NOVICE=NOGLORY

[mdsfx]

I just 1CC'd Espgaluda 2 Novice Mode on 360. Amazing, I know. I'm not impressed either. Even for players like me that are somewhat new to the genre and still get obliterated in the Arcade mode by stage 3, Novice Mode is so stripped of challenge that a 1CC without losing a life feels completely void of accomplishment.

I had a similar feeling when I 1CC'd Futari 1.5 Novice (although I will admit it was more of a challenge for me than Galuda 2). Novice mode was exponentially easier than it's arcade counterpart (where I would hit my wall at the end of stage 3) and I felt as though there should have been a difficulty/mode somewhere in between. It's a hard place to be when you're trying to improve your skills and your choice is a walk through a botanical garden or a skydive through a blistering inferno.

I'm not really sure I have a question here or if it's just a statement. Maybe some of you feel the same way I do... or maybe I'm just being a pu$$y and need to jump out of that plane and into the inferno.

[Giest118]

One of the few Novice modes I actually really like is DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu, because it makes chaining hilariously easy. Yeah, there's no challenge to getting 30,000 hits from stage 5 when your chain can't break, like, ever, but it still makes me smile.

The comparison between Novice and the regular game is kind of like the comparison between eating popcorn and doing exercise. They're enjoyable for totally different reasons, while only one will actually make you feel like you accomplished something.

[AntiFritz]

I find 2-alling daifukkatsu novice pretty fun too.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's a hard place to be when you're trying to improve your skills and your choice is a walk through a botanical garden or a skydive through a blistering inferno.

1.5 Original isn't that bad I'd say, but it definitely sounds like you ought to buy the Black Label DLC. BL Original and Maniac are significantly easier to 1cc than their 1.5 counterparts, due mostly to the massively upgraded shot types (tough to score on though, lots of pointblanking).

I'm glad Futari included the Novice mode, it's a good start for a bullet hell beginner (although I think the autobombs should have taken your entire bomb stock to motivate players to get good at bombing before getting hit). Maniac and Ultra are challenging but still forgiving enough that new players can work at a clear without getting frustrated. Novice Original is too easy though... it's basically for young children honestly.

Also, the latter half of stage 3 requires rushing around the screen to quickly take out the woodlice aggressively; you can't just sit at the bottom. This is probably the thing that causes it to be a wall for new players. A lot of stuff in the game is easier than it looks though; I know I used to find things tricky that I'm still discovering "oh, that's actually very easy" when you simply wait and make tap dodges at the last second.

[chempop]

DFK-Black Label - Strong Type - is a great novice mode! The bullet patterns using Strong are nuts, but rather manageable in novice.

I also used to enjoy playing Mushi (ps2) Ultra on very easy and easy, it's about as difficult as original or maniac on defaults, plus the patterns are X5 as dense.

[Kiken]

I think the big problem with Cave's Novice modes is that they strip away too much of the original bullet patterns. While the concept of having a simpler pattern that demonstrates the structure of the more complex pattern would be an excellent learning tool, most of the Novice patterns have massive chunks missing which just leave gaping holes. I guess this once again falls into the realm of the fact that none of our genre really has a well thought-out tutorial/training mode.

[Deca]

If you're not struggling you're not learning. Take the plunge.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

none of our genre really has a well thought-out tutorial/training mode.

Doesn't the DS port of Ketsui have a detailed tutorial? Of course, that's only one game out of many, but I heard it was supposed to be pretty well done.

[AntiFritz]

none of our genre really has a well thought-out tutorial/training mode.

Doesn't the DS port of Ketsui have a detailed tutorial? Of course, that's only one game out of many, but I heard it was supposed to be pretty well done.

Yeah from memory it does (i haven't played death label much in a year or more). Doesn't the espgaluda 2 port have a big tutorial thing (like ketsui death labels evac reports, their obviously in Japanese)?

[Illyrian]

I just 1CC'd Espgaluda 2 Novice Mode on 360. Amazing, I know. I'm not impressed either. Even for players like me that are somewhat new to the genre and still get obliterated in the Arcade mode by stage 3, Novice Mode is so stripped of challenge that a 1CC without losing a life feels completely void of accomplishment.

I had a similar feeling when I 1CC'd Futari 1.5 Novice (although I will admit it was more of a challenge for me than Galuda 2). Novice mode was exponentially easier than it's arcade counterpart (where I would hit my wall at the end of stage 3) and I felt as though there should have been a difficulty/mode somewhere in between. It's a hard place to be when you're trying to improve your skills and your choice is a walk through a botanical garden or a skydive through a blistering inferno.

I'm not really sure I have a question here or if it's just a statement. Maybe some of you feel the same way I do... or maybe I'm just being a pu$$y and need to jump out of that plane and into the inferno.

I'll say what I usually say:
Touhou on easy
Blue Wish Resurrection
Eden's Aegis
Touhou on Normal
Cave 1cc's

In that order.

[guigui]

I like those novice modes in Cave Games, they allow you to see further and clearer in the game and scoring system. Here is how I work for 1CC (or 1sissy !) a Cave game on X360 :

-Play 3 credits in normal, die by stage 3
-Play Novice until I 1-life it and learn ennemies placements, scoring system, extends and such
-Come back to normal.

[O. Van Bruce]

Even if you don't lose a life, Ultra Futari on Novice is quite a sight to watch with all those bullets. I've managed to 1cc original on normal difficulty, but maybe, for a person with problems on normal, Novice Futari Ultra ca be a good challenge and a fun one too.

[Kiken]

none of our genre really has a well thought-out tutorial/training mode.

Doesn't the DS port of Ketsui have a detailed tutorial? Of course, that's only one game out of many, but I heard it was supposed to be pretty well done.

Yeah from memory it does (i haven't played death label much in a year or more). Doesn't the espgaluda 2 port have a big tutorial thing (like ketsui death labels evac reports, their obviously in Japanese)?

ESP 2's tutorial mode is more of just an expanded explanation of the controls/functions of the game (you're watching videos, not actually playing). I suppose Ketsui DS may count though.

[Gus]

If you're not struggling you're not learning. Take the plunge.

[AntiFritz]

Doesn't the DS port of Ketsui have a detailed tutorial? Of course, that's only one game out of many, but I heard it was supposed to be pretty well done.

Yeah from memory it does (i haven't played death label much in a year or more). Doesn't the espgaluda 2 port have a big tutorial thing (like ketsui death labels evac reports, their obviously in Japanese)?

ESP 2's tutorial mode is more of just an expanded explanation of the controls/functions of the game (you're watching videos, not actually playing). I suppose Ketsui DS may count though.

Oh well in that case ketsui death label doesn't have that then I don't think.

[Kiken]

Oh well in that case ketsui death label doesn't have that then I don't think.

Yeah, I know Ketsui DS has the "Ask IDK-san" guide, but the player doesn't really interact with that. I'm thinking something more along the lines of say, the Skullgirls tutorial mode. The game has about 30 different missions (for lack of a better term) that start out at the most introductory level (ie: this is how you block) and slowly build up to more advanced techniques (perform a multi-hit combo that mixes up chaining with an aerial rave follow-up, as well an air-dash and both special-move into super-move cancelling thrown in for good measure). Each mission starts out with an explanation and then asks the player to perform said action. Granted, I think adding a short video to reinforce the text would have been a really good idea as would displaying a simple controller layout so the player can also see exactly what the inputs should look like.

[Giest118]

I'll say what I usually say:
Touhou on easy
Blue Wish Resurrection
Eden's Aegis
Touhou on Normal
Cave 1cc's

In that order.

... Order of what? Difficulty from least to greatest?

Because BWR and Eden's Aegis on Hell mode are certainly more difficult than Touhou on Normal. If you'd specified, like, Heaven or Original mode on those two, I wouldn't bother with this post. :V

[O. Van Bruce]

I'll say what I usually say:
Touhou on easy
Blue Wish Resurrection
Eden's Aegis
Touhou on Normal
Cave 1cc's

In that order.

... Order of what? Difficulty from least to greatest?

Because BWR and Eden's Aegis on Hell mode are certainly more difficult than Touhou on Normal. If you'd specified, like, Heaven or Original mode on those two, I wouldn't bother with this post. :V

That's probably easiest to hardest 1cc.

[Obscura]

Eden's Aegis.

How setting dependant is this one?

My experience is that with autobomb off and wait off, this one is no joke, even on Original.

[mdsfx]

I like those novice modes in Cave Games, they allow you to see further and clearer in the game and scoring system. Here is how I work for 1CC (or 1sissy !) a Cave game on X360 :

-Play 3 credits in normal, die by stage 3
-Play Novice until I 1-life it and learn ennemies placements, scoring system, extends and such
-Come back to normal.

I can see the merit in what you're saying, but Galuda 2's Novice will quite literally give you enemies that don't fire a single shot at you. I could not believe what I was playing when I fired up stage 1 Novice to see enemies simply make an appearance before flying off. Simplifying bullet patterns is one thing, but lifeless enemies is borderline hilarious.

[mdsfx]

...it definitely sounds like you ought to buy the Black Label DLC. BL Original and Maniac are significantly easier to 1cc than their 1.5 counterparts, due mostly to the massively upgraded shot types...

...Also, the latter half of stage 3 requires rushing around the screen to quickly take out the woodlice aggressively; you can't just sit at the bottom. This is probably the thing that causes it to be a wall for new players.

I actually have this DLC, but haven't given it much time. Maybe I'll makes this my next goal.

Also, I know what I need to do on 1.5 Stage 3, I think it's just a matter of a little bit of memorization and execution at this point. I've almost got it and Stage 4 is easier for me.

[O. Van Bruce]

I like those novice modes in Cave Games, they allow you to see further and clearer in the game and scoring system. Here is how I work for 1CC (or 1sissy !) a Cave game on X360 :

-Play 3 credits in normal, die by stage 3
-Play Novice until I 1-life it and learn ennemies placements, scoring system, extends and such
-Come back to normal.

I can see the merit in what you're saying, but Galuda 2's Novice will quite literally give you enemies that don't fire a single shot at you. I could not believe what I was playing when I fired up stage 1 Novice to see enemies simply make an appearance before flying off. Simplifying bullet patterns is one thing, but lifeless enemies is borderline hilarious.

Yeah, I agree with you completely... if there is something in which Touhou is infinitely better than Cave shmups is their "easy mode"...

Touhou Easy Mode is quite enjoyable and challenging in almost every game that it has one

-------

About a tutorial mode, it's not that easy on a shmup. On a fighter, the movements and tecniques needed to control and master one charater are allways the same and flowcharts of each character can be easily made. But it's not like that on a shmup, basically, as the game demands reflex and intelligence in order to get what you want (in a more abstract way than in fighters: you can make "predefined patterns" on a fighter).

You can actually teach someone to know when to guide the bullets, when to shoot, when to everything, but next shmup will have a different challenge than the other. That's what's good about shmups... new ones always have new challenges that the previous titles didn't have... and the way to clear then is usually a self-reflexion issue.

PD: About the tutorial mode on Skull girls... the real merit of that concpt comes from BlazBlue... better tutorial mode i've met in any game in my whole life. It was, actually, the tutorial mode that made me play fighters with a controller.

[Kiken]

About a tutorial mode, it's not that easy on a shmup. On a fighter, the movements and tecniques needed to control and master one charater are allways the same and flowcharts of each character can be easily made. But it's not like that on a shmup, basically, as the game demands reflex and intelligence in order to get what you want (in a more abstract way than in fighters: you can make "predefined patterns" on a fighter).

You can actually teach someone to know when to guide the bullets, when to shoot, when to everything, but next shmup will have a different challenge than the other. That's what's good about shmups... new ones always have new challenges that the previous titles didn't have... and the way to clear then is usually a self-reflexion issue.

PD: About the tutorial mode on Skull girls... the real merit of that concpt comes from BlazBlue... better tutorial mode i've met in any game in my whole life. It was, actually, the tutorial mode that made me play fighters with a controller.

I was just citing Skullgirls as a recent example. My point is, there are fundamentals to playing this genre that many of us take for granted. Fundamentals that I think could be trained in a well designed tutorial mode (or at least, make new/inexperienced players aware of them). Certainly, score systems are going to change from one game to the next and that sort of thing would be very focused.

I know that there's the 'how to train' thread on this forum, but I have been thinking about doing some basic tutorial vids demonstrating various techniques that many of us rely on.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

My point is, there are fundamentals to playing this genre that many of us take for granted.

I'm guessing you mean more than telling noobs not to fly around the screen erratically like they're having an epileptic fit? :p

I could have sworn I'd seen a doujin game that had this, where it was basically a 'training' shmup that taught stuff like streaming, crossing through waves, misdirecting bullets, etc. But yeah, it's really the sort of thing that should be more available; it'd probably make the genre more accessible if people knew about these basics.

[Deca]

Also, I know what I need to do on 1.5 Stage 3, I think it's just a matter of a little bit of memorization and execution at this point. I've almost got it and Stage 4 is easier for me.

Memorize where the large enemies pop out, specifically the pillbugs, and take them out as quickly as possible. Stay on your toes and move proactively so they can't force you back, you want to be baiting their shots as much as you can manage. Beyond that it's straight up dodging skills that you'll just develop over time, there's no shame in using a bomb here.

Also you're going to be amazed how much easier BL Original is than 1.5. I can clear BL Orig just about every time I play it and it took me a couple weeks to get my 1.5 clear. Hell BL Maniac is considerably easier for me than 1.5 Original.

[mdsfx]

I know that there's the 'how to train' thread on this forum, but I have been thinking about doing some basic tutorial vids demonstrating various techniques that many of us rely on.

I think that's a brilliant idea.

[mdsfx]

Memorize ...

Thanks for the info. Also, I feel no shame in bombing!

[casualcoder]

The one and only time I ever tried novice mode was a few weeks back when I tried the esp2 novice mode just to see the difference in difficulty. As you said, I 1ccd it and had a score of about 200mill but didnt feel much of an accomplishment - I also posted about it on here as an aside to the topic of high scores not being recorded, and with the exception of Gus, everyone was encouraging. Although I felt like a quadriplegic being treated with wounded puppy-dog glances, not realizing that the novice mode was not my goal. I've gotten myself to the point now in normal mode where I can reach the last level with 1-3 lives but I end up panicking and losing them all well before the final boss (who actually seems very beatable with 2-3 lives in the coffers, without even needing to properly strategize.

Still, going 5 levels on normal mode is infinitely more gratifying than novice which teaches you very little. If you are burning out, my advise is to just get to the highest level you can with, say 3 lives left, and then keep restarting the level you are dying on the most until you've mapped out the pattern and strategy of choice until that level seems much easier. It is interesting how level 3 seems hard until you master it, then level 4 seems tough, then you master that... Eventually it's easy to see how the challenge is mastering all of the levels and then chaining them together without panicking if you are on a good run. That's the real trick I think. In the end, I think the difficulty in normal is about right in all of the cage titles and I have yet to 1cc any except for deathsmiles - but I'm close and that's what keeps me playing.

[1up]

I just 1CC'd Espgaluda 2 Novice Mode on 360. Amazing, I know. I'm not impressed either. Even for players like me that are somewhat new to the genre and still get obliterated in the Arcade mode by stage 3, Novice Mode is so stripped of challenge that a 1CC without losing a life feels completely void of accomplishment.

I got the same feeling when I got DDP DFK for XBOX 360. I consider myself below average, but not complete shit. I breezed through novice and I also thought that it would've been nice to have something in between. Usually I get destroyed on stage 3 or 4 and have no chance in hell in stage 5. I keep playing though and after giving it some thought, I found that I did in fact develop some skills to help me get better at Cave games.

1. Never stay at the bottom of the screen. I don't feel comfortable staying at the top half of the screen point blakcing enemies, so I found what works for me is to stay at center or just below center. This way if a fast'ish pattern approaches I can move down while dodging, giving me more time to figure out a route.

2. When the screen is cleared of enemies and the next wave is about to come in, I will go to the left side of the screen. At first I would just stay at the middle of the screen but would almost always get trapped emidiately. When on the left side, the enemies will concentrate fire in that direction, and you can tap right and have all that room to move in.

3. After a few credits you figure out what part of the game has crazy patterns you can't dodge. Know when they come and bomb it. I always regret not using a bomb if I die with some in stock.

4. After a few credits you will also figure out where the large enemies appears. so get ready and take them out fast before they fill the screen with projectiles.

That's a few things that I've learned to help me work towards getting a better. Dodging bullets in general will come to you in time by playing the games. I also think the auto bomb feature in DDP DKJ is great as I then get to see stage 5

[Gus]

Still, going 5 levels on normal mode is infinitely more gratifying than novice which teaches you very little. If you are burning out, my advise is to just get to the highest level you can with, say 3 lives left, and then keep restarting the level you are dying on the most until you've mapped out the pattern and strategy of choice until that level seems much easier.

Or you could just use practice mode and study replays.