Anyone have Cave pcbs on a route? Or on loan in a Arcade?

Tokyo-J · Post by **Tokyo-J** » Sat May 05, 2012 1:39 pm

Just wondering if anyone have Cave pcbs on a route? Or on loan in a Arcade?

Was contemplating putting DOJ in a local store and see how well it did. Would be interesting to see if people would make a trip to play a Cave PCB the right way in public.

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Sat May 05, 2012 2:14 pm

Tokyo-J wrote: play a Cave PCB the right way

IT BEGINS

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat May 05, 2012 3:33 pm

That would highly rely on local interest. Pretty much impossible to judge?

I think SFKhoa or jonny5 did this once.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sat May 05, 2012 3:42 pm

DOJ is not a beginner friendly game. Unless you have people from shmups forum near your location, its not going to do well.

And yes, I've put Cave PCBs in a real arcade. Espgaluda and Mushihemesama did well as they are more accessible to beginners.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Sat May 05, 2012 4:42 pm

"beginner friendly" is so stupid, just put all three of them in there, let the players pick whatever they want. besides, comparing first loop of doj/first loop of ketsui/normal espgaluda, doj would definitely be the easiest with espgaluda being hardest simply because of !!!!wakou jakou!!!!.

i would highly recommend you get a doj black label since it's a little more balanced and/or easier (and you can pick the original version if you want), but it's stupid rare. of course at this point you might be better off just getting sdoj.

O. Van Bruce · Post by **O. Van Bruce** » Sat May 05, 2012 4:53 pm

Despatche wrote:"beginner friendly" is so stupid, just put all three of them in there, let the players pick whatever they want. besides, comparing first loop of doj/first loop of ketsui/normal espgaluda, doj would definitely be the easiest with espgaluda being hardest simply because of !!!!wakou jakou!!!!.

i would highly recommend you get a doj black label since it's a little more balanced and/or easier (and you can pick the original version if you want), but it's stupid rare. of course at this point you might be better off just getting sdoj.

I't not about easiness... it's about of rewarding difficulty: you are paying to play ----> let me play at least 10 to 15 minutes without paying another credit! Espgaluda and Mushihimesama do a better job on that than Ketsui and DOJ.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Sat May 05, 2012 5:03 pm

no they don't. espgaluda as a whole is pretty rough normally, i'd put it above doj even without jakou or bothering to score. mushi original is easy, but that's the point; in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the would-be arcadegoers in this situation would go "well i just beat the game on one credit there's nothing else to do" and never touch the game again.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat May 05, 2012 5:06 pm

O. Van Bruce wrote:
Despatche wrote:"beginner friendly" is so stupid, just put all three of them in there, let the players pick whatever they want. besides, comparing first loop of doj/first loop of ketsui/normal espgaluda, doj would definitely be the easiest with espgaluda being hardest simply because of !!!!wakou jakou!!!!.

i would highly recommend you get a doj black label since it's a little more balanced and/or easier (and you can pick the original version if you want), but it's stupid rare. of course at this point you might be better off just getting sdoj.
I't not about easiness... it's about of rewarding difficulty: you are paying to play ----> let me play at least 10 to 15 minutes without paying another credit! Espgaluda and Mushihimesama do a better job on that than Ketsui and DOJ.

Arcades exist to take your money, not to entertain you for a certain period. If you go into an arcade hoping to win every time, you've already lost.

O. Van Bruce · Post by **O. Van Bruce** » Sat May 05, 2012 5:26 pm

Elixir wrote:
O. Van Bruce wrote:
Despatche wrote:"beginner friendly" is so stupid, just put all three of them in there, let the players pick whatever they want. besides, comparing first loop of doj/first loop of ketsui/normal espgaluda, doj would definitely be the easiest with espgaluda being hardest simply because of !!!!wakou jakou!!!!.

i would highly recommend you get a doj black label since it's a little more balanced and/or easier (and you can pick the original version if you want), but it's stupid rare. of course at this point you might be better off just getting sdoj.
I't not about easiness... it's about of rewarding difficulty: you are paying to play ----> let me play at least 10 to 15 minutes without paying another credit! Espgaluda and Mushihimesama do a better job on that than Ketsui and DOJ.
Arcades exist to take your money, not to entertain you for a certain period. If you go into an arcade hoping to win every time, you've already lost.

you get 10 -15 minutes -> maybe you reach stage 3 and then die...

And About Espgaluda and Mushi... I thought they were the easier arcade games that Cave has released... well, I haven't played Akai Katana Arcade...

Obscura · Post by **Obscura** » Sat May 05, 2012 5:45 pm

O. Van Bruce wrote:you get 10 -15 minutes -> maybe you reach stage 3 and then die...

And About Espgaluda and Mushi... I thought they were the easier arcade games that Cave has released... well, I haven't played Akai Katana Arcade...

They are, Despatche is insane if he thinks that making it to Jakou is harder than making it to st 5 boss in DOJ.

Hell, making it to the stage 4 boss in DOJ is harder than making it to Jakou.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:14 pm

hey, i've played both, more or less equally. doj stage 4 is about as hard as ddp stage 5, and you can bombspam both just as hard. the whole game is comparable to ddp, but without the "pop quiz" known as ddp stage 4... that's pretty much the design's point.

when i first played doj/ket/esp: getting to doj stage 4 was pretty easy (easier than getting to stage 5 of ddp even, especially because there's no "ddp stage 4" in doj), ketsui seemed really hard (still can barely make it out of stage 2 and i have no idea what to do in stage 3), and espgaluda was at least harder than doj (i've made it to stage 4 once and i'm still not sure how). i've experimented with and without the various system features and got similar impressions.

you can go on about personal experience all day, but so can i. i have very little experience with ddp because i never paid attention to that game, and doj is quite different anyway. i typically try to avoid bombs and such, so i think i can judge raw difficulty pretty well!

o. van bruce: espgaluda's surprisingly tough (it's built just like esprade), as is mushi if you want to play on maniac and ultra. otherwise mushi original is among the easiest cave's done, along with stuff like deathsmiles, mushi futari black original, regular akai katana, and i suppose the first loop of regular dfk.

casualcoder · Post by **casualcoder** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:23 pm

I agree with the idea that, as an arcade patron, it's easier to retain you as a quarter-pumper if you are eased in with a 10 minute-long first play. A game like espgaluda is perfect for that because an absolute beginner could easily get in 10 minutes on the first credit and get a sense that they were really challenged, and wan to keep playing.

A game like doj, to the uninitiated, is one of those games that seems to put up a wall of impossible all at once which leaves many feeling "this is impossible" and think its a rip off. These, of course, are not MY sentiments, but when trying to expose gamers to the fine art of the shmup, you would expect these attitudes, so yeah game selection does matter. I think of all of the games in caves catalog, the most beginner-friendly are, deathsmiles, Espgaluda, mushi futari, and ddpdfk. Probably in that order.

Obscura · Post by **Obscura** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:34 pm

Despatche wrote:hey, i've played both, more or less equally. doj stage 4 is about as hard as ddp stage 5, and you can bombspam both just as hard. the whole game is comparable to ddp, but without the "pop quiz" known as ddp stage 4... that's pretty much the design's point.

when i first played doj/ket/esp: getting to doj stage 4 was pretty easy (easier than getting to stage 5 of ddp even, especially because there's no "ddp stage 4" in doj), ketsui seemed really hard (still can barely make it out of stage 2 and i have no idea what to do in stage 3), and espgaluda was at least harder than doj (i've made it to stage 4 once and i'm still not sure how). i've experimented with and without the various system features and got similar impressions.

you can go on about personal experience all day, but so can i. i have very little experience with ddp because i never paid attention to that game, and doj is quite different anyway. i typically try to avoid bombs and such, so i think i can judge raw difficulty pretty well!

o. van bruce: espgaluda's surprisingly tough (it's built just like esprade), as is mushi if you want to play on maniac and ultra. otherwise mushi original is among the easiest cave's done, along with stuff like deathsmiles, mushi futari black original, regular akai katana, and i suppose the first loop of regular dfk.

If you're trying to avoid bombs and such, why aren't you playing as Exy in DOJ? Then you certainly won't be able to bombspam stage 4!

I've made it to the final stage in both Ketsui and Espgaluda. Ketsui's final stage, I made it there once and died like almost immediately- and that was after a few weeks of playing almost nothing but Ketsui. Espgaluda, I haven't even played much, and I've made it to Jakou, and can make it to stage 5 on a pretty decent percentage of my credits. That game is so much easier; when in doubt, kakusei. DOJ is far, far harder than Espgaluda, and probably a touch harder than Ketsui (although its boss fights are probably easier in general than Ketsui's, which is one of the things I like about the game; I'd rather have tough stages with bosses that aren't much tougher than easy-ish stages with insane bosses). I've never made it to DOJ's 5th stage.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:42 pm

idk, when i think "impossible", i think of that CAT SUEY over there. i really do feel bad for all these people getting scared by doj because it's not a frightening game, it seems more like the kind of game you can just go into and screw around with whatever you want without any of it being confusing.

and yeah, i almost exclusively use exy. if you completely ignore bombs across shotia/leinyan/exy, exy actually makes the game a bit easier, since you have no other weakness. meanwhile, ketsui is definitely harder than espgaluda but there's no way in hell doj tops any of these unless you want to bring in loops or something stupid like max hyper rank, which means we have to bring in scoring... and all things considered, doj is probably the hardest to actually execute everything in. nothing wrong with that, people don't like scoring anyway. otherwise, ketsui stages are pretty hard too! game's just hard, period. i really don't know why everyone gets scared of doj when ketsui exists.

galuda's an easier game than esprade, sure, but it's still not that easy, especially when you start screwing around with some of what the game offers. and let's not get started on galuda ii.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:18 pm

Despatche wrote:espgaluda as a whole is pretty rough normally, i'd put it above doj even without jakou or bothering to score.

You just lost any and all credibility that you had.

BareKnuckleRoo · Post by **BareKnuckleRoo** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:31 pm

Espgaluda's difficulty isn't nearly as hard as DOJ; both characters can tear through stuff at a decent pace, and you're pretty much going to get both score extends by the end of the game even if you're just playing for survival by saving up Kakusei to blow away bosses or difficult spam enemies. Scoring obviously means you can't reserve 500 Kakusei for emergencies, but beginners always have that option, and the bullets don't ever seem to get terribly speedy (unless you're in overmode, lol). It's still not as easy as a Futari BL Original clear, but that's mostly because Reco blows everything away before they even get a chance to attack.

Even the few 1cc difficulty lists have a DOJ 1-ALL rated harder than Espgaluda. Definitely agree that Ketsui is tough as nails though. That last part of stage 5 I have huge issues with. ;_;

DragonInstall · Post by **DragonInstall** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:53 pm

DOJ easier than Espgaluda?

I don't think anyone would agree with you on that.

O. Van Bruce · Post by **O. Van Bruce** » Sat May 05, 2012 8:00 pm

DragonInstall wrote:DOJ easier than Espgaluda?

I don't think anyone would agree with you on that.

maybe he has a real problem with trasnvestites and thus, he cannot concentrate enough on the game...

kyuzo · Post by **kyuzo** » Sat May 05, 2012 9:36 pm

Tokyo-J wrote:Was contemplating putting DOJ in a local store and see how well it did. Would be interesting to see if people would make a trip to play a Cave PCB the right way in public.

DOJ is pretty bad for new players, I've had a decent range of cave games in my cabs at work and DOJ was by far the least popular. Futari bl seemed the most popular, and Akai katana and progear got a bit of a bonus for the art style, but other than those most people didn't consider the games very different.

Ps one person even described the switch from Ibara bl to sdoj as "mostly the same game but with different assets" (and then asked if I had joust)

BareKnuckleRoo · Post by **BareKnuckleRoo** » Sat May 05, 2012 10:46 pm

kyuzo wrote:Ps one person even described the switch from Ibara bl to sdoj as "mostly the same game but with different assets" (and then asked if I had joust)

For the sake of my sanity I wish I didn't believe you.

Post by **spadgy** » Sat May 05, 2012 11:50 pm

I've loaned Cave PCB's several times to Casino; a local, small arcade in London, UK. There's a good group of regulars there from this very forum, and we go down there all the time, but I think the place doesn't make much from those cabs. it seems to generate its cash from gambling machines. Still, if you've got no outlays and a good community to tap into, you can at least get a nice satisfaction from contributing to the scene, and maybe earn a small amount of cash.

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:03 am

spadgy wrote:I've loaned Cave PCB's several times to Casino; a local, small arcade in London, UK. There's a good group of regulars there from this very forum, and we go down there all the time, but I think the place doesn't make much from those cabs. it seems to generate its cash from gambling machines. Still, if you've got no outlays and a good community to tap into, you can at least get a nice satisfaction from contributing to the scene, and maybe earn a small amount of cash.

Well spadgy, 'casinos' are generally known for getting their profits from gambling machines, not shmups.

Shame it's so difficult for someone in US/UK to get anything from this though. I guess getting an arcade going where I live is nigh-impossible then. Too many aboriginals would break the cabinets if it were to ever to go public, just like the ones at the cinema and Einsteins beforehand.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:40 am

why am i responding to this

trap15 wrote:You just lost any and all credibility that you had.

you just lost all credibility with this claim, because i never had any credibility to begin with

BareknuckleRoo wrote:Even the few 1cc difficulty lists have a DOJ 1-ALL rated harder than Espgaluda.

i actually liked that post until you brought this up, those lists are incredibly sketchy and there's way more 'unbelievable' stuff in there than "gal is harder than doj"

DragonInstall wrote:I don't think anyone would agree with you on that.

well no, it's not exactly something people are supposed to agree on

only things that really matter are "ket is harder than doj" and "doj is better than ddp"

kyuzo's post makes me more ill than i already am

doj b-l is awesome and ddp c-l actually makes the game worth it again

i can tell you're crazy because the doj stage 2 boss and the stage 3 spinners are not difficult whatsoever

Obscura · Post by **Obscura** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:41 am

Ketsui isn't harder than DOJ. Its bosses are harder than DOJ's (aside from DOJ st 2 boss, fucking cunt), but its stages are easier by miles.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun May 06, 2012 7:53 am

How about we just agree difficulty is subjective. I've cleared Espgaluda II with several lives to spare but I've only seen DOJ BL's 1-5 one time. Of course that's mainly because I fucking hate the game but still.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Sun May 06, 2012 9:50 am

well i dont have to guess.

wanna put cave games on operating? make sure to have a crowd around that plays this kind of stuff first, it still wont make any money but atleast youll make someone happy, if you put DOJ at your local chuck'e'cheese thinking people will get drawn in youre wrong, it wont even pay for its own electricity.

wanna make money off a game, put sf:3s in there, still does well.

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:09 am

In Seattle, there's a Ketsui and an Espgaluda II currently installed at Full Tilt Ice Cream in Ballard. The local Shmuppers get together on a fairly regular basis over there, but I haven't made it over yet.

marus · Post by **marus** » Mon May 07, 2012 3:14 am

Actually Ketsui was just recently swapped out with Raiden Fighters Jet. The Ketsui board was being loaned to the operator by a friend, but ended up getting swapped out because it wasn't making too much money (Esprade was in the cabinet prior to Ketsui, and apparently Ketsui was making on average less than half of what Esprade was pulling in). Most of their revenue though comes from pinball; the impression I get about the other stuff (fighters, shmups, rhythm) is that, while they rake in a decent amount, they're more just there for variety and to please the local gaming scenes.

Also kinda O.T., but a few of us shmuppers meet there every Tuesday night, if anyone else is interested in checking the place out!

wnka · Post by **wnka** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:25 am

Yea, that was my PCB, I let the operator (bobbyconover) borrow it and it was there for about a month before he decided to pull it out. I doubt it paid for the power the cab consumed, so I totally understand the decision to swap it out. RFJ will probably do better.

Tuesday's at Full Tilt are where it's at. This week, Marus continues his quest for an Espgaluda II 1ALL.

We should probably post something in the meetup thread, although I think all 6 of us in Seattle already know what's up.

ancestral-knowledge · Post by **ancestral-knowledge** » Mon May 07, 2012 7:58 am

I beg you to not put in DOJ !

As far as i remember it's very hard/expensive to get DOJ BL as a PCB. But since this is the only good version of DOJ i would just not bother putting DOJ in a cab at all. The White Label version fucking sucks. Don't even consider it! I nearly quit shmups altogether because of fucking white label (PS2 version) rage. Only the combined effort of skykid and some others on this forum explaining thoroughly why the black label version is a superior experience turned me over to reevaluate the black label version of the game again and they were right.

The black label version is good though very hard for beginners to get into. Save that money and buy a mushi PCB. I can't say anything about the galudas since i haven't played anyone of them.

shmups.system11.org

Anyone have Cave pcbs on a route? Or on loan in a Arcade?

Anyone have Cave pcbs on a route? Or on loan in a Arcade?

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