How would you feel about PC releases of Cave games?

[Gus]

Like I said I just want to get good so no, I haven't. Still, I don't see why that would matter. To take a page out of MX7's book by that point you're not really playing the game as it's presented but you're turning it into a social event that just so happens to involve the game.

[BPzeBanshee]

Well now this is sounding like we're talking about Call of Duty here - you know, that FPS game that's only good for parties.

[Illyrian]

No it's not, you just have poor reading comprehension.

Playing CAVE games at home is just as good as playing them in the arcade. Both experiences are different though.

It is a fairly simple point I really shouldn't have to explain.

For the record, I value both experiences equally.

[Skykid]

playing on a PC is kinda gay.

[Icarus]

Like I said I just want to get good so no, I haven't. Still, I don't see why that would matter. To take a page out of MX7's book by that point you're not really playing the game as it's presented but you're turning it into a social event that just so happens to involve the game.

Not necessarily. As someone who also enjoys getting good at these games, and as someone who's been a part of the arcade scene for over a decade and a half, I can say that the social aspect of arcade gaming is both motivating and productive, in that you not only have other players to compete with, but also have other players analysing your every move and mistake, and can help you work out the kinks in your game plan. Having a number of brains to increase information processing helps greatly, and the social aspect enables a natural sharing of information, either by casual discussion or by observation.

Sure, you can sit in front of an X360 or PC for ten hours a day and get good by copying someone's replays by rote, but you still have to expend more energy studying your own plays to work out where you're going wrong, and what you could do differently. Having others around you as you play means that there's always someone else doing just that for you.

[Zaarock]

playing on a PC is kinda gay.

Getting good at shmups must be pretty gay then, considering how many PC/keyboard players are at the top of the hi-score boards on DOJ and Ketsui after 1-2 years of playing

Gus has a point with futari ultra though, something that hard is much more playable for most users when they can practice sections with training mode or savestates

[Illyrian]

playing on a PC is kinda gay.

Getting good at shmups must be pretty gay then, considering how many PC/keyboard players are at the top of the hi-score boards on DOJ and Ketsui after 1-2 years of playing

Gus has a point though, something as difficult as futari ultra is more playable for most users when they can practice sections with training mode or savestates

Your face is kinda gay after 1-2 seconds of reading your posts.

Also Icarus summed up what I was vaguely trying to vocalise much better than I ever could.

[Skykid]

playing on a PC is kinda gay.

Getting good at shmups must be pretty gay then

Oh it is. Shmups are gay. The gayest in-fact.

[Giest118]

You guys are all fags. I'm gonna go play a shmup on my PC and like it more than you people like playing them in arcades. This makes me superior since I need less to be happier.

[Illyrian]

You guys are all fags. I'm gonna go play a shmup on my PC and like it more than you people like playing them in arcades. This makes me superior since I need less to be happier.

I'm gonna URA 2-all your mum

[Zaarock]

Oh it is. Shmups are gay. The gayest in-fact.

wow, I've never seen that one before

but yeah, idk why I felt like posting like a troll here when I don't even care about pc ports; better stay away from threads in a downwards spiral like this so I don't develop some attraction for shitposts lol

[Giest118]

You know, as a thought exercise, I wish to see how well shmup arcade purism holds up to scrutiny. What follows is a list of arguments in favor of arcade purism that I've heard and/or that I can come up with, and counterpoints to each of them. If there are any you would like to add for me to tell you why they're dumb, please do so.

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1) The "Arcade Experience" is super awesome and amazing!

So, there's a few components to the arcade experience, and I think the one people are talking about is the one in which people gather around and watch each other play the game and learn from each other and/or laugh at each other's ineptitude, making it a lulzy experience. You might think I can't lessen this. You're wrong. Your argument revolves around the idea that "people gathering around a device on which to play games" is exclusive to the arcades. It isn't. Did you know that you can gather around an XBox or a PC as well and do the exact same shit? Did you know that you can bring an XBox or a PC to public events? Did any of this incredibly obvious shit occur to you? Apparently not. I must be a genius because I'm able to think of this crap while you can't.

Or maybe people like the fact that they have to put quarters into the machine every fucking time they play; that's certainly a part of the true arcade experience. I can see this from a perspective of "this motivates you to do better with every credit," except 1) It doesn't, and 2) Quit wasting your money, and quit telling Cave that you like wasting your money.

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2) Arcades make it so you can't cheat!

This is true. On the other hand, anyone who actually likes this genre won't cheat anyway. Besides which, even if ports exist, you will still HAVE your arcade versions where the score is absolutely legitimate at all times. Pull your head out of your ass.

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3) It's very hard/expensive to develop for multiple platforms!

Yeah, if they re-code everything as though it was natively developed for every platform they port it to. But we've seen emulation work like a badass, in ONE OF CAVE'S OWN PORTS NO LESS (Guwange on X360).

But I guess this depends on the game and whether even emulating it is practical/can be done with good enough accuracy for Cave's standards. Congratulations, this is the only argument that has any validity. Focus on this, arcade purists. You'll seem less like retards, despite the OBVIOUS counterexample I just listed above.

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4) Input lag!

Here's a tip: If your claim is substantiated with evidence that is either fictional or insignificant, you're probably full of shit.

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5) Ports are gay!

Back up your claim.

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6) The arcade version has lower resolution, which is better!

If you go by the premise that the arcade version is superior in every way, then this is necessarily an argument you're making. I hope you see why it's retarded.

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7) Ports have differences such as where slowdown occurs!

Okay. Can you tell me on a case-by-case basis why these differences are bad? Or are they just 'different,' and you hate different because it's outside of your comfort zone?

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8) You're just jealous because you don't have the money to shell out for arcade PCBs or playing the game in the actual arcade!

Or maybe you're just jealous because the way I play games lets me have that kind of money left over with which to do other things, like eat food, hire prostitutes, or afford health care.

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9) These games are MADE for the arcade!

Wow, that's fucking fascinating. It's weird that these games seem to work perfectly well on other platforms, eh?

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10) You're just a social reject who doesn't want to play games in public/make friends! Get some friends!

Wow, you sound like a football jock. Commit suicide.

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11) Save states suck!

Guess what an official port wouldn't have, dipshit?

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12) Arcades are better because you need to get off your ass and walk to them, meaning you get exercise!

Know what's better exercise? Going to the fucking gym.




Yeah, I'm pulling from the bottom of the barrel here. Give me more arguments to shoot down, if you can think of any more.

[emphatic]

Getting good at shmups must be pretty gay then, considering how many PC/keyboard players are at the top of the hi-score boards on DOJ and Ketsui after 1-2 years of playing

Using save states = hard gay. Assholes aren't intended for sex, just like save states never was intended for arcade games.

[PurpBullets]

Assholes aren't intended for sex, just like save states never was intended for arcade games.

Reminds me of peep show
"And I wonder what the Bible's view is on you doing it in the shower and the garden centre and up the bum. I mean, that's alright, is it? That's in the Bible, is it? Or do you think maybe that's NOT in the Bible? "


To each his own.
Some people are not so lucky.

It must be awesome to have an arcade locally, or a cab at home.

but If you cant spend that much on a cab
or spend 2500$ on 1 game.
(when an inevitable port is in the near future for a fraction of the cost)

A console, with your stick / buttons of choice should suffice.

Beggars cant be choosers

If you are playing a shmup, that is whatsup.

Be thankful you have anything.

The beauty is in the eye of the beholder
& It is what you make it.

& if you are trying to cheat on a shmup
You should reevaluate how shmups / 1CC's work.
Might be the wrong genre for ya, if cheating is your game.

(cave has emulation to thank!)
(if it wasnt for guwange on mame os x, I would not know what a shmup is. or care)
(& cave would not have gotten wads of money from me in the longrun for every home port)
(& I know there are alot of other people who have emulation to thank for introducing them to such a neglected genre)
& Its really none of my f-ing business to tell cave what to do.
They are going to do what they believe is best.
Que sera sera


this argument is

[Vyxx]

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7) Ports have differences such as where slowdown occurs!

Okay. Can you tell me on a case-by-case basis why these differences are bad? Or are they just 'different,' and you hate different because it's outside of your comfort zone?

It comes down to the fact that some people want to play the original release. If I spent a lot of time playing an arcade game in *gasp* the arcade, then when it gets ported to a console and I find that the slowdown in the arcade version is either missing, or added to other areas, am I not allowed to be a little disappointed?

I really don't see why you can't grasp that idea. Sure, if people don't care that's awesome! There were plenty of people who sold off their higher priced PCBs for the ports when they came out (like Ketsui) only to be a little upset to find out the game isn't anywhere near the same game. Are their standards higher? Who cares? If you are happy with the ports then more power to you.

[MX7]

Urgh. I think what most people are getting at when they discuss this whole arcade purism thing is that playing a game at home and playing a game in an arcade are very different experiences. Personally I believe that arcade games work better in the arcade, given that they are built from the ground up to work in an arcade. I go into some detail about this further down. I play ports, they're cool. They allow me to practice in the arcade. Save states are also pretty cool for the same reason. I don't think it's particularly 'elite' to advocate the virtues of playing an arcade game in an arcade. It's also pretty stupid to deny that there are fundamental differences between playing an arcade game at home and playing it in the arcade. Would you argue that listing to a record at home and listening to one in a club were exactly the same experience?

[cools]

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9) These games are MADE for the arcade!

Wow, that's fucking fascinating. It's weird that these games seem to work perfectly well on other platforms, eh?

Let's go in reverse. How many shmups developed for PC and console have recieved ports to the arcade, based on demand due to their quality? Very few. You may make the case that there's no need for this to occur, because everyone can play them on the original format quite happily. If this is actually the case then the few that did get ported prove this rule, after all why go to the effort of releasing something as an arcade title if it's not good enough to make money?

That's the root of it. If a game in an arcade is good enough to take credit after credit from a player, time and time again, vastly exceeding what they would spend on a single home game... it's clearly a superior game.

The concern is that if Cave (or whoever) are producing games with the clear intention of a port somewhere down the line they'll possibly be diluting the essential qualities that we look for in what we play.

[Jeneki]

This topic makes an awesome 16-bit battle if you replace the words Arcade with Nintendo, PC with Sega, and console with NEC.

[brentsg]

Yeah, I'm pulling from the bottom of the barrel here. Give me more arguments to shoot down, if you can think of any more.

So you're either new to the forum and you wish to rehash a flame war that's been done here many, many times over the years.. or you're a new username because you've been banned before.

Either way, it's a useless argument. It's a personal preference. It's safe to say that anyone owning the PCBs either has easy access to the ports, or they don't care to. So no, these people aren't going to change their preference because you think they're wrong.

At any rate, the thread seems to be on a path that will be locked soon anyways.

[brentsg]

This topic makes an awesome 16-bit battle if you replace the words Arcade with Nintendo, PC with Sega, and console with NEC.

Coke is so much better than Pepsi that it's not even funny.

[Cagar]

-

[Icarus]

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7) Ports have differences such as where slowdown occurs!

Okay. Can you tell me on a case-by-case basis why these differences are bad? Or are they just 'different,' and you hate different because it's outside of your comfort zone?

It comes down to the fact that some people want to play the original release. If I spent a lot of time playing an arcade game in *gasp* the arcade, then when it gets ported to a console and I find that the slowdown in the arcade version is either missing, or added to other areas, am I not allowed to be a little disappointed?

I really don't see why you can't grasp that idea. Sure, if people don't care that's awesome! There were plenty of people who sold off their higher priced PCBs for the ports when they came out (like Ketsui) only to be a little upset to find out the game isn't anywhere near the same game. Are their standards higher? Who cares? If you are happy with the ports then more power to you.

Agreed. To cite a few examples here…

Slowdown:
The primary issue many players have with lack of slowdown is that it is inaccurate to the arcade version, especially if you play the games seriously for score - techniques that you might be accustomed to on the PCB are unavailable in the ports. Say for example you expect slowdown in a specific area, like the icicles in Mushi Futari 1.5's stage 2 - if a port lacks it, it throws off your strategies, reducing your potential scoring gain. For competitive players, having as close to 100% accuracy as possible means you can compare with other players on equal footing, both in arcades and on ports.
In terms of slowdown, three of the most glaring cases are with the ports of Battle Garegga on Saturn, Mushihimesama on PS2 and Ibara on PS2 - in terms of Garegga, the port is spot on, but the slowdown is turned off by default, and is only accessible, inexplicably, by an unlocked option. Ibara however has no slowdown programmed in whatsoever, which makes stage 3 and stage6 at high rank lethal. I believe that there was a list of the Cave ports with estimated accuracy somewhere, probably on Cave-STG. Mushi has way too much slowdown in places.
Also, wasn't there a massive controversy regarding the NA release of Deathsmiles having no slowdown whatsoever, which was recently resolved - after a lengthy period of time - with a patch?

And to go a bit further…

Stage Layout
One major issue with ports that comes to my mind involves both Ibara and Muchi Muchi Pork!, in that a segment of a stage is altered or missing - in Ibara's case, there's a segment in stage4 where three large tanks appear, but in the port they appear at a later time than in the PCB, meaning you can't use the same hadou technique on them, losing points and large bombs icons in the process; in MMP! there's a set of enemies that appear later than they should do in stage4, throwing off scoring and timing.
If you're not serious about playing for score, then these problems might seem trivial. But I've owned both games in PCB form, and my play revolves around strategies built on the PCBs, so finding large problems such as this is offputting.

Port Revisions
The biggest annoyance I have is when Cave removed the infinite lives trick from the port of Pink Sweets. The ver1.00 on the port is supposed to play like the original arcade version, but without the ability to trigger infinite lives, the game is rendered nearly unplayable for score, especially considering that Arcadia accepts scores using the trick from most of the variants of the PCB version. Sure, you can play the game without it, but you lose the ability to compare yourself with the best when the PCB players have one huge advantage over the port players.

Features
An old argument sure to be revived soon is related to the autofire settings in Mushihimesama's PS2 port, and soon, the HD version. Given that the scores on the PCB version required a variety of autofire settings, it's likely to upset the majority of the serious score players to know that the autofire settings in PS2 and HD versions are limited to just one extra configurable button, rather than the several that appeared on cabs around Japan. As a result, scores on the ports are only equivalent for Original Mode, while Maniac and Ultra will be significantly lower than anything listed in Arcadia.

So yeah, I can understand people enjoying the ports, and that's fine. What's not to like about them? New modes, extra features, training features, remixed music, home comforts. But for the competitive players here, some of the ports released are less than optimal in many areas, especially if you're looking to compare yourself against world players. For the rest of you who play "for fun", the ports are fine.

[Barrakketh]

Like I said I just want to get good so no, I haven't. Still, I don't see why that would matter. To take a page out of MX7's book by that point you're not really playing the game as it's presented but you're turning it into a social event that just so happens to involve the game.

Not necessarily. As someone who also enjoys getting good at these games, and as someone who's been a part of the arcade scene for over a decade and a half, I can say that the social aspect of arcade gaming is both motivating and productive, in that you not only have other players to compete with, but also have other players analysing your every move and mistake, and can help you work out the kinks in your game plan. Having a number of brains to increase information processing helps greatly, and the social aspect enables a natural sharing of information, either by casual discussion or by observation.

Sure, you can sit in front of an X360 or PC for ten hours a day and get good by copying someone's replays by rote, but you still have to expend more energy studying your own plays to work out where you're going wrong, and what you could do differently. Having others around you as you play means that there's always someone else doing just that for you.

But you don't need an arcade for that that. You can record/save replays and upload them somewhere for other people to watch, or stream your gameplay live. The same goes for your high scores - either use a thread on a messageboard or a replay tracker like Royal Flare. Solicit and listen to feedback.

Obviously the environment isn't the same, but many of the benefits are there even though the shmup community largely doesn't take advantage of this.

[Randorama]

But for the competitive players here, some of the ports released are less than optimal in many areas, especially if you're looking to compare yourself against world players.

We all know. Was this the point that the original author of this thread was trying to make? No.
Have you been on crack, of late?

For the rest of you who play "for fun", the ports are fine.

Your last few posts in this thread are embarassing, in their pretentious elitism. Aside that, the whole "arcade way or the highway" argument is off-topic, since the thread is NOT about going to people and telling them how to enjoy games, or why they should get into debt because "arcade is the only way to compete", and other nonsense.

And you were an administrator on this forum? Unbelievable.

Lock this thread, please.

[Illyrian]

Okay fuck this thread I'm getting the fuck outta here.

Shit flying everywhere.

[Giest118]

So you're either new to the forum and you wish to rehash a flame war that's been done here many, many times over the years.. or you're a new username because you've been banned before.

Either way, it's a useless argument. It's a personal preference. It's safe to say that anyone owning the PCBs either has easy access to the ports, or they don't care to. So no, these people aren't going to change their preference because you think they're wrong.

I wouldn't take any issue if these arcade fundamentalists weren't telling me what the correct way is to enjoy the games I play. They treat their opinions as though they're the holy gospel of absolute truth, and... apparently pointing out the contrary is a bannable offense? Sounds legit. Perhaps after that happens the extremist arcade fundamentalists of this board should suicide bomb some XBox 360s with MushiFutari in them.

The concern is that if Cave (or whoever) are producing games with the clear intention of a port somewhere down the line they'll possibly be diluting the essential qualities that we look for in what we play.

Yeah, I'm sure they'll dilute those qualities. With complete metaphysical certitude. That's the only possible outcome.

Mostly legit examples

It seems to me that all Cave would need to do is... not do any of that shit you just said.

And the Pink Sweets infinite lives example is silly and Pink Sweets players should feel bad for using it. If one of the advantages of arcades is that "you can't cheat," maybe you shouldn't use "but you CAN cheat in the arcade version of THIS game" as an advantage of the arcade over the port.

[PurpBullets]

I didnt feel bad for triggering infinite lives on harder and extended... Felt great.
Was it not confirmed that infinite lives was intentional on the PCB???
Pretty sure it was. They took it out in a rev. and put it back in?
If arcadia excepts those scores...

Yes, that is probably the worst flaw of all the cave ports.
+ taking out the attract mode...
But with flaws & all, I would imagine it is better than nothing...
Which is what alot of people would have ended up with if it never got ported.
I doubt cave accidentally did that.
It seems like they dont want the scores comparable.
Changing font's. All that.

but yes, that is a legitimate complaint.
ports not being an accurate mirror image does bother me.
I will take what I can get though?
Better than nothing.

[brentsg]

They treat their opinions as though they're the holy gospel of absolute truth

This would also appear to be what you're doing.

[emphatic]

This would also appear to be what you're doing.

Schhh, don't upset the Messiah!

[Giest118]

They treat their opinions as though they're the holy gospel of absolute truth

This would also appear to be what you're doing.

Let's assume that's true. How exactly does that make it okay for them to do it as well?

At least I'm attempting to justify my position; half of what I see THEM doing is saying "people who disagree with us are gay fags." Others are actually trying to challenge my claims WHILE calling me a gay fag, and I'm challenging their claims in turn. What I'm doing isn't NEARLY as horrible as you're making it out to be, bro.