How would you feel about PC releases of Cave games?

[Giest118]

Also, if the pure arcade version is so much better, why do you even have the console? Why shell out money for an OBVIOUSLY inferior product? How about you go and get some consistency to go with your opinions, please.

Arrange modes, DLC, being able to practice any stage or boss could be part of it.

Cave should OBVIOUSLY build those features into the arcade PCBs; that way those features will also be better just by virtue of being in the arcades.

[AntiFritz]

Some people I think have way to much money to flaunt around, so they have to justify their purchases.

[trap15]

Arrange modes, DLC, being able to practice any stage or boss could be part of it.

Cave should OBVIOUSLY build those features into the arcade PCBs; that way those features will also be better just by virtue of being in the arcades.

The point is to give an incentive to those who buy the console versions. The PCB is still superior for, say, an actual arcade environment.

[Giest118]

The point is to give an incentive to those who buy the console versions. The PCB is still superior for, say, an actual arcade environment.

But we've already established that the console version is inferior. For maximum quality, the PCB should have every feature.

[Skykid]

and quit fucking whining.

Yeah, I'm the one who's whining, when you're the one constantly bitching about these people whose opinions differ from yours.

Who's bitching?

I just enjoy tormenting people with poor taste.

[Giest118]

I just enjoy tormenting people with poor taste.

So I have poor taste in comparison to your poor taste?

Double negative bitch, my taste is badass.

Any further argument against this claim is obviously motivated by jealousy. Jealousy of HOW BADASS MY TASTE IS.

[Skykid]

I just enjoy tormenting people with poor taste.

So I have poor taste in comparison to your poor taste?

Double negative bitch, my taste is badass.

Any further argument against this claim is obviously motivated by jealousy. Jealousy of HOW BADASS MY TASTE IS.

Whatever you say.

[Giest118]

Whatever you say.

Drat. I've been out-trolled. Well played.

[Ghegs]

Yeah, playing on arcade machines and in an actual arcade enhances the experience of course.

"The experience of playing a game" is so utterly subjective that claiming something like this as The Ultimate Truth makes me facepalm hard. It applies to some people, but certainly not everyone.

(I'm not talking about technical issues like input lag etc. here.)

[emphatic]

PCB is always better as there's no way of cheating using save states and playing on a PC is kinda gay. All of you young kids who claim that emulation is "exactly the same" but have never played a PCB in a cabinet on a beautiful CRT are kidding yourselves. It's like saying that having sex with a transexual and comparing it to an actual woman is "the exact same thing". It might look the same, but the feeling is totally off, it smells wrong etc.

[Ghegs]

I'm not talking about PCB vs. port/emulation, read this line again:

(I'm not talking about technical issues like input lag etc. here.)

To put it another way, let's imagine there's a game that you can play both in an actual arcade with actual arcade hardware, and at home with a system of your choice. No matter where you choose to play it, it has the exact same features, exact same input lag, exact same display, and so on and so forth. Would you play this imaginary game at an arcade or at home? That was the point of my post.

I would play it at home, because there I can control the environment (no other people around to potentially disrupt me while playing, no extra noise, no queues, etc) and I have a much greater degree of choice in controllers. And to bring this back to reality, with my supergun, CMVS and CRT TVs I have the Ultimate Arcade Gaming Setup - ultimate for me, that is. Other people would like to have the authentic arcade environment as well, and that's fine, but I certainly don't want it. Claiming that it objectively "enhances the experience" is just bull. Again, that was the point of my post.

Also, if you think practicing with save states is cheating you're a silly, silly person.

[Illyrian]

The experience of playing in an arcade, fucking up and having people there watching, or doing really well and having people clap you is quite something.

Just this weekend I was hurling credits at mushi ultra in the arcade with Icarus and others watching, it's quite the experience, and a real test of your nerves. Especially with the mockery that accompanies particularly bad runs!

Fucking up on an easy stage and hearing Dan76 yell "RUBBISH!" from behind is one of the funniest and most enjoyable experiences I've had in a long time. Especially as you can then return fire.

Also, watching people like Sapz/Icarus play in person is really good.

[Cagar]

-

[O. Van Bruce]

I have a PAL 360 + Deathsmiles + Daifukkatsu and I still want a PC port on steam so I can play those games wherever I go. If, for some reason, I go to a friends house and I want to show him cave games, I can download it at any moment. It has a mobility than the console, and even less the arcade, will ever have. Did I mention the laptops?

@Yeah Fritz-chan, there is too much money on this people's pockets, to the point they think every one of us should be the same. Anyway, as most of then are old guys, I assume that the genre will die with then... obviously, without tainting the purity of their arcade machines with the dirt of the filthy cassuals. Or so they would like to...

Anyway, it's nice to see some sense in one of the most veteran members of the forum... here I was thinking that the moderation also formed part of the "reactionary right wing"

[Illyrian]

It's not silly at all.

The primary reason I don't own a cab/supergun and buy PCB's apart from lack of space ia that I wouldn't view it as an extra level of enjoyment without other people around.

Part of the fun of games like Mushi on Ultra etc. is having other people in the arcade for me. I wouldn't normally enjoy playing it at home as it's too tough for me, but at the arcade it becomes this awesome experience with people marvelling at you trying ludicrously inpractical dodges in a game mode you don't know. It just is more fun that way.

[Cagar]

-

[BPzeBanshee]

I like how the anti-Cagar argument consists of:

1) "one person can't make a difference" when the whole fucking point of this thread was to get more than one person onto it
2) defend the "pure arcade experience" by talking about team effort and hanging around as a team around places which exist nowhere besides a couple of spots in the big western/asian countries, and
3) bitch and whine about bitching and whining, thus making 'BITCHANDWINECEPTION' - now with 120% bullshit-flavoured alcohol

Now I'm really seeing the "Shumps Farm" humour. Made my day guys.

[Illyrian]

I voted for ports to be on PC earlier in thread. I'll also be the first to say that I am one of the lucky ones to have an arcade within striking distance.

The truth is, that as long as CAVE port games to EITHER the xbox or PC I'll be happy. If there were ports on both I would buy both

[Gus]

I've played at arcades in Japan and I really don't think they're all that. I'd much rather play at home with the luxury of save states/practice modes, easy restarts, and no fucking smoking.

[Randorama]

My two cents on the random topics discussed in this thread, in a pretty chaotic way.

I grew up in an arcade (which, sadly, is no more). I still recall playing Darius standing on my feet, on a stool, as I was too short to see the screen (I was barely 8!).

My uncle and dad had to make up excuses when the police showed up and found me in the arcade: it was illegal, then, for children below 14 years to attend arcades.

I had several fond memories of my late parents playing games with me, as well as several other friends that enriched my games' experience with their human warmth.

The best game-wise experience and human experience, I don't know. I hated consoles and console ports for a while. I bought a Dreamcast in 2000 to play GigaWing. Before that, I only played console games when I was at my friends' places, and we had fun mucking around with NESes, Megadrives and the likes. A great summer day, two PSXes and tons of friends are a sight to behold.

Overall, I think that playing videogames in the arcade is the richest experience, if we look beyond the games themselves. Console games can be ok, but in the right environment. Dunno about PCs, but I had and have fun playing on MAME with my friends, and more recently with my wife.

So, if we want to discuss on which game format (PC, console, arcade) has the "best social environment" behind it, fine. I find it an orthogonal matter to the more important point of Cave making a profit outside their original intended market, Arcades. What matters is $$, for Cave: they need to eat, too.

I also find it orthogonal to the other important point of Cave being able to produce "the same game" on different formats (no lags, no bugs, no extra modes, etc.). I think that Cave guys know best. They know hardware and software, and should be able to do the math for risk assessment, and see if they can get any $$ from this venture.

But then again, this thread should have been locked after Trap15's post. PC ports are very likely not a viable commercial option, even if we would play them at home, they were better than the arcade version, and we would throw the party ever, every time we play them.

Bah, especially to the whole "arcade experience" thing. Anyone who never had junkies asking for spare change while playing Gradius II is a forum tosser.

[Illyrian]

I've played at arcades in Japan and I really don't think they're all that. I'd much rather play at home with the luxury of save states/practice modes, easy restarts, and no fucking smoking.

Fucking casual scrub. You'll never be able to go full shmup level 2 until you play in an arcade with friends. Do you even HAVE friends? Are they scrubs too?

Edit: Randorama, there is an annoying drunk gut who comes to the arcade and hits on people, I think he actually tried it on with Aliquantic when she was trying to play Deathsmiles or something. Then he goes and sits at one od the cabs and reads the Sun.

[MX7]

Cave games are arcade games. They are created for consumption in an arcade context. They work within the limitations of outmoded hardware. They are designed to be simulataniously engrossing to the person actually playing the game while also being attractive to onlookers. They are structured in such a way that that they begin as being particularly easy before getting much harder in order to swiftly kick people off and make more money. Upon failing, the game urges you to insert more money. They are generally presented in an unusual 3:4 aspect ratio. They are not designed for the home market.

Everything that makes Cave games interesting is due to the intrinsic characteristics of them being arcade games. Playing them at home is fun, but it's an undeniably negotiated response. It's a ridiculous situation of course, but it's a ridiculous genre. Of course you can enjoy playing them at home, even on a PC, but it's kind of missing the point.

The closest analogue I can think of would be jazz music, which is improvisational in nature and therefore only really works in a live context. Of course you can buy recordings, and you can even prefer to listen to these recordings, but at this point you have taken jazz and you transformed it into something to suit you. If you take an arcade game out of an arcade, it is still a valid product, it's still really awesome fun, but you are not playing an arcade game.

In order for Cave to keep making great games with the qualities we all enjoy, they need to continue making games for consumption in an arcade context. Frankly, it's probably not going to happen. Many signs point towards SaiDaiOuJou being their last game.

With regards to the specific problems with porting an arcade game to the PC: Icarus et al have outlined these succintly earlier on in the thread.

[THE]

In order for Cave to keep making great games with the qualities we all enjoy, they need to continue making games for consumption in an arcade context. Frankly, it's probably not going to happen. Many signs point towards SaiDaiOuJou being their last game.

Hate me for it, but I think Cave ruined their arcade market themselves by starting the x360 ports. A lot of Japanese people probably don't bother anymore with the original games and just wait until the port arrives. While the ports are not the same game, they are very similar and probably enough for most people. If they just stayed iOS there would be no such harm.

[Gus]

stupid bullshit

This is dumb for a number of reasons, the most obvious being the fact that the Touhou series (fuck off haters) has seen some amazing games and has the respect of some of the best shmup players in the world while being made entirely for the PC market. It is entirely possible for a game to include the features that attract the hardcore players without made for the arcades.

[MX7]

stupid bullshit

This is dumb for a number of reasons, the most obvious being the fact that the Touhou series (fuck off haters) has seen some amazing games and has the respect of some of the best shmup players in the world while being made entirely for the PC market. It is entirely possible for a game to include the features that attract the hardcore players without made for the arcades.

Yes the Touhou series is awesome, and yes, it's possible to play them for score at the highest possible level. They are not arcade games however, though they do play lip service to several generic arcade STG conventions. So yes, what you say is true, a made for PC game works best in the context of being a PC game. But I don't understand what it has to do with Cave games working best in an arcade context because they are arcade games...?

[Gus]

It is entirely possible for a game to include the features that attract the hardcore players without made for the arcades.

[MX7]

It is entirely possible for a game to include the features that attract the hardcore players without made for the arcades.

That's very true! And games like Touhou do this admirably.

But we're talking about Cave games. Which are made for the arcade.

[Illyrian]

Gus, are you actually so stupid that you can't see the design differences between Touhou games and CAVE shmups? Seriously?

You do understand the differences right?

Because the differences in pacing, structure and gameplay could not be any bigger

[Gus]

It is entirely possible for a game to include the features that attract the hardcore players without made for the arcades.

That's very true! And games like Touhou do this admirably.

But we're talking about Cave games. Which are made for the arcade.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. I've played Cave games in arcades as well as extensively on ports and I can say the claims that it's this completely different experience is a load of bullshit. The difference is simply a matter of convenience and I'd argue games such as Futari Ultra benefit a great deal from easily being able to practice stages and not having to gouge out 100 yen every time you fuck up the first stage. Note that this is all from the perspective of someone who cares about getting good at these games. It's understandable to think differently if your only way of enjoying these Ultra modes is to randomly flail around the screen while your friends laugh.

Gus, are you actually so stupid that you can't see the design differences between Touhou games and CAVE shmups? Seriously?

You do understand the differences right?

Because the differences in pacing, structure and gameplay could not be any bigger

Yeah, games programmed by different people play differently. Imagine that.

[Illyrian]

I'll repeat my previous inquiry with regards to whether you actually have ever played shmups in an arcade with friends around you.

I actually believe it really is a different experience. If you haven't ever done that you really just don't know what you're talking about.

I suspect though, that there are very few people who can stand to be around you