graduated to the level of mediocre scorer, actually. That'd be quite an improvement.

[CloudyMusic]

In fact, he has several.

[excerpt]

Oh, so he's god's gift to humanity. We're lucky he has bestowed us with his enlightenment.

Looking forward to the complete revolution of the fields of art, music, philosophy, physics, and politics, though. That'll be neat.

Backing slowly out of this thread now.

[BIL]

Yeah, good idea. icy might totally beat us all up. With his snowboard. While catching a rad wave.

[Bananamatic]

regardless of the fact that I regularly surf 10-foot slabs and drop 20-foot cliffs on snowboards and mountain bikes

I think he got regularly dropped somewhere else and it's clearly visible

[zinger]

From which book is this essay? I guees it's either Videogame Culture: Volume I or II?
It's from the first book. Part II isn't out yet.

However, the question that intrigued me was what would happen if the games were designed without score systems in mind from the beginning. If they set out to deliver the same tension and action and the only reward you got from it was the action experience in itself as well as the sense of progressing through an adventure

I wonder how you induce tension and action for the early parts of the games, but without a scoring/rank-system?

Have you played Capcom's platformer Black Dragon? It has certain random elements which make the early stages feel fresh and fun even after countless plays. There's no rank at all as far as I know, and I never cared about the scoring system, yet I enjoyed every minute of this game because of how it always kept me on my toes.

Since people obviously aren't reading through the entire article, here's another excerpt (page 358):

But this has been a rather lengthy detour from our analysis of the scoring debacle (though a necessary one, since the cyber"athletics" fagotry is nothing other than the culmination, the ultimate conclusion of the scoring fagotry), so let's get back to that.

And it is precisely at this point, having concluded our analysis of aspie psychology, that we can best turn to and understand its effects on the games these people prefer, demand, and praise. The entire issue unravels once one realizes that all games have "scoring" systems of one sort or another, EVEN THOSE THAT DO NOT APPEAR TO DO SO. (If this statement seems absurd to you go and re-read the "RPG conundrum" essay, paying particular attention to what I explain about stats, and then come back here.) When you punch or kick an enemy in something like Another World, for instance, or some other of those countless European home computer games of the 8- and 16-bit eras which don't feature scoring (essentially the only aspect of those games in which they trump their Japanese counterparts), the game is nevertheless scoring your performance regardless of whether or not you actually see a score. And if you manage to score high enough, your reward is not a pathetic little number on the screen, but the death of the enemy, and the opening-up to you of the path he had been blocking. And it's the same with every videogame ever made, 2D or 3D, action or turn-based, all of which essentially feature scoring systems, systems which in technical videogame parlance are commonly known as "MECHANICS". What the aspies call a "scoring system", therefore, is nothing other than a mere subset of a game's REAL scoring system – its mechanics – an additional set of mechanics that translates your motions into a number, that quantifies your motions, not for any in-game purpose (that of setting obstacles in your path and thus regulating your progress in the gameworld, as the rest of the mechanics), but for and out-of-game purpose: the comparison with other players. For the score in "proper" scoring systems (i.e. stuff like arcade games; not the orbs, say, in Devil May Cry) is never meant for in-game use, as the "score" of the main mechanics is; on the contrary, it's given to you at the very end, precisely at the point when you are about to leave the game; essentially once you've already left. But for a game to be immersive, i.e. as engrossing and involving as possible, ideally nothing should ever leave it. The more stuff leaves the game THE WORSE THE GAME IS. In the ultimate game nothing would ever leave, not even the player.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

for someone who thinks scores suck, didn't he try to falsificare a bunch of them?


And scoring can suck in some games and be awesome in others.

[BIL]

snip

Yes, it's certainly news to me that no-damage clearing The Super Shinobi is a more impressive performance than getting a high score in it, despite the number on the screen being lower. I'm being sarcastic of course, but then again JoshF was peddling the same revelations here a while ago and I honestly couldn't tell if he was being serious or not.

If I tell you I'm aiming for a 400lbs squat at 180lbs bodyweight before the year is out, zinger, would you assume I'm bothered that a guy who weighs 400lbs has an insanely higher max number than me? I'm trying to determine if you're honestly assuming we're all retarded here - I assumed you were just being cute...?

[zinger]

Page 359:

...

These so-called "scoring mechanics", therefore, these "traces" of what happened in the game – and this will be very difficult for many people to grasp, especially the poor deluded "scorers" – are ultimately all of them bad mechanics. For if the aim of the main mechanics is to increase pleasure, which is to say in-game pleasure, the aim of the "scoring" mechanics is to increase out-of-game pleasure, by serving as mechanics in the real game the aspies are playing: the "king of the scoreboard" game. These scoring mechanics are therefore systematically siphoning off pleasure from inside the gameworld and redirecting it outside, thereby resulting, in all cases and with no exceptions, in worse games.

[Paradigm]

Horseshit.

[BIL]

...

lol