I've been doing compositions for a couple of games and film, most of which have either been atmospheric or driven energetic. A friend of mine has asked me to do music for a Shmup project she's working on, and I jumped on it. I'm always looking for more places to practice, as I never really took composing or music theory classes, which means experience is my only method of learning.
Anyways, this has proven extremely difficult for me, as unlike most other styles of games, I don't really know what the standard tools for the trade are for shmup music. The things I've made so far have been incredibly repetitive and lacking in the energy department.
http://soundcloud.com/jtjolsen/time-dragon-groove-test
I've been told by a friend that it needs more drum changes, which I'm trying to work with, but I've found it hard to really get a sleek drum sound out of Ableton's defaults. I also can't decide if I want to scrap this song and start anew or try to salvage this, as I feel that a lot of the sound spectrum is being used up already.
I guess what my question is is...what makes a good Shmup song, and is there any plugins, DAWs, or other that you'd recommend in particular? Also, if you were going to make a shmup song that revolved around a dragon in space, what kind of sound would you go for?
I know it's asking a lot, but I'm just...clueless as to how Shmups work, having only played Jamestown.
Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
Some rambling thoughts from a non-composer, just a music and STG fan:
Good music is good music, isn't it? Most traditional shooters were (or are) developed for platforms with limited resources, but with today's machines (assuming that is your target) you should be able to experiment a bit more. There isn't really a canon of shmup music, although some good examples of shmup style soundtracks are offered by Konami, especially in classic titles such as Space Manbow, Xexex, Salamander / Salamander 2, Twinbee titles, and so on. On the other hand early Capcom arcade music works very well, with something almost like an organ sound in some of their games (Section Z, Rush & Crash - which has a different name domestically, Top Secret aka Bionic Commando, Side Arms, and Gun.Smoke (especially the third stage) have an early cinematic feel to them. Another totally different game (more modern) which isn't often cited for great music is Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons, which has some tinny-sounding undersampled stuff with very short intro loops - but it's very effective at the beginning of the game (all they are doing is switching from the intro to the main loop), so listen to that if you want to see that you're not in a hopeless situation. Of course, music that works in shooting games can work in some other types of games, and there are games from other genres that have music that works very well for shooting games.
These are all pretty repetitive if overdone, but having a nice short loop is essentially the standard fare of classic arcade games. If at all possible get ahold of MAME and try out some games to listen to the music. You'll note that quite often it's a driving force for the game, even if it's obviously not tied into the actual goings-on much at all (other than it starts and stops with level changes; Gun.Smoke does have a mini cutscene at the beginning of Stage 2 to punctuate it). This implies that, aside from your decisions in writing the actual music, there's also the larger question of the sound design, which you'll want to discuss with the game maker. Having a great thirty-second loop repeated endlessly in a game with a very slow difficulty ramp and no level changes will not help the player enjoy the music. On the other hand, it also depends on how much time you're willing to invest...but I think that if you have something like levels, you'll be able to invest more time in making more compelling short loops for diversity. If the game has an endless level, you then might want to just spend some time on having a more varied track, or maybe splice up some stuff for dynamic music (if that's possible). Try to get support in the game for software fade-out of the music, and don't worry much about having the music sync with the level transition.
Good music is good music, isn't it? Most traditional shooters were (or are) developed for platforms with limited resources, but with today's machines (assuming that is your target) you should be able to experiment a bit more. There isn't really a canon of shmup music, although some good examples of shmup style soundtracks are offered by Konami, especially in classic titles such as Space Manbow, Xexex, Salamander / Salamander 2, Twinbee titles, and so on. On the other hand early Capcom arcade music works very well, with something almost like an organ sound in some of their games (Section Z, Rush & Crash - which has a different name domestically, Top Secret aka Bionic Commando, Side Arms, and Gun.Smoke (especially the third stage) have an early cinematic feel to them. Another totally different game (more modern) which isn't often cited for great music is Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons, which has some tinny-sounding undersampled stuff with very short intro loops - but it's very effective at the beginning of the game (all they are doing is switching from the intro to the main loop), so listen to that if you want to see that you're not in a hopeless situation. Of course, music that works in shooting games can work in some other types of games, and there are games from other genres that have music that works very well for shooting games.
These are all pretty repetitive if overdone, but having a nice short loop is essentially the standard fare of classic arcade games. If at all possible get ahold of MAME and try out some games to listen to the music. You'll note that quite often it's a driving force for the game, even if it's obviously not tied into the actual goings-on much at all (other than it starts and stops with level changes; Gun.Smoke does have a mini cutscene at the beginning of Stage 2 to punctuate it). This implies that, aside from your decisions in writing the actual music, there's also the larger question of the sound design, which you'll want to discuss with the game maker. Having a great thirty-second loop repeated endlessly in a game with a very slow difficulty ramp and no level changes will not help the player enjoy the music. On the other hand, it also depends on how much time you're willing to invest...but I think that if you have something like levels, you'll be able to invest more time in making more compelling short loops for diversity. If the game has an endless level, you then might want to just spend some time on having a more varied track, or maybe splice up some stuff for dynamic music (if that's possible). Try to get support in the game for software fade-out of the music, and don't worry much about having the music sync with the level transition.
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
i can't listen to these samples at work but i can tell you a thing a two in advance before i do at home:
first of all you should definitely listen to some shmup soundtracks. youtube has a ton of these. but i would especially recommend watching these with the video of the game. maybe some replays and stuff. this will not only show you how the pace of the soundtrack is connected to the game and also how the rest of the sounds fit in as these can pretty much make or break the experience.
in most shmups there is always a quite solid change when the mid-boss appears. you can use that moment to completely break the repetitiveness of the track. you should add a nice breakdown afterwards before the main loop kicks in so it will be more exciting for the player.
ableton is quite a nice tool for stuff like this. you should make one horizontal "scene" with a few clips consisting of the drums and all the instruments. then you can copy the whole scene and paste it several times below so you have a few scenes which are identical. now leave the first scene as it is and in the next few ones, change the notes, alter the melody, break the drums and go crazy. afterwards you can launch the scenes with the play sings on the right and jungle with them and see if they fit to each other. you then just press record with the shmup playing in the back and according to what's going on, launch the scene that you think might suit the according part the most. you then edit the arrangement few so that the transitions are more fluid.
i associate dragons with rather medieval sounding stuff. some orchestra samples would be nice and some pompous sounds on the drums. on the other hand space is a lot of detuned pads, mostly synths and a lot of delay and reverb. might be nice to combine those both. depends if the overall style of the game is more mythical or techy. if the latter you might look at panzer dragoon orta and yars revenge for some inspiration.
i'll listen to the samples at home and will be able to give you some objective critique
first of all you should definitely listen to some shmup soundtracks. youtube has a ton of these. but i would especially recommend watching these with the video of the game. maybe some replays and stuff. this will not only show you how the pace of the soundtrack is connected to the game and also how the rest of the sounds fit in as these can pretty much make or break the experience.
in most shmups there is always a quite solid change when the mid-boss appears. you can use that moment to completely break the repetitiveness of the track. you should add a nice breakdown afterwards before the main loop kicks in so it will be more exciting for the player.
ableton is quite a nice tool for stuff like this. you should make one horizontal "scene" with a few clips consisting of the drums and all the instruments. then you can copy the whole scene and paste it several times below so you have a few scenes which are identical. now leave the first scene as it is and in the next few ones, change the notes, alter the melody, break the drums and go crazy. afterwards you can launch the scenes with the play sings on the right and jungle with them and see if they fit to each other. you then just press record with the shmup playing in the back and according to what's going on, launch the scene that you think might suit the according part the most. you then edit the arrangement few so that the transitions are more fluid.
i associate dragons with rather medieval sounding stuff. some orchestra samples would be nice and some pompous sounds on the drums. on the other hand space is a lot of detuned pads, mostly synths and a lot of delay and reverb. might be nice to combine those both. depends if the overall style of the game is more mythical or techy. if the latter you might look at panzer dragoon orta and yars revenge for some inspiration.
i'll listen to the samples at home and will be able to give you some objective critique
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
Queso here's what's up: The sweet thing about shmups is that you have full control over the experience. You have the power to give your players a linear, focused experience that'll leave their balls quivering for years. You can't do that in no Sonic. Alfred Chicken got nothin' on that mojo.
See here superstar, music in other games is a detached experience. Ya can't do much to reinforce the action because you don't know what brostar's gonna do. You might swell up for the helicopter entrance but he's back three screens farming kills and it makes you look like an idiot. But when you're ridin' in with shmups, it's like grabbin' reality itself by the short hairs. You control where enemies spawn. You control when. You know where the tough spots are, and you know where the popcorn be at. It's all in your grasp, and you better believe it tastes goooood.
Manabu Namiki's my main man. Try to deny that and you'll wake up in a ditch. Yeah, compositionally, all he's doin' is riding waves, but it's in the orchestration that he shines. Give it up for Battle Garegga. Take in all those vibrations. Notice how the music syncs up to the flow of the level. Notice how, upon each change of musical phrase, a new element of the level comes to the player's attention. Believe me, it's subtle. It's not like big swells theatre and it doesn't have to be. But man, once I noticed it, it brought a tear to my eye, and later a tattoo of Namiki's face to my thigh.
Finally, given that you have dragons juxtaposed with the cold vacuums of space and time, there's only one logical choice for the genre, and that is 90s dance. My boy Koshiro paved that road for you, so it ain't no thing for you to thrust in there and kick it to the Jones.
See here superstar, music in other games is a detached experience. Ya can't do much to reinforce the action because you don't know what brostar's gonna do. You might swell up for the helicopter entrance but he's back three screens farming kills and it makes you look like an idiot. But when you're ridin' in with shmups, it's like grabbin' reality itself by the short hairs. You control where enemies spawn. You control when. You know where the tough spots are, and you know where the popcorn be at. It's all in your grasp, and you better believe it tastes goooood.
Manabu Namiki's my main man. Try to deny that and you'll wake up in a ditch. Yeah, compositionally, all he's doin' is riding waves, but it's in the orchestration that he shines. Give it up for Battle Garegga. Take in all those vibrations. Notice how the music syncs up to the flow of the level. Notice how, upon each change of musical phrase, a new element of the level comes to the player's attention. Believe me, it's subtle. It's not like big swells theatre and it doesn't have to be. But man, once I noticed it, it brought a tear to my eye, and later a tattoo of Namiki's face to my thigh.
Finally, given that you have dragons juxtaposed with the cold vacuums of space and time, there's only one logical choice for the genre, and that is 90s dance. My boy Koshiro paved that road for you, so it ain't no thing for you to thrust in there and kick it to the Jones.
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
um yeah whatever.
so i listened to your sample and it's not bad. i would definitely dampen that bass sound as it sounds a bit to gritty and exhausting. the rhythm is alright but yeah, the bass drum is a bit ghastly and has no punch at all. the arpeggiated sound is also a bit to noisy and definitely needs some form of alteration, either changing the pattern of the arpeggio or the scale.
actually as a base i would leave it as it is but now take a few lead and pad sounds and try to play some notes over this. just pure freestyle. record everything you play. afterwards just take out the parts that you like the most.
so i listened to your sample and it's not bad. i would definitely dampen that bass sound as it sounds a bit to gritty and exhausting. the rhythm is alright but yeah, the bass drum is a bit ghastly and has no punch at all. the arpeggiated sound is also a bit to noisy and definitely needs some form of alteration, either changing the pattern of the arpeggio or the scale.
actually as a base i would leave it as it is but now take a few lead and pad sounds and try to play some notes over this. just pure freestyle. record everything you play. afterwards just take out the parts that you like the most.
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
You may want to check out Gryzor87's (Locomalito's composer) manual for pxtone (Pixel of Cave Story fame's freeware music utility). Lots of useful information there, whether you plan to use the utility or not.
http://www.gr87.com/?page_id=64
http://www.gr87.com/?page_id=64
The freaks are rising through the floor.
Recommended XBLIG shmups.
Top 20 Doujin Shmups of ALL TIME.
Recommended XBLIG shmups.
Top 20 Doujin Shmups of ALL TIME.
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DJ Incompetent
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- Location: Murda Mitten, USA
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
That Time Dragon track. As it is now, I would use the first half for say a main/options menu. I'd ditch the second half. That tinny loop is kinda annoying. Maybe distort it or muffle it to save the second half of the track?
Noah! is right on Manabu Namiki. http://world-of-arcades.net/R8zing/Mana ... Namiki.htm Have a look-see of his history and at least seek out soundtracks or replays of Ketsui, Battle Garegga, Mushihimisama Futari, ESPGaluda, and Armed Police Batrider for examples on doing it right before going to work.
Some OSTs worth a listen that aren't by him are Gradius V, DoDonPachi, and G Darius.
If you want more examples, seek out Zuntata and Konami Kukeiha Club. They are sound teams for Taito and Konami's games.
A good game soundtrack:
-Seems to have stage designs built around a finished track, like what matrigs says about a solid change in the track style when a midboss appears. (see stage 1 Sorcerer Striker)
-Matches the tension of difficulty in a stage. I encourage for harder stages to guide the player into a "trance" where zoning-out is a method for high level players to perform well. (see stage 5 Mushihimesama Futari)
-Has a different dedicated end-boss theme, the "drop" of the track starting the second the player and/or the enemy is allowed to shoot. A memorable jingle as the boss is appearing can also be very important if done correctly (see DoDonPachi)
If you want to go off the beaten path, I've experimented with dubbing new soundtracks to old videogames. Maybe you can find something inspiring in there. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20959 Gradius Rebirth would be a good place to start.
You don't have to explicitly craft "shmup music." You can fit anything from anywhere into a STG. How tracks are synced to the action is most important.
When I read "dragon in space" I think of 70s Funk. I demand 70s funk!
Noah! is right on Manabu Namiki. http://world-of-arcades.net/R8zing/Mana ... Namiki.htm Have a look-see of his history and at least seek out soundtracks or replays of Ketsui, Battle Garegga, Mushihimisama Futari, ESPGaluda, and Armed Police Batrider for examples on doing it right before going to work.
Some OSTs worth a listen that aren't by him are Gradius V, DoDonPachi, and G Darius.
If you want more examples, seek out Zuntata and Konami Kukeiha Club. They are sound teams for Taito and Konami's games.
A good game soundtrack:
-Seems to have stage designs built around a finished track, like what matrigs says about a solid change in the track style when a midboss appears. (see stage 1 Sorcerer Striker)
-Matches the tension of difficulty in a stage. I encourage for harder stages to guide the player into a "trance" where zoning-out is a method for high level players to perform well. (see stage 5 Mushihimesama Futari)
-Has a different dedicated end-boss theme, the "drop" of the track starting the second the player and/or the enemy is allowed to shoot. A memorable jingle as the boss is appearing can also be very important if done correctly (see DoDonPachi)
If you want to go off the beaten path, I've experimented with dubbing new soundtracks to old videogames. Maybe you can find something inspiring in there. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20959 Gradius Rebirth would be a good place to start.
You don't have to explicitly craft "shmup music." You can fit anything from anywhere into a STG. How tracks are synced to the action is most important.
When I read "dragon in space" I think of 70s Funk. I demand 70s funk!
@shmups | superplaymixes Reworked Game Soundtracks | livestreamin'
______________________
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
My quick 2 cents. Just my personal opinion of course, but if you want examples of shmups with great soundtracks I would recommend the following: Mushihimesama, Armed Police Batrider, DoDonPachi, EspGaluda II, Ketsui, Deathsmiles, Akai Katana. (Mostly Cave games I know but hey)
Those are some of the best examples that I can think of, off the top of my head at least anyway. Maybe check gameplay videos of them on YouTube to give you an idea of what works.
Those are some of the best examples that I can think of, off the top of my head at least anyway. Maybe check gameplay videos of them on YouTube to give you an idea of what works.
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
And my 0.1 euros... but your track would be a reasonably fine character select track ... it screams "come on, press button 1 already".
I personally enjoy more a Boss music starting with a 6-7 seconds jingle. You need 3 seconds to grab attention of someone, let him have 2 seconds to place his ship and 1/2 to start building up firepower/switching gear. (even after a big WARNING ... i like it, and gives time to place the boss in the game as well).
for the rest, i like to be surprised but most important, if the game has a rhythm of button press to get optimum fire output without smashing like crazy then i want the tempo to be a multiple of that, so that i can push in rhythm on my joystick.
I personally enjoy more a Boss music starting with a 6-7 seconds jingle. You need 3 seconds to grab attention of someone, let him have 2 seconds to place his ship and 1/2 to start building up firepower/switching gear. (even after a big WARNING ... i like it, and gives time to place the boss in the game as well).
for the rest, i like to be surprised but most important, if the game has a rhythm of button press to get optimum fire output without smashing like crazy then i want the tempo to be a multiple of that, so that i can push in rhythm on my joystick.
st5ex0boss/st5ex0boss.cpp, st5ex0boss/st5ex0b_appear.cpp, st5ex0boss/st5ex0b_disp.cpp, st5ex0boss/st5ex0b_move.cpp, st5ex0boss/st5ex0b_anime.cpp, st5ex0boss/st5ex0b_check.cpp
And there shall be TTLB... <3 Muwohohoho
And there shall be TTLB... <3 Muwohohoho
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
90's dance? That reminds me, nobody has made a psytrance themed shmup.
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casualcoder
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:35 am
- Location: West Coast, Canada
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
Ive been a music producer for 17 years (time flies) and also run a sample and loop company. We have some new drum packs about to come out and I can hook you up with some promo material and maybe some advice. PM me so we don't clog the boards 
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Herr Schatten
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- Contact:
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
I agree with this. I can also imagine the track as a looping boss music, but there needs to be done something about that tinny loop. It's way to dominant.DJ Incompetent wrote:That Time Dragon track. As it is now, I would use the first half for say a main/options menu. I'd ditch the second half. That tinny loop is kinda annoying. Maybe distort it or muffle it to save the second half of the track?
Re: Looking for help with composing/sound for a Shmup (stuck)
We finished our game, and I made a completely new song using one or two Logic loops (replacing the default instrument with harpsichord) as the inspiration for the entirety of it. Only reason I had to start with a loop is I had no clue how to arrange for a harpsichord, so I threw in tons of loops to test until I found one that worked PERFECTLY, then arranged around it.
http://soundcloud.com/jtjolsen/the-time-wizards-secret
This was intended to replace that simple groove I made, but since I didn't have time to pump out a specific boss theme, we kept that junkie old song as the pre-boss music and, instead, made this song loop during the phases of the boss.
http://soundcloud.com/jtjolsen/the-time-wizards-secret
This was intended to replace that simple groove I made, but since I didn't have time to pump out a specific boss theme, we kept that junkie old song as the pre-boss music and, instead, made this song loop during the phases of the boss.